jalebi_bhai Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 @coffee_rules with your permission, could I add "some possible solutions" to the thread title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 Just now, jalebi_bhai said: @coffee_rules with your permission, could I add "some possible solutions" to the thread title? Sure, Please do the honors. jalebi_bhai 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jalebi_bhai Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 minute ago, sandeep said: Education. Time. Economic Progress for overall society. Scarcity strengthens prejudice, when you are comfortable and rich, its easier to be generous and openminded. What about industrialization? Education and time are definitely needed, though you can argue that our education system itself needs massive reformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 Switch to economic based affirmative action. We need jathis to preserve communities, culture and heritage. There are weavers, carvers, indigenous artists who are classified as OBCs and given reservations. Dalits in J&K till about 6 months ago could only have safai karamchari jobs for their children. So, such regressive executive policies need to be revamped. Political castesim is kind of defeated with 2019 elections. Isn't it? sandeep and jalebi_bhai 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechEng Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said: I think the common consensus is that caste is an Indian thing, not necessarily exclusive to Hindu religion. Two important questions need to be asked then: 1. How do we rid ourselves of caste based discrimination? Indian state itself practices caste based affirmative action so only God knows if this is even possible. No political party will touch this issue. 2. Do Indians really want to get rid of the caste system? As mentioned above, we have caste based reservation in India. There are a lot of backward class/caste people who have genuinely benefitted from it and experienced social mobility. However, without an existing caste system, you can't have caste based reservation. What's the solution here then? Social mobility through fake lower caste certificates. India doesn't have a caste issue but an integrity one. Clarke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someone Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 One solution is to remove the narrative on hierarchy by birth. That's a big difference between caste and jati. We had the latter as categories for people, it was not a fixed hierarchy system set by birth. And it's not a Hindu problem, Muslims also have it. But they ultimately rally around the Ummah. Thus, We as a nation needs to find our rallying point... coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jalebi_bhai Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 24 minutes ago, MechEng said: India doesn't have a caste issue but an integrity one. Do you mind elaborating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_B_ Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Urbanisation is the key.... This is where the rss shine. They started appointing many obc shakha heads in the 80s and 90s. Now they have moved onto the st and sc commumity. The dividend will be paid in the decade to come. Our current pm is the product of the policy.. coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechEng Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 55 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said: Do you mind elaborating? You know it well, honesty is not something natural to our part of world. Abolishing caste is like beating a dead dog, as long as our nation has integrity issues we can keep enjoying masala politics with no real solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Horse Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 3 hours ago, Stan AF said: TDH, I didn't say they were saints. I said they are doing it, just less pronounced. Agree to disagree. There was an elderly DMK person pushing 80+ who was doing some party work at Hosur. Stalin was impressed and it's a good thing he met him in person to appreciate him. But guess what he asked first..."Are you Gowda?" DMK and all parties are full of casteism. Their business runs because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubrickian Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Casteism is not eradicated in Indian cities, far from it. In India, vast majority of the marriages even in cities are still arranged marriages and they invariably happen between people belonging to same caste. Even though many people in India act as they dont like the idea of casteism, they do very little to eradicate their caste based identity. Stan AF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, kubrickian said: Casteism is not eradicated in Indian cities, far from it. In India, vast majority of the marriages even in cities are still arranged marriages and they invariably happen between people belonging to same caste. Even though many people in India act as they dont like the idea of casteism, they do very little to eradicate their caste based identity. Endogamy is not casteism, if they prefer to marry within their caste, they are not discriminating. Marriage is a personal thing. If they are forcing the bride and groom to marry with in the caste against their will, then it is bad. We are talking about discrimination like entry to temples, insulting people based on caste etc. As a vegetarian worshipping cows, why would I seek to marry somebody who wants to relish eating cows? Edited July 16, 2020 by coffee_rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubrickian Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Endogamy is not casteism, if they prefer to marry within their caste, they are not discriminating. Marriage is a personal thing. If they are forcing the bride and groom to marry with in the caste against their will, then it is bad. We are talking about discrimination like entry to temples, insulting people based on caste etc. As a vegetarian worshipping cows, why would I seek to marry somebody who wants to relish eating cows? You are just propagating the idea of caste by continuing to marry within caste. Why else would you want to marry within the caste, just to keep your caste based identity alive and along with it comes discrimination and idea of superiority of many "upper" castes alive. It has more to do with keeping status quo alive, the fact that many upper castes had enjoyed being the dominant group in society which they dont want to lose. You can give it many excuses but concept of caste in 21st century is a very backward and shameful practice that only Hindus feel proud to practice. The educated ones justify it with their own derived concepts but nobody is foolish enough to believe them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, kubrickian said: You are just propagating the idea of caste by continuing to marry within caste. Why else would you want to marry within the caste, just to keep your caste based identity alive and along with it comes discrimination and idea of superiority of many "upper" castes alive. It has more to do with keeping status quo alive, the fact that many upper castes had enjoyed being the dominant group in society which they dont want to lose. You can give it many excuses but concept of caste in 21st century is a very backward and