Would Kapil Dev make it into the current Indian bowling line up as a strike bowler?

[jf1gp_1]

Kapil, Bumrah and Zaheer would have been a great attack. 

[Rightarmfast]

19 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Chris cairns is a lower tier all roudner. Not even remotely close to Kapil who opened the bowling for us even after Srinath's entry.  He is a better new ball bowler than these guys. They don't remotely give me any vibe. As a unit they are good when in form. Injury to a couple of them they will be exposed against good batting sides. At this point many teams lack good batting stars with test batting skills. Only a handful like Williamson, Root, Smith, Warner.  Same SA team got bowled out for 123 and 73 runs in SL. They got beaten by SL in SA.  So i am going to reserve my judgement before hypign them up. We are still one of the worst bowling against tailenders amongst all countries. A team loaded with supposedly ATG bowling attack should not struggle this much against tailenders. 

"Chris cairns is a lower tier all roudner. Not even remotely close to Kapil who opened the bowling for us even after Srinath's entry"

The only reason Kapil was opening the bowling was because he was bullying everybody for his place in the team. This is well known. A good new ball bowler? I think 90% of the people making comment here never saw Kapil bowl, including you. I said that before, I have seen Kapil bowling. No batsmen was wary of facing Kapil.  More often than not, Kapil used to look helpless. He used to have no clue what to do.  The reason why Kapil has top order batsmen to his name is because simply, India did not have any other bowler who could take wickets at all. 

 

"At this point many teams lack good batting stars with test batting skills. Only a handful like Williamson, Root, Smith, Warner.  Same SA team got bowled out for 123 and 73 runs in SL. They got beaten by SL in SA.  So i am going to reserve my judgement before hypign them up."

 

Why do you sound more like the padosi site posters with these comments? Really, you think their bowling is average because of batsmen of lesser stature? Geez! You just havent watched cricket enough buddy. You can only bowl at the batsmen you get. And any decent batsman, in his own country is doubly dangerous. And these bowlers have troubled each batsmen in their own country. Go figure!

 

"A team loaded with supposedly ATG bowling attack should not struggle this much against tailenders." 

Fair enough. But tbh, the only bowling attack who was genuinely good at cleaning up lower order was the Pakistani unit. But then, we never know if it was the bottle caps doing the trick or what. So... Its not that this present Indian team has the worst stats in cleaning up the tail, is it? Just sayin!

 

 

 

 

[putrevus]

I have heard it all, wow we are now comparing our trio who have been awful except for last few months to Ambroses and Mcgraths.Bumrah has fricking 50 test wickets and we are making him into ATG bowler.He has a chance to become an ATG great bowler but let us hold our horses till he plays for few years.

 

Kapil might have blocked Srinath for couple of seasons that too playing at home.Indians rarely played at home from 1990 to 94.If Srinath was so great he would have taken Kapil's dev place after playing so many overseas tests.Ishant Sharma who is still very iffy is not better than Kapil dev nor is Shami.

[Vijy]

Kapil, especially if he was exposed to a more pace-friendly culture as our current day pacers are, would walk into this team purely as a bowler. If he grew up today, I reckon that he would have done better than he did in 70s and 80s. and what's more, his batting would have really clicked in this era. can see him avg around 25-26 with the ball and around 35-37 with the bat in tests. to my mind, he was a much better bat than jaddu (who has improved a great deal) and ashwin and these guys have avgs of approximately 35 and 30.

[express bowling]

On 11/4/2019 at 11:55 PM, putrevus said:

I have heard it all, wow we are now comparing our trio who have been awful except for last few months to Ambroses and Mcgraths.

 

Our trio of Bumrah, Shami and Ishant came together in January 2018, and have never been awful as a group. In fact, this group together have varied between very good and good.

 

 

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Bumrah has fricking 50 test wickets and we are making him into ATG bowler.He has a chance to become an ATG great bowler but let us hold our horses till he plays for few years.

 

Bumrah has 62 wickets from just 12 tests at an average of just 19.  This is a great start.

 

Yes ... he is far far away from being an ATG ... but it does not take much to be one of India's best pacers ever. 

 

 

 

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s.Ishant Sharma who is still very iffy is not better than Kapil dev nor is Shami.

 

Ishant is not even close to Kapil.

 

Shami can be more devastating and effective 

than Kapil in certain conditions and always more hostile.

[Rightarmfast]

For those who have seen Kapil bowl on his best days know, that Ishant bowls just as good as Kapil. Kapil never had the fear factor going in for him when he bowled. 

