Analysing Kohli’s match winning ability in tests outside India

[ShoonyaSifar]

11 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

So, all those scoring match winning big runs like Williamson did in his series win in UAE, Smith in SA and over the world, Dravid in our overseas wins are all useless and those who pad up their runs in draws and losses are great players? Wonderful!

Pad up their runs in losses and draws? You are saying this about some of these knocks below

2nd Test in Aus - 123

1st Test in England - 149 and 51

2nd Test in SA - 153

 

This you call padding up stats. Well done.

 

[dial_100]

9 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

So, all those scoring match winning big runs like Williamson did in his series win in UAE, Smith in SA and over the world, Dravid in our overseas wins are all useless and those who pad up their runs in draws and losses are great players? Wonderful!

It depends on how you want to use information. Usually, game statistic is not plane business numbers and Profit and loss type analysis. I guy part of a great team could score with a healthy average and show lot of wins. On the other hand, a guy with a very weak team could show extremely strong average but have no wins to show. 

 

My cricketing sense says, that as much I enjoy winning team, I also enjoy watching the fight shown by a guy in a losing cause. This is cricket and people have lot of emotions with win/lose type of statistics. I remember watching so many games where I could tell from the body language of SRT that hey could easily win even if the target looked impossible but 10 other idiots just wouldnt stop showing their antiques while capable batsman waited on the other end. 

 

I am sure similar thing could have happened with Inzi or Lara or Jaya/Sanga in some cases. So point i am making here is dont be harsh on a player of a caliber of Kohli, Lara, SRT, Inzi or Sanga. They won few and lost many but man we always loved watching them fight, fight fight till end. 

 

Some give up in an hopeless causes because thats their temperament but when they know target is realistically achievable their deterministic approach was seen by all of us. I personally enjoyed it. I have seen RD, struggling to score 20 runs because he had no support from the other end.

[Forever Indian]

2 minutes ago, Jamadagni said:

What do you want to prove? Kohli's runs are imactless? Scoring 120 in the last test was imactless? 149 in the first test in England imactless? 150 in the second test vs SA early this year imactless? All those hundreds were scored in the 1st/2nd innings which are more likely to shape up the outcome of the matches rather than 3rd/4th innings runs.  

I don't have anything to prove, the stats clearly show that Kohli is not even the best match winner away in current team. So this pretext that he wins matches with his bat so can get away with crap selection/captaincy is not ON.

[Trichromatic]

3 minutes ago, CSK Fan said:

Lol i habe seen the same type of analysis made by pak fans to put down sachin. When a champion player scores against big teams mote frequently a lot might still cause defeat. You cannot compare with other players like inzamam or rahne who scores only against weaker teams so of course their impact will show more 

Which type of analysis? Here he is being compared to his teammates and not players from other teams.

[prudent_kreeda]

1 hour ago, Forever Indian said:

My point is whenever Kohli's test captaincy is discussed his fans/supporters point that he wins matches with his batting and leading by example. But the stats show that his big runs away have not been more match winning than others whose place are under debate and his captaincy is actually losing us more.

      That because most of others do not make enough runs . So even 100 by Virat will not be enough to win matches .  

[ShoonyaSifar]

3 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

I don't have anything to prove, the stats clearly show that Kohli is not even the best match winner away in current team. So this pretext that he wins matches with his bat so can get away with crap selection/captaincy is not ON.

Add the number of runs scored as well. It will become clear that without Kohli’s ‘padded up’ runs in losses and draws, others will find it difficult to even retain their test spots regularly in the Away tests.

 

 

[R!TTER]

13 minutes ago, dial_100 said:

It depends on how you want to use information. Usually, game statistic is not plane business numbers and Profit and loss type analysis. I guy part of a great team could score with a healthy average and show lot of wins. On the other hand, a guy with a very weak team could show extremely strong average but have no wins to show. 

 

My cricketing sense says, that as much I enjoy winning team, I also enjoy watching the fight shown by a guy in a losing cause. This is cricket and people have lot of emotions with win/lose type of statistics. I remember watching so many games where I could tell from the body language of SRT that hey could easily win even if the target looked impossible but 10 other idiots just wouldnt stop showing their antiques while capable batsman waited on the other end. 

