India cap is not cheap- players like Dube devalue it

[SK_IH]

On 12/16/2019 at 12:36 AM, Ankit_sharma03 said:

got injured not discarded 

I saw him playing in Mushtaq Ali trophy. If he is fit and playing, how did Dube leapfrog him in terms of ODI selection. That's how Kohli works in nutshell.

Edited December 17, 2019 by SK_IH

[express bowling]

12 hours ago, maniac said:

As ordinary as Jadhav is, He is still leagues ahead of Dube as a batsman. Jadhav is a seasoned domestic performer for many years before he got his big break. He earned his spot over many years of hard work. Not thrown in because he fit a mold.

 

Maniac bhai ...

 

1 )   Dube has a List A batting average of 41.5 at a SR of 121 after playing 37 matches. 

 

After that, he performed consistently for India-A.

 

So, he has come up the ranks via solid performances.

 

2 )   Being a seasoned domestic performer for many years in neither a prerequisite nor necessarily a coveted quality for Team India selection.

 

It often happens because the player is not thought to be international cricket material and he keeps on grinding in domestic cricket.

 

Otherwise, the Unadkats and the Vinay Kumars and the Dindas of the World would have been better picks than Bumrah who debuted in ODIs after just 25 List A matches and in tests after just 26 FC matches.

 

3 )   I don't know how good or how bad Dube would turn out to be in international cricket. Neither do you.  Like most youngsters, he is likely to have multiple issues. What will make or break him is his ability to work on his weaknesses and rectify them ... and his hunger for success.

 

He has been chosen based on solid performances, especially on the strike rate front ... and on the batting average front too.

 

We need to give him time to either succeed or fail.

 

Let's not jump to conclusions before he plays a few matches.

Edited December 17, 2019 by express bowling

[express bowling]

10 hours ago, putrevus said:

I don't understand this notion of Dubey being 6th bowler. Jadhav being 6th bowler is understandable because I can trust Jadhav to score me 100 or 50 when early wickets fall.I don't think Dubey is good enough batsman to replace Jadhav's bat in the lineup.Jadhav is a legtimate batsman.

 

Him or Shankar I don't think they are good enough batsmen as Jadhav.So they are not replacing him in the lineup.Jadeja also hit 3 fc triple 100s , that does not make him a batsman.

 

So they are replacing Pandya not Jadhav.

 

" You don't think "  ... and your thinking is based on what  ?

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 hours ago, SK_IH said:

I saw him playing in Mushtaq Ali trophy. If he is fit and playing, how did Dube leapfrog him in terms of ODI selection. That's how Kohli works in nutshell.

Coz dube came through to t20.....we just played odi now

N if dube is in their plan they ll give him as much exposure

Shankar is batsman for 4-5 position which is filled now.dubey is aiming for 6-7....6 is going to be empty and 7 guy is injured now

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

" You don't think "  ... and your thinking is based on what  ?

the basis on which he thought

 

• Dube, binny are better bowler then pandya 
• and defended Dhawan as better t20 batsman then rahul
• India lacks talented cricketers 

 

His assumption have been spot on 

 

[maniac]

6 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Maniac bhai ...

 

2 )   Being a seasoned domestic performer for many years in neither a prerequisite nor necessarily a coveted quality for Team India selection.

 

It often happens because the player is not thought to be international cricket material and he keeps on grinding in domestic cricket.

 

Otherwise, the Unadkats and the Vinay Kumars and the Dindas of the World would have been better picks than Bumrah who debuted in ODIs after just 25 List A matches and in tests after just 26 FC matches.

I disagree on this. It’s obvious that Unadkut and Vinay Kumar didn’t have what it takes to succeed in international cricket but there is nothing wrong in them being rewarded for consistent performances in domestics.

 

What is the point of hardwork if there is no payoff?

 

They rightfully earned their shot and they were not good enough and rightfully discarded.

 

Now coming to Bumrah at the same time yes there is nothing wrong in fast tacking a guy who looks like an outstanding once in a generation talent.  Sachin back in the day or these days guys like Shaw or even Kohli, Rohit were all fast tracked and that’s fine too.