Only people who saw Kapil bowl will know. Stats and highlights are misleading. 

 

5 and a half out of 7 days, Kapil used to be a very very mediocre bowler! 

[rtmohanlal]

15 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

For those who have seen Kapil bowl on his best days know, that Ishant bowls just as good as Kapil. Kapil never had the fear factor going in for him when he bowled. 

Only people who saw Kapil bowl will know. Stats and highlights are misleading. 

 

5 and a half out of 7 days, Kapil used to be a very very mediocre bowler! 

I have seen  Kapil bowl and can't agree with  what you said. A bowler who averaged a mere 27.7 after playing  62 tests in mere 5 y & 5 m with virtually

minnow level support   is only just as good as Ishant!!!!!!!! Are you kidding???  Even after playing along with several  <30 averaging bowlers Ishant still averages around  34. 

[Rightarmfast]

3 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

I have seen  Kapil bowl and can't agree with  what you said. A bowler who averaged a mere 27.7 after playing  62 tests in mere 5 y & 5 m with virtually

minnow level support   is only just as good as Ishant!!!!!!!! Are you kidding???  Even after playing along with several  <30 averaging bowlers Ishant still averages around  34. 

Agree, I over exaggerated. But I do not agree with people making Kapil somekind of a demigod which he wasnt. He could have a 27/28 average for majority of his career, but we cant even disregard the fact that during his era, the strokemaking, the rules for bowlers were different. 

 

However, my point is, he wasnt a fiery fast bowler. Teams respected him, but nobody was really scared of facing Kapil. More often than not, Kapil had his chin down with despair. 

At the end of it, we can agree to disagree. I do not rate Kapil better than Srinath or the present lot. I genuinely do not, and I have seen all of these bowlers play!

 

[rtmohanlal]

3 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Agree, I over exaggerated. But I do not agree with people making Kapil somekind of a demigod which he wasnt. He could have a 27/28 average for majority of his career, but we cant even disregard the fact that during his era, the strokemaking, the rules for bowlers were different. 

 

However, my point is, he wasnt a fiery fast bowler. Teams respected him, but nobody was really scared of facing Kapil. More often than not, Kapil had his chin down with despair. 

At the end of it, we can agree to disagree. I do not rate Kapil better than Srinath or the present lot. I genuinely do not, and I have seen all of these bowlers play!

 

every era has been different to one another and posed challenges of its's own.So there is no need of comparing Kapil based on eras.

It is all about being effective. Fastness is an over rated matter. Hadlee,Mcgrath,Pollock,Walsh etc etc were  never as fast as say as Lee or Jeoff Thomson, but they were far superior bowlers when compared to latters.And if you are mentioning to 'teams being  scared of an effective bowler', Kapil  was not in the league of a genuine ATG  bowler like Mcgrath and no body is claiming in those lines.

 

Srinath even with the likes of Kumble in the team(deadly  at least at home) took only 236 wkts at around 30.5 avg: , a far inferior record to that of Kapil when every fact is taken into account. So  perhaps it is you only

[Rightarmfast]

8 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

every era has been different to one another and posed challenges of its's own.So there is no need of comparing Kapil based on eras.

It is all about being effective. Fastness is an over rated matter. Hadlee,Mcgrath,Pollock,Walsh etc etc were  never as fast as say as Lee or Jeoff Thomson, but they were far superior bowlers when compared to latters.And if you are mentioning to 'teams being  scared of an effective bowler', Kapil  was not in the league of a genuine ATG  bowler like Mcgrath and no body is claiming in those lines.

 

Srinath even with the likes of Kumble in the team(deadly  at least at home) took only 236 wkts at around 30.5 avg: , a far inferior record to that of Kapil when every fact is taken into account. So  perhaps it is you only

Like I said, lets agree to disagree. But coming to your points, well I never mentioned speed. I have not even spoken about no of wickets, but I did mention the nature those wickets were taken. Srinath did give you the feel that he could take a wicket at any given time, especially in the first part of matches. He did hurry and worry batsmen. I am not very sure if Kapil had as much effect on batsmen. The no of wickets notwithstanding. To each his own. 

[Nikhil_cric]

Bowlers from the past would suffer on modern pitches and against modern batsmen/bats assuming that they bowled at the same speeds that they did. 

[putrevus]

10 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Our trio of Bumrah, Shami and Ishant came together in January 2018, and have never been awful as a group. In fact, this group together have varied between very good and good.

