#StopHindiImposition Protests [ Only for Tammys ] !!!

[Vilander]

30 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

I don't know what their political calculations are. I guess the states they are targeting to grow right now: WB, OD, TG they don't view it as harmful.  

they just gave immense fodder to all chewts from left in all southern states.

[Vilander]

39 minutes ago, Moochad said:

 

Good to know that something which is difficult should be quit before even attempting. Marathis love it enough to understand that there isn't some inherent deficiency in it and that in certain fields like Med it should be preferred within Maharashtra. 

 

Fair point, there are some underfunded diploma mills in some places which teach engineering. I'm sure there can't be properly funded and accreditation higher education in Indian languages. Good to know. 

Not as many as you Zoolander, please refrain from doing so in the future. 

 

lol you can kiss my ass, i am arrogantly entitled to my opinion per law you see.

 

40 minutes ago, Moochad said:

Good to know that something which is difficult should be quit before even attempting. Marathis love it enough to understand that there isn't some inherent deficiency in it and that in certain fields like Med it should be preferred within Maharashtra. 

 

Fair point, there are some underfunded diploma mills in some places which teach engineering. I'm sure there can't be properly funded and accreditation higher education in Indian languages. Good to know. 

Just run a cursory check on Engineering text books in Hindi,Telugu,Tamil etc. you will see what i mean. Its just not practical to give up English because some chaddis feel macho if Hindi is  spoken by all ( it will be organically but we have to be patient). there are battles that right should choose this is not one of them definitely not now. 

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Do our regional languages have the required technical jargon to enable higher education in MTs? Doesn't English have a dominant advantage at least in our setting? 

They probably dont and probably wont in future as well - no primary research publications visible in regional language. the other question is does Hindi have it ?

[maniac]

12 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

I know from first hand multiple visits to Maharashtra that the moment Marathis suss out that I am not a Marathi or a Gujju, they switch to Hindi on their own.

so? what does that even prove lol. The person speaking to you in Hindi is obviously not trying to make small talk with you. the person is either trying to make a sale or trying to help you out. In either cases even if you can't speak Hindi, the person will try to switch to English or even if that doesn't work out will resort to hand gestures and sign language. That doesn't prove anything. In fact if it were the other way round and you had business interests in another state, you would try learning the local language too, because 9 out of 10 times in business, it won't work if you don't speak the native tongue.

 

How does that even prove, the benefit of learning Hindi?

 

If you are saying that language is just a tool for communication and that is why Hindi needs to be pushed on others, that is totally wrong and in fact not necessary. Language is a lot more than that. it is culture,history and way of life. You can't enforce it on to others. period

 

You see100s of thousands  of North Indian pilgrims visiting Tirupati and Tamil Nadu temples and South Indian pilgrims visiting Varanasi, Kedarnath,Vaishno Devi etc. They get by just fine without having to communicate in Hindi. In fact for business and tourism purposes things are made easy for them to communicate in their mother tongue.

 

I was surprised to see signs in Mandarin in Grand Canyon,Nevada. Apparently Chinese tourists come there a lot for some reason.

 

As I said learning a language for trade makes sense but it cannot be enforced on people.It is a choice

 

 

[maniac]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Do our regional languages have the required technical jargon to enable higher education in MTs? Doesn't English have a dominant advantage at least in our setting? 

As I said above almost all accepted international manuals for Medicine,Engineering,Management, Economics,Science are written in English. 

 

Also most English/convent educated folk in India can neither speak English fluently because it is obviously not our language, can't speak Hindi properly because face it,most non-Hindi folk have a thick accent and speak colloquial filmi Hindi and all this fks them up in speaking their mother tounge as well.

 

There is a reason why India is far behind in content creation because we are culturally fked up. We do not have a single original thought in our head. what is the last path breaking movie,book,poem etc created by an Indian?

[Tibarn]

 

 

36 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Do our regional languages have the required technical jargon to enable higher education in MTs? Doesn't English have a dominant advantage at least in our setting? 

English in comparison to Indian languages definitely has an advantage in "technical jargon", but that varies between fields. In IT there is a big difference I think, as all the main programming languages are in the Roman alphabet. I know that the difference is very marginal in the gamut of Biological (the extent of use of English is to search for other research published in English).  In the later case, there are research papers produced in every major langauge, German, Japanese, French, etc, so the benefit isn't intrinsic to English.  