 

I am sure similar thing could have happened with Inzi or Lara or Jaya/Sanga in some cases. So point i am making here is dont be harsh on a player of a caliber of Kohli, Lara, SRT, Inzi or Sanga. They won few and lost many but man we always loved watching them fight, fight fight till end. 

 

Some give up in an hopeless causes because thats their temperament but when they know target is realistically achievable their deterministic approach was seen by all of us. I personally enjoyed it. I have seen RD, struggling to score 20 runs because he had no support from the other end.

Strangely I don't see that from Kohli, the calm that Dravid, SRT, Laxman or even Ganguly brought is missing from his game.

 

1st test vs England, relatively small chase, 4th innings a set Kohli (with Pandya) decides to walk down the track & flick the first (second?) ball of a new spell from Stokes. He gets out & India capitulate, Southampton last innings & a set Kohli lunges forward against Ali getting caught at bat pad. Both he & Rahane were set at that time, he also chased a very wide one in the first innings as he got caught off Curran. This test at Perth, second last over before lunch he drives a widish ball off Pat, gets out to him in the same manner 3 times out of 3 tests IIRC.

 

The thing that makes him great, giant size ego, also makes him fallible. He reminds me of the great Sehwag, except that guy was a match winner like no other - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXh6izZbvc

 

It's like he's always fighting this battle within himself, he wants to dominate all the time & that gets the better of him the vast majority of times.

Edited December 18, 2018 by R!TTER

[Forever Indian]

3 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Add the number of runs scored as well. It will become clear that without Kohli’s ‘padded up’ runs in losses and draws, others will find it difficult to even retain their test spots regularly in the Away tests.

 

 

How will the others lose their spot when they win you more matches. Only the stupidity of Kohli's captaincy will do that when he replaced likes of Pujara and Rahane for his buddies like Rohit. 

[Forever Indian]

6 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

      That because most of others do not make enough runs . So even 100 by Virat will not be enough to win matches .  

How about him averaging much less in India's wins then? Reason can be found for everything, bottomline is his batting is not match winning enough to let his stupidity in captaincy/selections to go without scrutiny saying he wins matches with the bat.

[Trichromatic]

It shows while Kohli is best on regular days when other are failing, he doesn't raise game to levels of others on good days.

 

 

[sensible-indian]

Can we get Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman's numbers too?

 

To see the trends.

[rtmohanlal]

this stats is an absolute meaning less one.This Perth test itself is an example.  Kohli scored 123 out of the 283 put  by India.What more do he need to do??There were 2 dumb asses that made it 8/2  .He took off  from that situation absorbing all the pressure and  scored a

brilliant 123.So let's blame Kohli for the  performance of other clueless hacks. 

[R!TTER]

You're not counting Pak?

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Host country Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Match result won match

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 600

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 9 of 9

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
R Dravid	2001-2011	15	27	3	1577	270	65.70	4	7	0
SR Tendulkar	1993-2010	13	22	2	1219	194*	60.95	5	3	1
V Sehwag	2002-2010	11	18	1	965	309	56.76	3	1	3
CA Pujara	2010-2018	10	17	1	901	153	56.31	4	3	1
VVS Laxman	2002-2011	14	23	2	1111	148	52.90	2	8	1
SC Ganguly	2001-2008	9	16	4	617	128	51.41	1	5	2
AM Rahane	2014-2018	11	19	2	864	132	50.82	3	4	0
SM Gavaskar	1971-1986	9	17	2	756	118	50.40	3	3	2
V Kohli	2011-2018	12	21	1	871	200	43.55	3	3	1

[Forever Indian]

16 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

this stats is an absolute meaning less one.This Perth test itself is an example.  Kohli scored 123 out of the 283 put  by India.What more do he need to do??There were 2 dumb asses that made it 8/2  .He took off  from that situation absorbing all the pressure and  scored a

brilliant 123.So let's blame Kohli for the  performance of other clueless hacks. 

He almost offset his extra runs by his team selections to lose the match.

 

Also, Pujara singlehandedly won us the last match, did same to win us a series in SL after being 1-1. Rahane scored a century in Lords on that minefield on Day 1. These performances couldn't be matched by opposition because they  outplayed the opposition batsmen even in those conditions. 