shameful practice that only Hindus feel proud to practice. The educated ones justify it with their own derived concepts but nobody is foolish enough to believe them. Bhai living with somebody you don’t respect, just to prove you are a liberal is idiotic. There is no question of superiority over another If you have same culture, festivals, language , there is a chance of getting it to work. It is like marrying someone who you don’t think is attractive, but doing because otherwise it looks bad because there are so many unmarried ugly people in the world. Edited July 16, 2020 by coffee_rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 7 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Bhai living with somebody you don’t respect, just to prove you are a liberal is idiotic. There is no question of superiority over another If you have same culture, festivals, language , there is a chance of getting it to work. It is like marrying someone who you don’t think is attractive, but doing because otherwise it looks bad because there are so many unmarried ugly people in the world. Natural differences v man made differences. How much culture, festival, language varies from one caste to other? What it does - highly educated or successful people especially girls from lower castes struggle to find matches within their caste. They are forced to choose among a very small pool and end up making compromises. People from lower castes who have given up their culture and studied and became successful might be relativibily more flexible towards idea of marrying upper caste as they might be able to increase desirable pool then. However people from upper caste are less open to the idea because it's easy to find matches within caste and also maintain caste based identity. Practice of marrying within caste, within subcaste is a big roadblock in solving this issue. Liberal or not, people don't even see it as issue even with education. They feel that since untouchability is gone, they are not asking caste in city schools, IT jobs, so issue is solved and marrying within caste is good practice which can always be justified by idea of marrying within people with similar culture. Like I mentioned that marrying within caste is relativily easy option, however what it does that it also prevent those small set of people who might find proper match in other caste to look into other caste. When they can find one in their caste only, why will they go out. This maintains the difference in the name of finding people with same culture. You don't need to justify it just to prove that you're not liberal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 From a 2008 report - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2474466/table/t1-dem-45-0245/?report=objectonly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 @coffee_rules This is what I am pointing towards. College graduate pool in dalits 5 times smaller than other castes. Diference would be higher if you apply more filters - such as type of job along with graduation. 14.41 % males v 9.09 % female in other castes. 4.83 % males v 1.67 % females in Dalit. Anyway that number of and 61% in Dalits with primary eductiona and 36% in other castes is itself poor. This would be much better in 2020 now as data from 2000, but that's one are where government should focus on irrespective of caste. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2474466/ Stan AF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someone Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 9 hours ago, kubrickian said: Casteism is not eradicated in Indian cities, far from it. In India, vast majority of the marriages even in cities are still arranged marriages and they invariably happen between people belonging to same caste. Even though many people in India act as they dont like the idea of casteism, they do very little to eradicate their caste based identity. Arranged marriages will only work, when there are connections/links/insights about each-other families. Thus, families keep it within same community type yet different gotra. It's perfectly normal and sane way. That's unlike some communities who take it to the extreme by marrying their cousins. Thus, one solution is to stop the prevalence of arrange marriage. The children have to find their own, instead of the parents. That way alone will force people to look at others equally, wider connections and ultimately, reduce the fixed hierarchy system associated with caste. Trichromatic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, someone said: Arranged marriages will only work, when there are connections/links/insights about each-other families. Thus, families keep it within same community type yet different gotra. It's perfectly normal and sane way. That's unlike some communities who take it to the extreme by marrying their cousins. Thus, one solution is to stop the prevalence of arrange marriage. The children have to find their own, instead of the parents. That way alone will force people to look at others equally, wider connections and ultimately, reduce the fixed hierarchy system associated with caste. One of my junior was asking this question - why my family is still searching in caste? I explained same thing - arrange marriages is mostly networking and that means you can explore mostly within your community there. Online matrimonials where this is not a problem, family doesn't look within caste. Arrange marriage is a luxuxy which Indian kids have. They don't invest time in searching for a suitable partner themselves, don't go through trial and error phase and don't even need to learn about challenges. Simply concentrate on studies, get a job and parents will find a match for you. Yet they will crib about older generation "searching within caste". It's a luxury which should go away. Maybe not completely, but let kids go through struggle of finding the partner themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someone Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 23 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: One of my junior was asking this question - why my family is still searching in caste? I explained same thing - arrange marriages is mostly networking and that means you can explore mostly within your community there. Online matrimonials where this is not a problem, family doesn't look within caste. Arrange marriage is a luxuxy which Indian kids have. They don't invest time in searching for a suitable partner themselves, don't go through trial and error phase and don't even need to learn about challenges. Simply concentrate on studies, get a job and parents will find a match for you. Yet they will crib about older generation "searching within caste". It's a luxury which should go away. Maybe not completely, but let kids go through struggle of finding the partner themselves. Its not just India, but south Asia and Middle East. And its not a luxury, but about definition of family. For some cultures, its just age 1-18 being a family, afterwards you are on your own. Such idea will never be possible in our country. And online matrimonial have caste filters, and its still the same logic. People/families are different from surface and deeper inside. Makes all sense to go for families of same community who will have good number of mutual connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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