 

Inventing the jargon in some cases may be too time consuming and pointless, such as in IT. I am not sure how efficient it would be to create a say Python or Java in say Gujarati script here. In those cases it makes sense to allow students to learn it as is. One could argue that this entire course could be in English, so long as English isn't a prerequisite for admission into the course.  

 

Here are some perspectives on coding in different languages: 

https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/1483/do-people-in-non-english-speaking-countries-code-in-english

https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/46386/what-is-programming-like-in-the-japanese-language

 

However for Biology it would be very straightforward to translate and teach in Indian languages.Using this table from a popular textbook

There is very little there that can't be easily translated to Gujarati. On occasion a new word might need to be coined, but that is rare. 

A word like DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid, isn't really English per-se. It is just a term which would could have the same meaning regardless of language. 

 

Same here: The disease name Pemphigus vulgaris is Latin not English. One learning English doesn't really convey the meaning of the disease name. Whatever language one learns in, they would have to understand the Latin to derive the meaning of the name. The word desmosome is a technical word, but someone trained in English doesn't automatically derive its meaning just from the word itself.

 

 

 

 

[Tibarn]

On 9/18/2019 at 9:20 AM, Moochad said:

I shared this before

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4117137/

Quote

The medium of instruction

Before contemplating paradigm shift, one is driven by a need to review the medium of instruction which forms the basic and vital backbone of any curriculum. The medium of instruction for most of the professional courses in India is English. Unlike a few other disciplines like Law and Civil Services, which enjoy substitutes for the medium of instruction, Medicine is taught in English alone. An Indian demographic scan reflects the basic medium of instruction until high school being dominated by regional or vernacular languages in majority of Indian States. A few southern and north eastern states make an exception, with a reasonable exposure to English language. The foundations of logic reasoning and memory in basic subjects are founded in the regional languages, with minimal exposure to English. At entrance exam and at college level, a sudden and vast expanse of the curriculum in a near-to-alien language leaves the students crippled and challenged, widening the rift between the two. The students keep fiddling between understanding the terms, which they otherwise understand very well; and are unable to establish an impressive academic record. This dual work load not only proves fatal but also stalls innovation and creativity thus impairing the overall academic performance. Keeping these facts in mind, it is time when the curriculum along with existing periodic revisions, is urgently translated into immediate regional needs. This could bring a revolution in India, generating talented physicians from the neglected rural backgrounds with little reluctance to serve in their villages.

Encouragement for the backward and other backward classes already exists in India but has not adequately impacted the socio economic academic demography of India. But, can the current system deliver in the long run until the language barriers are truly overcome? The language barriers have to be addressed and resolved promptly in the field of Medical Education and should be carried forthwith without further ado. It is well known that Russia, China, Japan, Mexico and other countries, with their education system in native languages other than English, have produced excellent human resources trained in medicine as well as biomedical research to the extent that many Indian learn their languages to undergo medical training in these countries. Is it not better to learn Tamil, Telgu or Malyalam in order to get trained in proposedregional language centric medical schools than learning foreign languages to get into those medical schools.

Yes that is a big issue. We get the refrain that English gives us an advantage in certain fields but they are never actually demonstrable. In others fields it is, but not in all.

 

The practical or at least compromise solution would be: to encourage English medium in higher education in fields like IT where we actually see tangible benefits from it (so long as MT-medium students aren't disadvantaged from admission into those same programs which is what actually happens right now. ); but in fields like Medicine where there isn't actually a English-language advantage, rather MTs may have an advantage here, encourage students to go into those. In both cases one can have the option of being a rebel and doing the opposite of what is encouraged. 

 

A one-size fits all approach of all higher ed being in English, even when there isn't a true advantage across all fields, is a bad idea IMO. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, you may not know this but just last year this was made

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5991030/

Quote

My Tryst of Writing and Publishing a Comprehensive Medical Textbook in Vernacular Hindi and New Hindi Medical Terminology

Abstract

In India, although the native language is not English but the medical education is imparted in English. The authors have written a textbook of surgery in Hindi with the intention of promoting the understanding of surgery and encouraging reflective and deep learning for students whose native language is Hindi. In this article, the authors share experiences of writing such a book, the reasons for the same and also discuss the creation of new medical nomenclature in Hindi.

