List of individuals who deserve credit for India’s fast bowling?

[kirkutfan]

4 hours ago, maniac said:

Just look at WC timelines to see how we have evolved 

 

I will start from 83  because we obviously sucked in the bowling department prior to that

 

83- Kapil + bits and pieces trundlers

87- Kapil ,Chetan Sharma,Prabhakar

92- Kapil, Prabhakar,Srinath, Subroto Banarjee

96- Srinath, Prasad, Prabhakar, Ankola 

99- Srinath,Prasad, Mohanty,Agarkar,Robin Singh

2003- Srinath,Nehra,Zak,Agarkar

2007- Zak,Agarkar, Pathan, Sreeshanth, Munaf

2011- Zak,Nehra, Munaf,Sreeshanth

2015- Umesh,Shami,Mohit,Bhuvi,Binny

2019- Bumrah,Bhuvi, Shami, Hardik Pandya

 

 

That seems like a perfect evolutionary list to me

 

Since Kapil Dev is the pioneer, his coach Desh Prem Azad deserves a bit of credit too. He was the coach of Kapil Dev, Chetan Sharma and Yograj Singh. Not bad for an era when we had no history of producing quicks.

[Mosher]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Sure inspiring at an individual level but Aaron has not broken the ceiling like Yadav and Shami.  I am not mentioning Ishu ( damn apple by default goes Ishu into autocorrect mode for me  ) because he has had backing from his captains. Pace + skills is what I love. 
 

You probably know better but Shami has great seam position, Umesh has a killer outswinger. They bowl at the same pace as Varun give or take. Aaron from what I have seen has none.

 

Bumrah has got mad skills. 
 

Aaron can keep his pace but needs to work on skills as well. Unless you are ridiculously fast  at 150+ like Tait or someone, just bowling at 145+ doesn’t cut it these days. 
 

look at cummins, he was 150+ but now he is 140-145 range with skills. Starc can be one dimensional but has got a killer yorker, Archer has a damn good short ball, Rabada has skills.

 

This might be unpopular opinion but I will pick Bhuvi over Aaron (last seen of him version).

 

Sure if your option is Unadkut or Kulkarni and Aaron then Aaron any day.

I am not saying pace is everything. I am with you that Aaron is less skillful in things like moving the ball, accuracy which are needed to succeed in international cricket and there are other bowlers to look upto in Indian cricket who have those skills. I was just talking about Aaron's pace which is one aspect which youngsters can look up to and not start trundling the moment one gets injured.  

Edited November 28, 2019 by Mosher

[MechEng]

IPL deserves more credit than any other.

 

Sharing dressing rooms with fast bowling greats while playing for a franchise > Training in MRF pace academy.

 

They say when you are in a company of good people, you automatically try to develop better habits in order not to feel left out, and that's what IPL did when Steyn, Morkel, Lee, Flintoff, Johnson and former greats were present with young fresh domestic pace bowlers.

Edited November 28, 2019 by MechEng

[maniac]

48 minutes ago, Mosher said:

I am not saying pace is everything. I am with you that Aaron is less skillful in things like moving the ball, accuracy which are needed to succeed in international cricket and there are other bowlers to look upto in Indian cricket who have those skills. I was just talking about Aaron's pace which is one aspect which youngsters can look up to and not start trundling the moment one gets injured.  

Fair enough 

[express bowling]

The Indian economy opened up in 1991. It took more than a decade to see its effects trickling in among the masses. But Indians gradually learned to compete with the world, as well as amongst themselves, and do well.  They became more confident and competitive with passing time.

 

In the world of cricket, we saw the Indian cricketers of the 2000s and 2010s decades become confident and lose their inferiority complex. The successful Indians of today have a sense of entitlement. We think we should win, we should bowl fast, we should do well. This changed mindset has been the biggest factor contributing to our fast bowling renaissance. 

 

As India improved economically over time ( we are now the 5th largest economy in the world as per IMF 2019 forecast ), our infrastructure improved a lot ... and our cricket infrastructure improved too. Top quality facilities and coaches / trainers at all levels have helped us groom fast bowlers.

 

Picking players from all over India, starting from early 2000s decade, has resulted in a much larger fast bowling talent pool to choose from. Till the 1990s, most players came from 5 or 6 states.

 

Fitness culture and gym culture has set in in India too. Even more so among sportsmen. Cricketers are generally fitter and stronger now. This is helping a lot.

 

Strength and Conditioning Training methods and fitness maintainence of fast bowlers have undergone a sea change in the last 5 years. As a trainer at the NCA said, nowadays the training is aimed at developing fast-twitch muscle fibres. Earlier, a lot of training was done to stimulate the slow twitch muscle fibres, like long distance running. The recovery methods adopted were often passive earlier. Now, they use active recovery methods like relaxed swimming. Shankar Basu has played a crucial role in all this in our Senior team.  But there are other great Strength and Conditioning coaches in our system too.

