someone Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, sandeep said: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/85-year-olds-young-killers-used-to-greet-her-in-locality/articleshow/74602557.cms Yes, there are Salmans that murdered Ankits. But there are also Arun and Varun who killed an 85 year old Begum. Let's have the guts to criticize both. If one is a jihadi, the other is also a hate-filled criminal. This is not an attempt at any sort of equivalence. India needs to be better than this. No Hindus believe that just because one is Hindu, they are innocent. Whereas, there are plenty of Muslims and "confused" Hindus who believe one is innocent just because they are Muslim.... raki05 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: You expect Hindus to be like Gandhi to accept they were assaulted and not retaliate? No. I want you to explicitly acknowledge both murders are the outcome of bigotry and crime. That's all. There is no "monkey-balancing" - its a tragedy. That's what it is. And instead of reflexively finger pointing, let's not miss the forest for the trees, and talk about the bigger long-term picture, and try to limit the damage that hate propaganda can do. Whether its hate against the kufr, or hate against the 'over-reproducing' muslim. Mariyam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 Just now, someone said: No Hindus believe that just because one is Hindu, they are innocent. Whereas, there are plenty of Muslims and "confused" Hindus who believe one is innocent just because they are Muslim.... How about you speak for yourself, instead of repeating hollow stereotypes about others. It is this kind of hate-filled speech that slowly builds up more and more, normalizing even worse bigotry, and emboldening the likes of murdering Salmans and Aruns, into thinking their actions are justified. That is my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 16 minutes ago, Gollum said: Punish all murderers irrespective of background. It is one thing (unfortunate) to act in self defence or people dying in cross fire, but to deliberately plan and do target killings of others, despicable. Yes, let's have the moral courage to say just this. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilander Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 17 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Ankit’s killer Salman, Rioter Gunman - Shahrukh. Bas Aamir, Saif, ko pakadna baki hain. i thought the smug man walking in front was salman , indian idiot police men should learn how to behave when they apprehend criminals. And is this video authentic ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, sandeep said: No. I want you to explicitly acknowledge both murders are the outcome of bigotry and crime. That's all. There is no "monkey-balancing" - its a tragedy. That's what it is. And instead of reflexively finger pointing, let's not miss the forest for the trees, and talk about the bigger long-term picture, and try to limit the damage that hate propaganda can do. Whether its hate against the kufr, or hate against the 'over-reproducing' muslim. So, you think talking about Ankit and the way he has been killed is hate propaganda? How about hate against the people who believe in something called 'kufr'? Is that finger pointing too? When a riot happens in India, it is not count of the dead-bodies that is part of the narrative. but about what triggered it. Forgetting that point will give rise to future such riots. You want to forget Godhra and only talk about a backlash, keep doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someone Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, sandeep said: How about you speak for yourself, instead of repeating hollow stereotypes about others. It is this kind of hate-filled speech that slowly builds up more and more, normalizing even worse bigotry, and emboldening the likes of murdering Salmans and Aruns, into thinking their actions are justified. That is my point. You are soft. Just because my statement "hurt" your feelings does not make it a hate-speech. Facts don't care about feelings. I suggest you to get away from your "comfort" zone, go and interact with actual people or other forums and see how many takers are for Muslim aggression in this protests. You won't go far and will be outcast quickly. It's fortunate that in this website, we accept all sides and can contempt all bad things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 25 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: You want to forget Godhra and only talk about a backlash, keep doing it. Buddy you are making assumptions left and right. My parent's ancestral home is near Godhra. Just because I say a thing or 2 that you don't agree with, doesn't mean that you are right in constructing an imaginary opponent who's 'leftwing' or 'liberandu' or "forgets Godhra". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 1 minute ago, sandeep said: Buddy you are making assumptions left and right. My parent's ancestral home is near Godhra. Just because I say a thing or 2 that you don't agree with, doesn't mean that you are right in constructing an imaginary opponent who's 'leftwing' or 'liberandu' or "forgets Godhra". That was an equivalence. Speaking of Ankit doesn't make people bigotted and propagandist and it doesn't mean not condoning unfortunate innocent Muslim deaths. It is the poor that always get impacted in riots. The Chandbagh riot is the machinations of the some of the influential Muslims , that needs to be focussed on. The paid hired goons from across the border (UP) to perpetuate the crimes on Hindus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny_Pacquiao Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 46 minutes ago, sandeep said: No. I want you to explicitly acknowledge both murders are the outcome of bigotry and crime. That's all. There is no "monkey-balancing" - its a tragedy. That's what it is. And instead of reflexively finger pointing, let's not miss the forest for the trees, and talk about the bigger long-term picture, and try to limit the damage that hate propaganda can do. Whether its hate against the kufr, or hate against the 'over-reproducing' muslim. you're preaching to the wrong people. the media are the ones that selectively report on riots. some create narratives supporting muslim victimhood, others (incl. BJP themselves) create narrative of hindu victimhood. both narratives have their audience. all we can do, as common people, is read everything - and point out biases and double standards. and that's what this thread is for. crimes against hindus by muslims and non-hindu identifying people are often ignored by many media outlets, particularly in the west. mishra, sergio04, coffee_rules and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 @coffee_rules This is an example of hate speech that has become so normalized, that politicians are confident in uttering it publicly, knowing that it will gain them approval, not cost it. And that is a troubling symptom, for a well-wisher of India. https://scroll.in/video/955329/coronavirus-saying-aadab-sends-infected-air-into-the-mouth-claims-bjp-leader-ramesh-bidhuri Quote In a bizarre statement, Bharatiya Janata Party leader and parliamentarian Ramesh Bidhuri has said that using “namaste” as a greeting prevents contamination from the Covid-19, but using “adaab” does not. “Greeting people with a namaskaar is India’s heritage,” Bidhuri told ABP News. “Experts have suggested it should be used as a greeting to prevent contact in order to avoid the coronavirus, but not adaab, because it directs the rays of the air into the mouth.” We have seen such bigoted ignorant statements in the past from greenbro 'leaders', using disgusting language about Hindus, comparing throwing colors on holi to spitting at each other etc. Such hateful speech is a mirror image of those you hate so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Manny_Pacquiao said: you're preaching to the wrong people. the media are the ones that selectively report on riots. some create narratives supporting muslim victimhood, others (incl. BJP themselves) create narrative of hindu victimhood. both narratives have their audience. all we can do, as common people, is read everything - and point out biases and double standards. and that's what this thread is for. crimes against hindus by muslims and non-hindu identifying people are often ignored by many media outlets, particularly in the west. wah, social justice warrior, good job 'balancing the score' on bad media reporting, by 'bashing muslims' and fingerpointing in forum posts. Congratulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny_Pacquiao Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, sandeep said: We have seen such bigoted ignorant statements in the past from greenbro 'leaders', using disgusting language about Hindus, comparing throwing colors on holi to spitting at each other etc. Such hateful speech is a mirror image of those you hate so much. i agree, its incredibly crass. i dont like it either. BUT...india has a population that is not fully literate. and the key constituencies are not people like ourselves - who are educated and reasonably well travelled. a country's political discourse reflects the education of its population. until we improve literacy, this is what we'll see. mind you, even in strong 'democracies' - we get crass statements from politicians. think george w bush with his overt christian-ness, or even trump's inflammatory garbage. people are swayed by emotions, not by rational dialogue. 15 minutes ago, sandeep said: wah, social justice warrior, good job 'balancing the score' on bad media reporting, by 'bashing muslims' and fingerpointing in forum posts. Congratulations. i disagree with this........ i simply took a position, and argued in favor of it. are we not allowed to be opinionated? thats the whole point of politics - its supposed to be polarizing! thats what makes it fun! sergio04 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergio04 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, sandeep said: @coffee_rules This is an example of hate speech that has become so normalized, that politicians are confident in uttering it publicly, knowing that it will gain them approval, not cost it. And that is a troubling symptom, for a well-wisher of India. https://scroll.in/video/955329/coronavirus-saying-aadab-sends-infected-air-into-the-mouth-claims-bjp-leader-ramesh-bidhuri We have seen such bigoted ignorant statements in the past from greenbro 'leaders', using disgusting language about Hindus, comparing throwing colors on holi to spitting at each other etc. Such hateful speech is a mirror image of those you hate so much. I don't get it. It is stupid to compare Namaste and adaab, he is an ignorant man. What has that got to do with the OP where a Muslims are propagiting anti-Hindu sentiments in public places (Shaheen bagh) with the blessing of the left liberal junta including western media. Why does that talk being compared somebody taking BS? You should do a better job of whataboutry! Edited March 13, 2020 by coffee_rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny_Pacquiao Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 46 minutes ago, sandeep said: We have seen such bigoted ignorant statements in the past from greenbro 'leaders', using disgusting language about Hindus, comparing throwing colors on holi to