 

Quote

Introduction

In many non-English speaking countries, the language used in medical education is native. The list of such countries includes Germany, France, Japan, Russia, China, Brazil (Portugese), Indonesia, and many more. India is a multi-lingual country and the issue of a single national language in post independent India has been a vexed one. English is taught and spoken in India for over two centuries. For most people in some of the northern and central states of India, Hindi is the mother tongue. Those educated with graduate degrees mostly have less or more skills in English language. Modern medical science—MBBS, engineering, and other technologies are taught in English language throughout the 29 Indian states. Similarly, in the entire Indian sub-continent consisting of India, Nepal, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka despite different native languages medium of medical teaching has remained English.

Well-educated and usually affluent population speaks English, and this is considered a status symbol. People want to study in “English-medium” schools and “Hindi-medium” schools are considered “backward” by some.

Class room and bedside teaching of modern medicine has the extra benefit of annotations and body language used by teachers, mentors, and patients thus improving the overall comprehension of the learner. The need for a comprehensive textbook of surgery in Hindi, to facilitate learning in the vernacular, was felt for many years. The authors devoted more than 10 years to create a comprehensive textbook in Hindi in Devanagree script, Adhunik Shalya Chikitsa Vigyan (Jaypee Brothers, 2015) [1]. Driven by a feeling of nationalism and desire to fill the gap of creating technology and science textbook in Hindi, the authors have created a self-reading text for better understanding with the additional agenda of using the opportunity to popularize some of the existing and create some new Hindi terminology. The textbook was written in Hindi with the intention of promoting the understanding of subject and encouraging reflective and deep learning for students whose native language is Hindi. In this article, the authors share experiences of writing such a book, the reasons for the same and also discuss the creation of new medical nomenclature in Hindi

 

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Tibarn

[Tibarn]

There were also steps taken by the NDA this year to bridge the gap of textbooks in Indian languages, we will see how it progresses 

https://www.collegedekho.com/news/mhrd-translated-university-textbooks-in-22-languages-16609/

Quote

The Ministry of Human Resource Development (MHRD) of the union government in a reply to a written question raised in the parliament, said that it is translating university textbooks in 22 languages and 11 languages have been done.

 

The Ministry of Human Resouce Development (MHRD) on 1st July, 2019 reported to the parliament that it is working towards translating university level text-books in all 22 official languages of India. In response to a written question in Lok Sabha, the information of textbook translation is shared by Ramesh Pokhrial Nishank, a minister of Union HRD ministry.

Nishank informed that under the Government of India’s various schemes, the university level textbooks are being translated and published in 22 languages prescribed in the 8th schedule of Constitution of India.

 

The Commission for Scientific and Technical Terminology or CSTT is the body that is providing grants to publish the university level study materials in different languages, informed Nishank while listing the benefits of higher education in the regional languages in India. He informed that the books are so far published in 11 Indian languages which are Bengali, Kannada, Malayalam, Gujarati, Oriya, Punjabi, Tamil, Hindi, Marathi and Telugu.

 

The Central Institute of Languages (CIL), Mysore is implementing the project through the National Translation Mission (NTM) under which, the textbooks on various subjects prescribed by various universities are being translated in the regional languages. Added by Mr. Nishank.

 

Hopefully it goes well 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Tibarn

[Gollum]

2 hours ago, Vilander said:

They probably dont and probably wont in future as well - no primary research publications visible in regional language. the other question is does Hindi have it ?

I don't think Hindi has it, not remotely close to acceptable. That is why I remain skeptical, firmly on the pro-English camp. Even if attempts are made to incorporate them in some of our regional languages will the effort be worth it? Benefit-cost ratio will be very less IMO, akin to chasing shadows. 

1 hour ago, maniac said:

As I said above almost all accepted international manuals for Medicine,Engineering,Management, Economics,Science are written in English. 

Also most English/convent educated folk in India can neither speak English fluently because it is obviously not our language, can't speak Hindi properly because face it,most non-Hindi folk have a thick accent and speak colloquial filmi Hindi and all this fks them up in speaking their mother tounge as well.