 

The food habits have seen drastic improvements. Earlier, pacers used to eat a lot of fried and spicy food. Now, it is usually grilled or boiled. Protein quality has improved. Diet is managed in a scientific way, as per requirements of fast bowling and modified to suit that individual's specific needs.

 

Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron were not very successful bowlers till 2017. But both maintained high speeds in this 6 year span. And they made the upcoming fast bowlers and their coaches believe that Indian bodies too can bowl fast for multiple years. This is the biggest role that these 2 bowlers have played in Indian cricket.  Earlier, Srinath bowled quickly for 7 or 8 years too, but he was considered as a fluke.

 

The quality of pitches in Indian domestic cricket, with more grass and good bounce, have helped encourage the upcoming quicks.

 

The regular use of speed guns at all levels, have given the Indian pacers a quantifiable target to achieve in terms of speed. They know that if they are bowling 140 k+ then they are quick enough for international cricket. Plus they are getting to see that Indian quicks are bowling as quickly or quicker than pacers of other countries. 

 

The IPL has enabled young uncapped  Indian pacers to work with international coaches and see top pacers train and prepare for matches.  They know what level they will have to reach.

 

Kohli and Arun have used the effects and benefits of all of the above very well and have put together a very commendable fast bowling unit in test matches. Kohli's love for fast bowling has made sure that our pacers get to bowl a lot in tests in India too.

 

And Kohli tries to pick lots of 140 k+ pacers in test matches. This is the area we lagged in. Our pacers always had accuracy and swing. But the added dimension of pace and bounce, along with accuracy and movement, have made our pacers so lethal. Plus, the fitness culture that Kohli has inculcated into our team. have made it possible for our quicks to sustain pace and intensity throughout the day.  (  But what happens to Kohli in LOIs ... why does he choose so many medium pacers !!  )

 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

5 hours ago, maniac said:

Sure inspiring at an individual level but Aaron has not broken the ceiling like Yadav and Shami.  I am not mentioning Ishu ( damn apple by default goes Ishu into autocorrect mode for me  ) because he has had backing from his captains. Pace + skills is what I love. 
 

You probably know better but Shami has great seam position, Umesh has a killer outswinger. They bowl at the same pace as Varun give or take. Aaron from what I have seen has none.

 

Bumrah has got mad skills. 
 

Aaron can keep his pace but needs to work on skills as well. Unless you are ridiculously fast  at 150+ like Tait or someone, just bowling at 145+ doesn’t cut it these days. 
 

look at cummins, he was 150+ but now he is 140-145 range with skills. Starc can be one dimensional but has got a killer yorker, Archer has a damn good short ball, Rabada has skills.

 

This might be unpopular opinion but I will pick Bhuvi over Aaron (last seen of him version).

 

Sure if your option is Unadkut or Kulkarni and Aaron then Aaron any day.

Kids have to be inspired at an individual level to take up fast bowling and trt to bowl fast. They must have idol to follow. India did not have that before Aaron and Umesh. Srinath was there but he is rarely talked about. Neither speed guns were used then. Zaheer Khan can't inspire anyone who once said Indian bodies aren't made for fast bowling. He wasn't hard working enough. These two guys didn't compromise with pace despite multiple back stress fractures. These two may not have the best of the skills or records but these two are the pioneer of modern Indian fast bowling and inspired kids everywhere to bowl fast.

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Kids have to be inspired at an individual level to take up fast bowling and trt to bowl fast. They must have idol to follow. India did not have that before Aaron and Umesh. Srinath was there but he is rarely talked about. Neither speed guns were used then. Zaheer Khan can't inspire anyone who once said Indian bodies aren't made for fast bowling. He wasn't hard working enough. These two guys didn't compromise with pace despite multiple back stress fractures. These two may not have the best of the skills or records but these two are the pioneer of modern Indian fast bowling and inspired kids everywhere to bowl fast.

India now needs Bumrah who can be legitimately be great fast bowler with long career.That will inspire them to be great not just bowl fast.

Edited November 28, 2019 by putrevus

[javier26]

9 hours ago, express bowling said:

The Indian economy opened up in 1991. It took more than a decade to see its effects trickling in among the masses. But Indians gradually learned to compete with the world, as well as amongst themselves, and do well.  They became more confident and competitive with passing time.

 

In the world of cricket, we saw the Indian cricketers of the 2000s and 2010s decades become confident and lose their inferiority complex. The successful Indians of today have a sense of entitlement. We think we should win, we should bowl fast, we should do well. This changed mindset has been the biggest factor contributing to our fast bowling renaissance. 