spitting at each other etc. Such hateful speech is a mirror image of those you hate so much. 16 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: I don't get it. It is stupid to compare Namaste and adaab, he is an ignorant man. What has that got to do with the OP where a Muslims are propagiting anti-Hindu sentiments in public places (Shaheen bagh) with the blessing of the left liberal junta including western media. Why does that talk being compared somebody taking BS? You should do a better job of whataboutry! he's missing the point. absurd political rhetoric by BJP leaders is often covered by the media. extensively. you dont have to mention it on forums like these. absurd political rhetoric by opposition and muslim leaders doesn't get the same level of coverage, and is often ignored. thats why people are tempted to mention it more explicitly on forums like these. twitter just locked a verified account for accurately reporting the death of 10 hindus in the delhi riots: https://twitter.com/OpIndia_com/status/1238428248989519874 coffee_rules, diga, someone and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 34 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said: absurd political rhetoric by BJP leaders is often covered by the media. extensively. you dont have to mention it on forums like these. absurd political rhetoric by opposition and muslim leaders doesn't get the same level of coverage 2 wrongs never make a right, and just because there are jihadi murderers on this planet, doesn't mean that we should condone or tolerate non-jihadi 'hindu' ones. The fact that you can't help but bring up 'absurd political rhetoric' by muslims is a good demonstration of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny_Pacquiao Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 1 minute ago, sandeep said: 2 wrongs never make a right, and just because there are jihadi murderers on this planet, doesn't mean that we should condone or tolerate non-jihadi 'hindu' ones. The fact that you can't help but bring up 'absurd political rhetoric' by muslims is a good demonstration of the problem. I'm not tolerating anything. i'm arguing in favor of this thread's existence. it would not be needed if we had an impartial media free of vested interests. this is the drawback of democracy, i'm afraid. especially in a "third world" country. politicians have to appeal to the audience, and it becomes farcical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raki05 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 4 hours ago, sandeep said: Yes, let's have the moral courage to say just this. That's all. Good luck with Shanti prachar just because you think this is just result of hate mongering it's not.....y don't you tell me any riot between Hindus and other minorities and similarly riots or terrorism done by Hindus in any other nations wherever they are. Why are Muslims are problem child for entire world. Show me a peaceful Muslim nation or whichever country they are living in some significant number never cause any nuisance or terrorism. So stop living in idle world that if Hindu stop giving **** about their day today hate speeches their Saheen Bagh like bullying and Bengal and kerala like mass conversion of hindus and love jihad all will be good. Coz only a Napunshak LL take these goons bullying and ready to change their identity for the peace of shake for some liberal. speedheat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Manny_Pacquiao said: a country's political discourse reflects the education of its population. until we improve literacy, this is what we'll see. mind you, even in strong 'democracies' - we get crass statements from politicians. think george w bush with his overt christian-ness, or even trump's inflammatory garbage. people are swayed by emotions, not by rational dialogue Don't disagree. But if such hate-filled speech becomes part of the normal discourse, instead of rightly being criticized and shamed as extreme - it will be inevitably followed by even worse speech, and shortly action. This is human nature, and social behavior - it is very predictable and very consistent. Its a vicious cycle. The ethnic cleansing in Rwanda between Hutus and Tutsis, was preced by months and months of radio propaganda demonizing one tribe as 'cockroaches'. It conditioned and prepared the herd public when the violence broke out, and allowed it to escalate to terrible proportions. Civilized, educated folks have the responsibility to stop such poison from infecting our society. Whether its Delhi, Chand Bagh, or ICF. Its your duty as a citizen. This idiot who said this about Adaab is ignorant, maybe illiterate. What's your excuse. You cannot be demonizing a section of your country's population constantly - it inevitably leads to eventual mob violence. It is dangerous. Whether its targeted at Hindus/Christians/Ahmediyas in greenbroland, or muslims in our motherland. When you keep trash-talking about christian missionaries - whom I detest btw - it leads to a crazy idiot burning a priest in his car. Or some idiot burning a muslim laborer in the name of fighting love-jihad in Rajasthan. Normalizing and mainstreaming bigotry, leads to violence. And this is not in one direction. I am equally against similar speech from muslims too. And I am under no illusions about the structural and systemic challenge of Islamic fundamentalism either. But the latter should not, can not, be used to justify hate speech against muslims also. You have to recognize how hypocritical it is, to attack Islamic fundamentalism for its bigotry, while practising bigotry against non-fundamentalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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