[Trichromatic]

25 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

this stats is an absolute meaning less one.This Perth test itself is an example.  Kohli scored 123 out of the 283 put  by India.What more do he need to do??There were 2 dumb asses that made it 8/2  .He took off  from that situation absorbing all the pressure and  scored a

 brilliant 123.So let's blame Kohli for the  performance of other clueless hacks. 

It means that Perth test isn't a problem. But when things were favorable e.g. first test where India batted first, other batsmen contributed (rahane, Pujara) he went missing.

 

So, while he is fighter during rough weather, he doesn't sail fast enough during fair weather to increase chances of winning like other two.

[rtmohanlal]

28 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

He almost offset his extra runs by his team selections to lose the match.

 

Also, Pujara singlehandedly won us the last match, did same to win us a series in SL after being 1-1. Rahane scored a century in Lords on that minefield on Day 1. These performances couldn't be matched by opposition because they  outplayed the opposition batsmen even in those conditions. 

 

23 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

It means that Perth test isn't a problem. But when things were favorable e.g. first test where India batted first, other batsmen contributed (rahane, Pujara) he went missing.

 

So, while he is fighter during rough weather, he doesn't sail fast enough during fair weather to increase chances of winning like other two.

I think it has more to do with other variables like others also  performing apart from batting first . For instance   in the first test Pujara scored, but still the team score was a paltry 250. But there was Ashwin who played the major part in reducing the opposition to even smaller score.So just imagine Umesh in place of Ashwin there . Here already  Kohli was chasing  325  on a much tougher pitch. Doing the catching job is more tough  when compared to setting targets. Isn't it?

That's why I do not believe much  in this 'contribution  in     won  matches' criteria.I think the better  criterias would be '% of team score ' , catch up or setting inns ,  'oppostion team total' , match situation( for instance when Kohli arrived the team score was a pathetic 8/2 etc etc. Yes... it is a bit confusing to base an inns on all these factors, but other wise , there is not much sense in it either,

Edited December 18, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[ShoonyaSifar]

20 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

It means that Perth test isn't a problem. But when things were favorable e.g. first test where India batted first, other batsmen contributed (rahane, Pujara) he went missing.

 

So, while he is fighter during rough weather, he doesn't sail fast enough during fair weather to increase chances of winning like other two.

Lol if that is your conclusion, you need to understand better about data correlation.

[Trichromatic]

2 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

 Lol if that is your conclusion, you need to understand better about data correlation.

What's better conclusion?

[dial_100]

7 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Strangely I don't see that from Kohli, the calm that Dravid, SRT, Laxman or even Ganguly brought is missing from his game.

 

1st test vs England, relatively small chase, 4th innings a set Kohli (with Pandya) decides to walk down the track & flick the first (second?) ball of a new spell from Stokes. He gets out & India capitulate, Southampton last innings & a set Kohli lunges forward against Ali getting caught at bat pad. Both he & Rahane were set at that time, he also chased a very wide one in the first innings as he got caught off Curran. This test at Perth, second last over before lunch he drives a widish ball off Pat, gets out to him in the same manner 3 times out of 3 tests IIRC.

 

The thing that makes him great, giant size ego, also makes him fallible. He reminds me of the great Sehwag, except that guy was a match winner like no other - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXh6izZbvc

 

It's like he's always fighting this battle within himself, he wants to dominate all the time & that gets the better of him the vast majority of times.

Its a team game. Kohli is not SRT or RD.

[CSK Fan]

9 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Which type of analysis? Here he is being compared to his teammates and not players from other teams.

A batsman who is more consistent and against different teams and series will have his overall average more in line with the winning/losing average and team winning/losing average. This is but common sense. On the other hand batsmen who are inconsistent can have big up and downs

 

A very simple example I would take was ramiz going on about Inzi and ganguly being a bigger match winner than sachin in odis as a bigger % of their 100s were in win. However even a cursory second glance would tell you the reason, the former never scored against bigger teams so of course if you score only against weaker or more against weaker then your win % will be higher. If you removed sachins stats against stronger teams his win % was similar or better than the other two. So sachin was scoring equal against weak and strong teams while the other two hardly scored 100s against strong teams 

 

So basically a batsman who is more consistent, scores equally against all teams and in all series is likely to have less win % than a batsman who scores more against weaker team and less against stronger teams. So basically the stats in op are rewarding batsmen for being inconsistent and scoring more against weaker teams compared to stronger

Edited December 19, 2018 by CSK Fan