No need to speak English fluently, accent doesn't matter, we need to know it effectively. Aren't auditioning for Broadway, we need to know enough English so that we can use it to imbibe knowledge, spread knowledge, communicate ideas etc. I am sure our people can be trained for that, need a different teaching module that aims to do just that. ICSE/CBSE background kids have good command over the language, no way inferior to some of my US/UK born and bred relatives.

 

Problem is govt schools and indeed most private schools have low standards, and penetration of quality education is less....govt needs to increase % GDP allocation for primary/secondary education...higher education can wait for the moment. That is the trick we missed in 1947, one needs to adopt bottom-up approach in education....Universities (tertiary) come last in the pecking order, first primary, then secondary.....finally tertiary. Look at our literacy rates, how the hell will illiterates take advantage of the secondary or tertiary educational institutes? This is a recurring theme in independent India, we mix up the order. Even in economy we should have proceeded from primary (agriculture)->secondary (industrial)->tertiary (services). But we skipped secondary and directly went to become services dominant economy, now we are going back and trying to develop secondary sector.

 

I don't care about Bengali/Sanskrit/Hindi....English is the primary option for education in India IMO.  

Quote

There is a reason why India is far behind in content creation because we are culturally fked up. We do not have a single original thought in our head. what is the last path breaking movie,book,poem etc created by an Indian?

There may be many reasons for that...other than the topic at hand. More to do with environment, would you agree that Indians settled in developed countries have more creativity? Our system discourages risk taking and there is no culture of excellence, lack of ambition as well. But I do believe things are on the upturn, let us wait and observe. 

But yeah we are culturally *ed up, have been so for centuries. When I look at the mathematical/scientific achievements of the Gupta Empire or the cultural peaks of Cholans/Vijayanagara, numerous other examples...yeah we have massively declined and probably might never regain such exalted position on the global platform.  

Edited September 19, 2019 by Gollum

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

As I said above almost all accepted international manuals for Medicine,Engineering,Management, Economics,Science are written in English. 

 

Also most English/convent educated folk in India can neither speak English fluently because it is obviously not our language, can't speak Hindi properly because face it,most non-Hindi folk have a thick accent and speak colloquial filmi Hindi and all this fks them up in speaking their mother tounge as well.

 

There is a reason why India is far behind in content creation because we are culturally fked up. We do not have a single original thought in our head. what is the last path breaking movie,book,poem etc created by an Indian?

One of the contributing factors is lack of control on plagiarism. In india there are limited control in school and colleges around copiying existing work from Internet. So as adults they do the same and infringe copyrights..call it inspiration.

[Vilander]

8 minutes ago, Gollum said:

There may be many reasons for that...other than the topic at hand. More to do with environment, would you agree that Indians settled in developed countries have more creativity?

Western education system for all its flaws is creativity inducing right from pre kinder..its amazing the difference in outlook. Create and consume almost a proclivity to be creative vs compliance..Indians are some of the most compliant people..we can read digest and absolutely follow norms and acheive defined success...take most crap while acheiving it be inventive while overcoming odds to acheive it. Not talking about winging it but distruptive innovation.

[Gollum]

Great insights @Tibarn and thanks for the share @Moochad, you guys have certainly opened my eyes and given food for thought, some reading to do as well. Being from medical/biology background you have made a compelling case for dissemination of information in vernacular medium in that field. Maybe GOI can start a pilot project and see how it goes. I am from Engineering background and less optimistic, but as Tibarn said we can pick and choose, be more flexible. Similarly need to analyze other subjects....will be a long drawn out process, very challenging but if it works out well it will be a game changer. Should have started this process a long time back, anyway how ALL previous govts have handled education has been nothing short of criminal. 

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, maniac said:

so? what does that even prove lol. The person speaking to you in Hindi is obviously not trying to make small talk with you. the person is either trying to make a sale or trying to help you out. In either cases even if you can't speak Hindi, the person will try to switch to English or even if that doesn't work out will resort to hand gestures and sign language. That doesn't prove anything. In fact if it were the other way round and you had business interests in another state, you would try learning the local language too, because 9 out of 10 times in business, it won't work if you don't speak the native tongue.

