Is Imran Khan the dumbest leader to come out of the Land of the Pure in its 72 odd years history?

[Stradlater]

I mean the likes of Zia and Zardari were bad enough but this moron has set a new benchmark for the chewtiapa ever since he assumed the reins of power a few years ago. 

 

Discuss. 

[Stradlater]

Heck I would even choose 'taunti chor' Akhilesh Yadav over him and that's saying something. 

[Manny_Pacquiao]

He's a puppet.

 

the real power lies with the army. 

 

as long as the government remains below the army in the chain of command, we'll see the subcontinent permanently at war.

 

the pakistani army has to be removed.

[Gollum]

Also the most annoying !!!

[Autonomous]

Indeed. 

 

Nawaz (2013-2017) was the best. 

[Manny_Pacquiao]

3 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

Indeed. 

 

Nawaz (2013-2017) was the best. 

 

Nawaz tried normalizing relations with india. he treated relations with india like a family affair. problem is, he wasn't taken seriously by the army.

 

remember, modi actually met nawaz in 2015 and tried to work out a deal. the pakistani army replaces any civilian government that tries to talk peace with india.

 

what can india possibly discuss with imran khan? he's just playing to the pakistani army's agenda of creating fear, making the case for war, and asking for foreign intervention.

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Also the most annoying !!!

Not really, an impotent puppet like him has very limited ability to annoy.  More like a buzzing mosquito, if you calm down, you'll realize this one can't bite, so you can either tune him out, or just laugh at him.

[Stradlater]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

Indeed. 

 

Nawaz (2013-2017) was the best. 

How much truth is there in the corruption charges levelled against him? 

 

 

[sandeep]

53 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

he's just playing to the pakistani army's agenda of creating fear, making the case for war, and asking for foreign intervention.

Even worse, now he has been ideologically and emotionally scarred post-Balakote. He had fantasies of being the 'hero' that will bring peace to the sub-continent, not realizing that his puppet-masters are actively working to prevent that from ever happening.  When India responded to the PakMil mafia's attacks assertively, instead of his impotent 'talks' offer, he feels burnt. He's made it personal.  Now he lashes out at every opportune or inopportune moment.  Because instead of his fantasies, he's reduced to impotent screaming and whining - that's when he can afford to take a break from begging for loans and debt relief.

 

Reality is that even the PakMil mafia now realizes that their space to operate 'kinetically' is significantly limited, and wants to reset the clock and make deals that previous Indian governments came close to entertaining.  What they do not realize - maybe they do, but don't want to accept it -  is that circumstances have changed, and they are not going to get the concessions in 2020 and beyond, that they may have been offered in the early 2000s or even as late as 2007.  Folks who follow Ind-Pak closely would know about the back-channel discussions that made significant progress - progress that was destroyed by the 26/11 terror attacks.  Now the delusions and fig-leafs of "joint administration" etc are off the table.   The BJP govt is in no mood to make concessions - they have actually raised the hostility stakes.  And rightly so. 

 

History proves that if India takes a generous or even benign attitude towards the Pakistan establishment, all that does, is allows them to regain strength, and they come back with renewed hostility towards India.  Instead of reacting positively to overtures from Imran or even the PakMil mafia - even if they are genuine, it is actually in Indian interests to ramp up the hostility.  And keep Pakistan trapped in the vicious cycle that it has initiated.  At least for a decade or so.  The arc of time, and economic growth is on our side.  The longer we wait, the stronger we get, and the weaker they get.  No need to interrupt that process.  We can afford the current status quo, they cannot.  

 

This is why when Imran was elected PM, the Indian govt cancelled scheduled talks, using the reason of the Burhan Wani stamps issued by Pakistan postal service.  And ramped up the verbal attacks.  They wanted to make sure that Imran's overtures of peace don't get traction, because that could translate into international pressure on us.  

[sandeep]

6 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

How much truth is there in the corruption charges levelled against him? 