 

 

 

Bumrah has 62 wickets from just 12 tests at an average of just 19.  This is a great start.

 

Yes ... he is far far away from being an ATG ... but it does not take much to be one of India's best pacers ever. 

 

 

 

 

Ishant is not even close to Kapil.

 

Shami can be more devastating and effective 

than Kapil in certain conditions and always more hostile.

They have not been awful for one reason Bumrah.What happened in England in first two tests when Bumrah was injured. They have been good for one reason Bumrah. If Bumrah is not there things will be different.

 

61 tests does not make anyone best .It is just a good start.Let him reach 200 test wickets then we can revisit his greatness.

 

Shami is not better than Kapil Dev anywherew.Provide Kapil with Ashwin and Jadeja in India , he will avg in low 20s.

Edited November 10, 2019 by putrevus

[putrevus]

Just now, putrevus said:

They have not been awful for one reason Bumrah.What happened in England in first two tests when Bumrah was injured. They have been good for one reason Bumrah. If Bumrah is not there things will be different.

 

61 tests does not make anyone best .It is just a good start.Let him reach 200 test wickets then we can revisit his greatness.

 

Shami is not better than Kapil Dev anywherew.Provide Kapil with Ashwin and Jadeja in India , he will avg in low 20s.

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

They have not been awful for one reason Bumrah.What happened in England in first two tests when Bumrah was injured. They have been good for one reason Bumrah. If Bumrah is not there things will be different.

 

Most good bowling attacks need a leader.  The great Aussie pace attack did not look the same without McGrath.

 

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61 tests does not make anyone best .It is just a good start.Let him reach 200 test wickets then we can revisit his greatness.

 

Never said he is great as of today.

 

But Bumrah is the most complete pacer I have ever seen from India.  

 

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Shami is not better than Kapil Dev anywherew.Provide Kapil with Ashwin and Jadeja in India , he will avg in low 20s.

 

I have watched Kapil bowl for most of his career.  He wasn't that threatening for the last two thirds of his career.  When he bowled, batsmen were usually not that afraid of getting out from the mid 1980s onwards. 

 

Shami has always had a much better SR than Kapil.  And Shami's SR is that of a champion bowler. And his average is good too. Plus he is far more hostile than Kapil ... which puts the batter's under a lot of psychological pressure.

 

Ifs and buts are nothing but conjecture.

Edited November 10, 2019 by express bowling

[Straight Drive]

434 test wickets by an Indian Pacer is all time record.  Kapil's nine wickets in innings record in Ahmedabad versus Pakistan was the best bowling I have ever seen by Indian place bowler. That record is still intact even after more than 3 decades. Kapil was all about performance, one of the most natural batsman and most natural bowler ever. No Indian cricketer has taken as much workload as he has. I have sent lot of phoney allrounders like Abid Ali and others who played before him, with him and after his retirement. He is world level ATG all rounder not just the greatest Indian all rounder.

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

He is world level ATG all rounder not just the greatest Indian all rounder.

 

There is no doubt that Kapil is one of the top all rounders ever to have played the game.

 

But this thread is about Kapil, the strike bowler.

[Straight Drive]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

There is no doubt that Kapil is one of the top all rounders ever to have played the game.

 

But this thread is about Kapil, the strike bowler.

434 test wickets is an achievement for an Indian Pacer. I don't think any other Indian Pacer will take more than even 350 test wickets.

[express bowling]

22 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

434 test wickets is an achievement for an Indian Pacer. I don't think any other Indian Pacer will take more than even 350 test wickets.

 

Kapil actually devalued himself as a bowler by going for that 434 number.

 

He would have been remembered as a much better bowler if he had retired with 300 to 325 wickets.

 

Cumulative records are hardly considered for greatness ... and it is the bowling averages and strike rates and the impact on opposition batsmen and hostility which have defined great pace bowlers.  After all, none of Roberts, Garner or Holding could manage 260 test wickets even.

Edited November 10, 2019 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

21 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

434 test wickets is an achievement for an Indian Pacer. I don't think any other Indian Pacer will take more than even 350 test wickets.

Richard Hadlee - 86 Tests, 431 Wickets

 

Kapil Dev - 131 Tests, 434 Wickets

 

Go figure!

[Straight Drive]

Just now, Rightarmfast said:

Richard Hadlee - 86 Tests, 431 Wickets

 

Kapil Dev - 131 Tests, 434 Wickets

 

Go figure!

I said Indian pacers. Read properly.