 

You have to maintain the balance between both.

 

However the problem is fast tracking guys because they fit a mold. Dube has good average and strike rate Yes and might have played a couple of good knocks in domestics  but his volume of runs are too low which tells that he hasn’t played long enough to be exposed to various situations.  That’s what I have a problem with.

 

Neither does he have a long enough body of work nor he looks like a must watch once in a generation talent.

 

Nothing personal against him, hope he succeeds but these kind of selections set a wrong precedent.

 

What if tomorrow  we just select a guy because he bowled a few spells at 150k ? Would upcoming  kids work on their skills and learn the trade or just concentrate on hitting a few overs at 150k speed to get fast tracked. There is a fine balance and Dube’s selection is not correct.

 

He has to play atleast 1-2 seasons more.

 

 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, maniac said:

I disagree on this. It’s obvious that Unadkut and Vinay Kumar didn’t have what it takes to succeed in international cricket but there is nothing wrong in them being rewarded for consistent performances in domestics.

 

What is the point of hardwork if there is no payoff?

 

They rightfully earned their shot and they were not good enough and rightfully discarded.

 

That is not the point I was making.

 

The point I was making was ... being a seasoned domestic performer usually happens to people who are not thought to be good for international cricket ... and that is why they get to be seasoned domestic performers.

 

The good ones usually get picked within a reasonable time.

 

Take the case of Shami ... picked after playing around 30 List A matches and 20 FC matches.

It is not just Bumrah.

 

Quote

Now coming to Bumrah at the same time yes there is nothing wrong in fast tacking a guy who looks like an outstanding once in a generation talent.  Sachin back in the day or these days guys like Shaw or even Kohli, Rohit were all fast tracked and that’s fine too.

 

You have to maintain the balance between both.

 

However the problem is fast tracking guys because they fit a mold. Dube has good average and strike rate Yes and might have played a couple of good knocks in domestics  but his volume of runs are too low which tells that he hasn’t played long enough to be exposed to various situations.  That’s what I have a problem with.

 

Neither does he have a long enough body of work nor he looks like a must watch once in a generation talent.

 

Nothing personal against him, hope he succeeds but these kind of selections set a wrong precedent.

 

What if tomorrow  we just select a guy because he bowled a few spells at 150k ? Would upcoming  kids work on their skills and learn the trade or just concentrate on hitting a few overs at 150k speed to get fast tracked. There is a fine balance and Dube’s selection is not correct.

 

He has to play atleast 1-2 seasons more.

 

 

Dube has been around for 4 seasons in List A and 5 seasons in T20s.

 

37 List A matches and 32 T20s, spanning 4 to 5 sessons, is not a small body of work.

 

It is NOT like he was picked after 1 season and 10 List A games.

Edited December 17, 2019 by express bowling

[maniac]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

That is not the point I was making.

 

The point I was making was ... being a seasoned domestic performer usually happens to people who are not thought to be good for international cricket ... and that is why they get to be seasoned domestic performers.

 

The good ones usually get picked within a reasonable time.

 

Take the case of Shami ... picked after playing around 30 List A matches and 20 FC matches.

It is not just Bumrah.

 

 

Dube has been around for 4 seasons in List A and 5 seasons in T20s.

 

37 List A matches and 32 T20s, spanning 4 to 5 sessons, is not a small body of work.

 

It is NOT like he was picked after 1 season and 10 List A games.

He has a grand total of 614 List A runs with 1 100 and 1 50. Let us say he got exactly a 100 and a 50 in 2 games that is 464 runs in 35 games. just about 13 runs per match. Obviously it doesn't work that way, so he must have played very less innings. Tell me how can that be enough criteria for selection?

 

Before that 1 intl  game he never scored a 50 in domestic T20 or IPL.

 

TBH he does have a decent looking FC numbers. Over 1000 runs and 40 wickets. But sure there are a lot more guys in the pecking order.

 

Before the argument he can bowl- His bowling is not refined enough for international standard clearly.

 

So how does he jump over others? solely because he fits a mold that he can whack a couple of 6's. Now that is what I have objection with.