 

 

Plenty.  But everybody's naked in that particular Hammam.  Including PakMil, and even Imran and the members of his "King's Party" that were rounded by that ISI general, who specializes in controlling Pak politics.

[Autonomous]

19 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

How much truth is there in the corruption charges levelled against him? 

 

 

If you think corruption isn't common atleast in SC then you are naive. Imran Khan himself has all the corrupt guys in his party. The claims of naya pak saaf pakistan are garbage. 

 

Nawaz for all his flaws was progressive in his approach. Imran is a dud and joke. Imran has no stake in Pakistan, once his political interest in pak is over, he will fly out.

 

Nawaz came all the way from grass-roots and is aware of demographics, norms, business and diplomacy.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

15 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Even worse, now he has been ideologically and emotionally scarred post-Balakote. He had fantasies of being the 'hero' that will bring peace to the sub-continent, not realizing that his puppet-masters are actively working to prevent that from ever happening.  When India responded to the PakMil mafia's attacks assertively, instead of his impotent 'talks' offer, he feels burnt. He's made it personal.  Now he lashes out at every opportune or inopportune moment.  Because instead of his fantasies, he's reduced to impotent screaming and whining - that's when he can afford to take a break from begging for loans and debt relief.

 

Reality is that even the PakMil mafia now realizes that their space to operate 'kinetically' is significantly limited, and wants to reset the clock and make deals that previous Indian governments came close to entertaining.  What they do not realize - maybe they do, but don't want to accept it -  is that circumstances have changed, and they are not going to get the concessions in 2020 and beyond, that they may have been offered in the early 2000s or even as late as 2007.  Folks who follow Ind-Pak closely would know about the back-channel discussions that made significant progress - progress that was destroyed by the 26/11 terror attacks.  Now the delusions and fig-leafs of "joint administration" etc are off the table.   The BJP govt is in no mood to make concessions - they have actually raised the hostility stakes.  And rightly so. 

 

History proves that if India takes a generous or even benign attitude towards the Pakistan establishment, all that does, is allows them to regain strength, and they come back with renewed hostility towards India.  Instead of reacting positively to overtures from Imran or even the PakMil mafia - even if they are genuine, it is actually in Indian interests to ramp up the hostility.  And keep Pakistan trapped in the vicious cycle that it has initiated.  At least for a decade or so.  The arc of time, and economic growth is on our side.  The longer we wait, the stronger we get, and the weaker they get.  No need to interrupt that process.  We can afford the current status quo, they cannot.  

 

This is why when Imran was elected PM, the Indian govt cancelled scheduled talks, using the reason of the Burhan Wani stamps issued by Pakistan postal service.  And ramped up the verbal attacks.  They wanted to make sure that Imran's overtures of peace don't get traction, because that could translate into international pressure on us.  

 

Imran isnt even asking for peace though. Nobody in the world trusts him. you can't talk about peace while dismissing the other side as "fascist" or "racist", as he's currently doing. all he can do is put pressure on the indian government by drawing attention to "human rights violations" via the international media and diplomatic forums. its a very weak position to be in.

 

what he doesn't realize is that he's making it easier for the BJP to simply turn all dissidents into pakistan-sympathizers or "traitors". let's be honest - india's secularists seem to be making many of the same, Imran khan-esque arguments to undermine the BJP.

 

this is despite the fact that the BJP's policies, poorly communicated as they may be, are actually aimed at resolving long-standing issues. the indian public, even if they are skeptical of the BJP, will know that they are acting in the national interest. good for india, because we'll get a stronger government.

 

in the long term, india should try to covertly influence pakistani politics, and try to weaken the army from within the country. and they need to have a stronger presence in afghanistan. where it has been sidelined thus far. that's the 'next phase'. otherwise, any gains from isolating pakistan will be lost. cash in while you still can.