 

As India improved economically over time ( we are now the 5th largest economy in the world as per IMF 2019 forecast ), our infrastructure improved a lot ... and our cricket infrastructure improved too. Top quality facilities and coaches / trainers at all levels have helped us groom fast bowlers.

 

Picking players from all over India, starting from early 2000s decade, has resulted in a much larger fast bowling talent pool to choose from. Till the 1990s, most players came from 5 or 6 states.

 

Fitness culture and gym culture has set in in India too. Even more so among sportsmen. Cricketers are generally fitter and stronger now. This is helping a lot.

 

Strength and Conditioning Training methods and fitness maintainence of fast bowlers have undergone a sea change in the last 5 years. As a trainer at the NCA said, nowadays the training is aimed at developing fast-twitch muscle fibres. Earlier, a lot of training was done to stimulate the slow twitch muscle fibres, like long distance running. The recovery methods adopted were often passive earlier. Now, they use active recovery methods like relaxed swimming. Shankar Basu has played a crucial role in all this in our Senior team.  But there are other great Strength and Conditioning coaches in our system too.

 

The food habits have seen drastic improvements. Earlier, pacers used to eat a lot of fried and spicy food. Now, it is usually grilled or boiled. Protein quality has improved. Diet is managed in a scientific way, as per requirements of fast bowling and modified to suit that individual's specific needs.

 

Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron were not very successful bowlers till 2017. But both maintained high speeds in this 6 year span. And they made the upcoming fast bowlers and their coaches believe that Indian bodies too can bowl fast for multiple years. This is the biggest role that these 2 bowlers have played in Indian cricket.  Earlier, Srinath bowled quickly for 7 or 8 years too, but he was considered as a fluke.

 

The quality of pitches in Indian domestic cricket, with more grass and good bounce, have helped encourage the upcoming quicks.

 

The regular use of speed guns at all levels, have given the Indian pacers a quantifiable target to achieve in terms of speed. They know that if they are bowling 140 k+ then they are quick enough for international cricket. Plus they are getting to see that Indian quicks are bowling as quickly or quicker than pacers of other countries. 

 

The IPL has enabled young uncapped  Indian pacers to work with international coaches and see top pacers train and prepare for matches.  They know what level they will have to reach.

 

Kohli and Arun have used the effects and benefits of all of the above very well and have put together a very commendable fast bowling unit in test matches. Kohli's love for fast bowling has made sure that our pacers get to bowl a lot in tests in India too.

 

And Kohli tries to pick lots of 140 k+ pacers in test matches. This is the area we lagged in. Our pacers always had accuracy and swing. But the added dimension of pace and bounce, along with accuracy and movement, have made our pacers so lethal. Plus, the fitness culture that Kohli has inculcated into our team. have made it possible for our quicks to sustain pace and intensity throughout the day.  (  But what happens to Kohli in LOIs ... why does he choose so many medium pacers !!  )

 

 

this and other posts are kool..  

 

But still doesnt explain why so much work had to be put to produce fast bowlers in India while Pakistan were producing it inspite of a crappy economy,  no fitness culture,  same unhealthy food habits , no IPL,  no advancements in diet,  no strength conditioning , no top facilities,  no world class coaches,  no trainers ?

 

How were the Pakistanis ( same genetic breed as Indians)  able to produce fast bowlers since the 70s and developed a fast bowling legacy inspite of facing same hurdles and even worse?  

Edited November 28, 2019 by javier26

[mancalledsting]

On 11/27/2019 at 2:11 PM, gakgupta said:

MSD deserves lots of credit....



Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk
 

True- as soon as he agreed to leave captaincy, our fortunes changesd. You could argue Jean the guy who started it all off. 

[Rightarmfast]

2 hours ago, javier26 said:

this and other posts are kool..  

 

But still doesnt explain why so much work had to be put to produce fast bowlers in India while Pakistan were producing it inspite of a crappy economy,  no fitness culture,  same unhealthy food habits , no IPL,  no advancements in diet,  no strength conditioning , no top facilities,  no world class coaches,  no trainers ?

 

How were the Pakistanis ( same genetic breed as Indians)  able to produce fast bowlers since the 70s and developed a fast bowling legacy inspite of facing same hurdles and even worse?  

Good point about the economy and the advent of fast bowling. No, both are not related. The economy part was only added as a metaphor by express. The point over here is, even in 70's and 80's we certainly had quick bowlers,  but the selection criteria around then were different. 

Pataudi set the precedent of playing only spinners, right from the 60's. The Indians never evolved for a whole 30-35 yrs. Fast bowlers were ignored. 

 

Pakistan's culture of fast bowling was inculcated by Imran Khan who was just a military medium pacer when he started off. But thanks to his education in England, he was influenced by British cricketers and worked on increasing his pace. You see, had there been no British influence on Imran Khan, there would be no fast bowling legacy in Pakistan too!