 

If he had a stellar IPL this year then by all means try him out but he was solely picked on hype. Vihari got lucky that MSK is from the same state ( sure you can add the regionalism angle here) but he saw him from close quarters and picked him and he had the numbers to back it up. Trust me guys like that from other regions get lost in the shuffle all the time due to lack of hype and PR. Vihari himself was never talked about in prior years when he was scoring consistently.

 

Samson deserves T20 shot and so did Krunal in T20 based on IPL exploits but if they are picked or odis I would say the same thing.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by maniac

[maniac]

Again, nothing demeaning about the individual here. I am going to use an unpopular word here "process". We used to have a process before where players rose through the ranks unless there was a prodigy who was spotted, We never gave people a shot solely on IPL exploits or else Valthaty etc would have been playing internationals.

 

Neither did we solely pick someone based on U-19 WC guys like Unmukt Chand etc.

 

Manish Pandey had to go back to the drawing board and perform in domestics to break in to the side.

 

Sure some get fast tracked and some wait longer but there is always a method to the madness here. Picking Dube came totally out of the blue. don't understand this obsession with allrounders. Kapil retired in 1994 and since then for 25 years our cricket has only been on the rise.

 

Sure a once in a lifetime cricketer like Kapil would help.

 

Pandya was good for LOI's as he has been an IPL star.

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Again, nothing demeaning about the individual here. I am going to use an unpopular word here "process". We used to have a process before where players rose through the ranks unless there was a prodigy who was spotted, We never gave people a shot solely on IPL exploits or else Valthaty etc would have been playing internationals.

Coz valthay was an opener and that slot had no vacancy 

Quote

Neither did we solely pick someone based on U-19 WC guys like Unmukt Chand etc.

We didnt pick anyone directly from u-19

Quote

Manish Pandey had to go back to the drawing board and perform in domestics to break in to the side.

Coz he failed in given chances n he was given good amount of chances and his weakness in middle order against spin was found out . Dube hasnt even played enough to call a failure , infact he played a good knock against Wi and took 3 wkts against bang and the games changed . 

 

Also, Pandey cannot bat at 6 or 7 effectively and neither cant roll his arm over

Quote

 Picking Dube came totally out of the blue.

No it wasnt ur in denial about his perfomance in domestic n A games...calling it 1-2 innings whereas it was a full season perfomance extending to A-games

 

Its simple 6-7 slots have vacancy and dube fills the role and competition in that slot is less

Guys like gill, samson, pandey may be 100% times talented but unfit for that role . 

Its simple how difficult is it to understand. mayank , Shaw are very good opener but out of team coz opening has no vacancy 

 

Quote

don't understand this obsession with allrounders. Kapil retired in 1994 and since then for 25 years our cricket has only been on the rise.

Coz ur batsman dont bowl n bowler dnt bat so players are needed to strike a balance

Every team needs to have 6 bowling option now start counting how many options do we have

 

This utter nonsense of extra talent doesnt work in team.....Team is made up player doing diff role . Thats its why its about team not individual .

 u fall for individual image myth which is why u keep taking these names who are unfit for those roles.

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

Whats so difficult to understand 

Demand = supply 

 

Demand - aggresive batsman who call give overs so dube n pandya came in team. 

 

When the demand of top n middle order is already filled what is the point of harping names like gill, samson, mayank, pandey for the role they dont fit in . 

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, maniac said:

 

TBH he does have a decent looking FC numbers. Over 1000 runs and 40 wickets. But sure there are a lot more guys in the pecking order.

Name the guys who can do these 4 jobs at once

 

Hard hitter

Can hit the ball from ball 1 without the use of powerplay n new shiny ball 

Can give overs

In good current form (domestic+ A games) coz current form is taken while selection

 

Go ahead 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, maniac said:

 

Before the argument he can bowl- His bowling is not refined enough for international standard clearly.

 He doesnt have to bowl 10 overs every day

When needed 1-5 max

 

Bowling becomes better with time like in the case of yuvi...his bowling started being more useful post 2007WC by that time he had played 7 yr

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, maniac said:

 

So how does he jump over others? solely because he fits a mold that he can whack a couple of 6's. Now that is what I have objection with.