 

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

you can't talk about peace while dismissing the other side as "fascist" or "racist"

these are the emotional rants of a butt-hurt delusional. His fantasies of becoming a great peace making leader were snatched away from him, and he's lashing out.  Plus, he needs to cater to his puppet-masters, who probably made an easy sell to him about how his "charisma" can be used to push the interests of his 'nation'.  

 

7 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

n the long term, india should try to covertly influence pakistani politics, and try to weaken the army from within the country. and they need to have a stronger presence in afghanistan. where it has been sidelined thus far. that's the 'next phase'. otherwise, any gains from isolating pakistan will be lost. cash in while you still can.

No. I used to believe that - that India can work to strengthening "civilians" and democrats in Pakistan that can be made peace with.  Pakistani society and establishment isn't at that stage where they can be expected to make genuine lasting peace with India.  If we try this now, or in the next couple of years, those folks will be under tremendous pressure from not just their thieving army, but also their public - not to "sell out".  

 

Its counter-intuitive - and depressing for peaceniks like me - but it is India's best interest to keep up hostility against Pakistan until there is genuine, deep-rooted desire for peace with India in Pakistani society, and its establishment.  This will take another generation or so.  PakMil knows that this is the biggest threat to its on-going loot of their "Qaum".  that's why they are so desperate to control the media in their country, and flood social media with propaganda.  They need to make sure that the default and broad position in their people is anti-India.  The moment that hatred recedes, their jig is up.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

16 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

No. I used to believe that - that India can work to strengthening "civilians" and democrats in Pakistan that can be made peace with.  Pakistani society and establishment isn't at that stage where they can be expected to make genuine lasting peace with India.  If we try this now, or in the next couple of years, those folks will be under tremendous pressure from not just their thieving army, but also their public - not to "sell out".  

 

Its counter-intuitive - and depressing for peaceniks like me - but it is India's best interest to keep up hostility against Pakistan until there is genuine, deep-rooted desire for peace with India in Pakistani society, and its establishment.  This will take another generation or so.  PakMil knows that this is the biggest threat to its on-going loot of their "Qaum".  that's why they are so desperate to control the media in their country, and flood social media with propaganda.  They need to make sure that the default and broad position in their people is anti-India.  The moment that hatred recedes, their jig is up.

 

I disagree. You cannot bomb a country forever, its not a sustainable strategy for creating conditions for peace. at some point, indian government has to do something different. i don't think the average pakistani hates india anyway, so there's a limit to the propaganda. overt hostility and the occasional bombing of pakistan will only create greater sympathy for the pakistani army. you risk alienating ordinary pakistanis.

 

there's only one long term solution - india has to create opposition to the army from within pakistan's borders. how they go about doing this, i have no idea. pakistani society has enough 'diversity' to allow for political interference, but the army is a tough nut to crack. they aren't bound by morals, or institutions safeguarding civil society....they are more nimble, flexible and can retain power very easily. making pakistanis feel 'insecure', and largely distrustful of their army, is challenging.

 

if the soft approach doesn't work, india could pump money into the balochi separatist movement, maybe some find mercenaries within afghanistan. maybe work something out with china? they have a stake in the region, and a weaker pakistani leadership is in their interest as much as ours. the point is, something has to change. this cannot continue as a conventional war, it has to become more a covert, civil war.

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

ou cannot bomb a country forever, its not a sustainable strategy for creating conditions for peace. at some point, indian government has to do something different. i don't think the average pakistani hates india anyway, so there's a limit to the propaganda. overt hostility and the occasional bombing of pakistan will only create greater sympathy for the pakistani army. you risk alienating ordinary pakistanis.

 

who's talking about 'bombing'? Sustained hostility doesn't mean overt war.  Or bombing.  

 

I agree that its important to cultivate a constituency in Pakistan that is pro-peace with India.  But I am asserting that the timing is wrong.  Let the greenbros dig themselves into deeper holes economically.  Let them sell off their prime agri resources to China, let them mess around with Afghans, let them continue to waste billions on their mafia army.  Once India becomes a 10 trillion economy, we can quickly ramp up the peace overtures to the 'common people', and more effectively.  