It proves that these people do not mind speaking Hindi ( which you claimed hey do) and that Hindi competency is far more prevalent than you are giving credit for. Listen I know what people are like when they do not want to speak a language- plenty of Quebecois won’t speak English period, even when they wanna make a sale. 

2 hours ago, maniac said:

How does that even prove, the benefit of learning Hindi?

This proves that Hindi is by far the most common second language in India and learning it improves ones chances of intercommmunication massively .

2 hours ago, maniac said:

 

If you are saying that language is just a tool for communication and that is why Hindi needs to be pushed on others, that is totally wrong and in fact not necessary. Language is a lot more than that. it is culture,history and way of life. You can't enforce it on to others. period

False. English is not a culture way of life or such thing for Indians. It’s just a language to bridge the gap. Same argument applies to Hindi for non Hindi natives.

 

2 hours ago, maniac said:

As I said learning a language for trade makes sense but it cannot be enforced on people.It is a choice

 

 

Of course it can be enforced and it should be enforced as any beneficial subject in school is enforced 

[Muloghonto]

10 hours ago, Stan AF said:

Thanks Gollum for typing your own experience. From your post I'm gathering that English was your first, indhi - 2nd and your mother tongue bengali the third. See this is a classic imposition right here!!. Why wasn't your mother tongue bengali, the first or 2nd language in this case. You have already relegated it to your third preferred choice of communication and the results speak for themselves.  By your own admission you aren't using your language and already losing the grip of conversation and feeling guilty about it. Why wasn't bengali given the first preference here?. I can understand English being the mode of education but at-least the 2nd place should have been given to bengali.

 

If this continues, 2-3 generations from you they will completely don't know your mother tongue bengali and it will be wiped out and it will be replaced by the usual suspects. This is what TN aims to completely keep out. Two Language Policy (Tamil & English) is more than enough. If we want we'd learn computer languages as there's a better economic future as opposed to Indhi.

I too did ICSE. In ICSE what language you pick as second language is up to you. I picked Hindi too. In ICSE there is no qualitative difference in learning first or second language. Both have two papers each ( grammar and literature) and both are quite hard. In English I had to do original Shakespeare, in Hindi Harivansh Rai Bachchan. Third language is significantly lower in standard , it’s ESL quality. A lot of us choose Hindi as second language over our mother tongues because we are already fluent in our mother tongue to nearly second language level, but want to develop competency in Hindi to a similar level. 

 

Your concerns are BS because nobody loses competency in their mother tongue as long as they don’t immigrate to a foreign country, marry a foreigner and hardly ever speak to their parents and family. Gollum is losing competency in Bengali because Bengali is not his mother tongue. As such, your concerns are summarily dismissed as false equivalencies. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Pig **** usual fart from mulaghanta..

 

Counter anecdote i pulled fresh from my arse; nice and warm smell it before i flush it down.

Some of the most accomplished sales people i have met are qubercois proficient in english and selling across NA.

 

Qewt brings quality of a discussion down single handedly time and time again. 

 

You mayve met a few qubecious but plenty there who won’t speak English, period. Says the insecure southie who can’t answer a simple question about Hindi neighbor languages. 

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

You mayve met a few qubecious but plenty there who won’t speak English, period. Says the insecure southie who can’t answer a simple question about Hindi neighbor languages. 

Anecdote. 

[Muloghonto]

20 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Anecdote. 

I was responding to anecdote with anecdote. But your southie double standards are evident because you will do anything to dodge the question about Hindi neighbor languages. Maybe coz we are not as insecure about Hindi than your folks because we have much greater exposure. 

[Vilander]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I was responding to anecdote with anecdote. But your southie double standards are evident because you will do anything to dodge the question about Hindi neighbor languages. Maybe coz we are not as insecure about Hindi than your folks because we have much greater exposure. 

Lol your rant on Quebecois was the first anecdote to which I responded with mine freshly pulled out for your consumption...build castles around straw men.

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Lol your rant on Quebecois was the first anecdote to which I responded with mine freshly pulled out for your consumption...build castles around straw men.

Nope. I was responding to the anecdote that marathis or odiyas don’t like to speak Hindi. But good job dodging the real question. 

[Vilander]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Nope. I was responding to the anecdote that marathis or odiyas don’t like to speak Hindi. But good job dodging the real question. 

OK I don't care.