 

So ur having objection with team playing someone for a role and a player being rewarded for good season....in before u say many had has 4-5 good season well they dont fit the most important bill teams need 

 

N u dont have issue with TM wasting games on jadhav who has no future whom they didnt trust in Wc rather then investing on someone new

Edited December 17, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

On 12/15/2019 at 9:32 PM, sandeep said:

Dubey is getting games due to Bewda bias.  Shastri is in "no-homo" love with Dube and his vibe.  

 

Vijay Shankar is at least as good a bowler, and by yards the better batsman for ODI cricket.  T20s ok I can see an argument, even I don't agree with it.  ODIs?  This guy does not deserve it.  

Shankar n dubey dont fight for same spot

 

Shankar is more of 4-5 position batsman which is taken , Shankar cant come n start smashing from ball-1 

Dube at 6-7 which has vacancy 

 

Bowling wise i dont see much diff , shankar bowling at this stage wud be better coz he has played a lot of FC as compare to Dubey

[express bowling]

8 hours ago, maniac said:

He has a grand total of 614 List A runs with 1 100 and 1 50. Let us say he got exactly a 100 and a 50 in 2 games that is 464 runs in 35 games. just about 13 runs per match. Obviously it doesn't work that way, so he must have played very less innings. Tell me how can that be enough criteria for selection?

 

Before that 1 intl  game he never scored a 50 in domestic T20 or IPL.

 

TBH he does have a decent looking FC numbers. Over 1000 runs and 40 wickets. But sure there are a lot more guys in the pecking order.

 

Before the argument he can bowl- His bowling is not refined enough for international standard clearly.

 

So how does he jump over others? solely because he fits a mold that he can whack a couple of 6's. Now that is what I have objection with.

 

 

 

Who is he jumping over ?

 

Lower number of 50s and 100s can happen often enough to lower middle order batters.

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, maniac said:

Again, nothing demeaning about the individual here. I am going to use an unpopular word here "process". We used to have a process before where players rose through the ranks unless there was a prodigy who was spotted, We never gave people a shot solely on IPL exploits or else Valthaty etc would have been playing internationals.

 

Neither did we solely pick someone based on U-19 WC guys like Unmukt Chand etc.

 

Manish Pandey had to go back to the drawing board and perform in domestics to break in to the side.

 

Sure some get fast tracked and some wait longer but there is always a method to the madness here. Picking Dube came totally out of the blue. don't understand this obsession with allrounders. Kapil retired in 1994 and since then for 25 years our cricket has only been on the rise.

 

Sure a once in a lifetime cricketer like Kapil would help.

 

Pandya was good for LOI's as he has been an IPL star.

 

 

Dubey has barely played IPL. So isn't given a shot based on IPL. Hevdid well in domestic, did well for India A and picked for India because at 7, you need someone who can hit the ball, not a bowler but a batsman who can bowl a bit.

[rkt.india]

On 12/16/2019 at 11:28 PM, maniac said:

As ordinary as Jadhav is, He is still leagues ahead of Dube as a batsman. Jadhav is a seasoned domestic performer for many years before he got his big break. He earned his spot over many years of hard work. Not thrown in because he fit a mold.

Jadhav is a cheeky player. Dubey will be a match winner. We need match winners and not journey man players.

[Global.Baba]

What’s this lame  excuse of being a high risk player, he is just not international standard.

 

You see world class top 3-4, you see world class bowling line up bar 1-2 like Thakur and then you have this guy.

 

Cant beleive India doesn’t have better players than him. Seems like one of the players Nzl usually pick from their small pool who does a little bit of this and that.

[Global.Baba]

If you think Dube will perform against Aus,Eng or even next tier teams like SA,Pak and Nzl you are blind and haven’t seen this mediocre player.

 

Time to go back to domestics and improve his game atleast in one aspect. Don’t see him miraculously becoming a 135-140k bowler with skills so hope he becomes a proper batsman Atleast. He is from Mumbai of all places and hope the batting culture out there helps him in that regard