[Manny_Pacquiao]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

who's talking about 'bombing'? Sustained hostility doesn't mean overt war.  Or bombing.  

 

but that's the outcome we're looking at if the pakistani army escalates on the border. either through troops or its mercenaries (LeT, jaish, whoever). indian government has no option but to bomb the * out of them, and i'm sure they will.

 

this is the scenario that i'm referring to - the endless cycle of pakistan army-instigation and indian army-response - it suits the pakistani army, does it not?

 

over the long term, its not a good look. that's why its better to put resources into destabilizing the pakistani army from inside it's borders. better now than later.

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

but that's the outcome we're looking at if the pakistani army escalates on the border. either through troops or its mercenaries (LeT, jaish, whoever). indian government has no option but to bomb the * out of them, and i'm sure they will.

 

this is the scenario that i'm referring to - the endless cycle of pakistan army-instigation and indian army-response - it suits the pakistani army, does it not?

Ask yourself why there haven't been more Pulwamas aftr Balakote?  Even after India sliced the Gordian knot by lopping off Ladakh from J&K, and abrogating A370?  

 

You are assuming that Pakistan can afford to continue its old tactics of LeT etc, in the current geopolitical environment.  Especially given its disastrous economic situation, which gives significant leverage to the World Community, and specifically the US.  Its bargaining hand is set to get even weaker, once bulk of US forces exit the Af-Pak theater.  Which is soon.  Let the ignorant amongst the greenbros "celebrate" the deal with the Taliban.  Reality is that the Afghan mess is left to fester in Pakistan's lap.  US or others don't really care what happens in the rocks and deserts of Afghanistan.  As long as no global terror threat emanates from there.  It will be Pakistan's headache.  And if they dare allow it to become the world's headache, there will be hell to pay.  

 

Of course, this doesn't mean that Pak "non state actors" and their attacks against India are history.  But the chessboard has changed, a lot.  And ultimately the PakMil mafia is about survival and profitability.  India and the World Community need to get better at orienting their incentives.  And that process is underway.  

 

If another Pulwama, or worse a mainland India attack occurs, PakMil mafia now knows that India will respond with military action.  And that can escalate.  Now the burden of escalation is shared, its not just on the Indian heads.  They can't afford escalation - not economically - its costly to run extra air patrols, deploy brigades etc.  Not to mention, the international pressure on aid and loans will ratchet up too.   And they got lucky with Abhinandan's over-aggressive pursuit this time - there's no guarantee that such luck will repeat.  And if it doesn't, they risk losing credibility at home.  In a nutshell, its much, MUCH better for them to keep shouting, have Immy shout, rather than get into an actual confrontation.  It could easily get out of control and result in an existential crisis for them.  The probabilities are not in their favor.  And they know it.

[Autonomous]

@sandeep 

 

I think Najam Sethi will be the best PM for Pakistan. The guy is very intelligent and progressive however he lands up in trouble due to anti-establishment stuff. 

 

 

[LordPrabhzy]

23 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

@sandeep 

 

I think Najam Sethi will be the best PM for Pakistan. The guy is very intelligent and progressive however he lands up in trouble due to anti-establishment stuff. 

 

 

Najam Sethi actually recognises the upper hand India has and also the true extent of Pakistani history. I would welcome him as a prime minister if there was no Pak Mil involvement in the running of the country.

 

You might as well put a donkey on the chair.. same thing.

[Autonomous]

18 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said:

Najam Sethi actually recognises the upper hand India has and also the true extent of Pakistani history. I would welcome him as a prime minister if there was no Pak Mil involvement in the running of the country.

 

You might as well put a donkey on the chair.. same thing.

Najam Sethi is inspiration as an professional. Excellent analytical skills, spot-on administrative/management skills and excellent decision maker. 

 

Imran Khan is vice versa, guy is absolutely nuts and i think he knows it.