Can Pandya be better all rounder than Jadeja in tests?

[rkt.india]

24 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Pandya has a huge challenge in terms of his fitness as we have seen in recent past. He is injured and missed lots of months. Unless he improves his fitness to take workload of pace bowler cum batsman, he will continue to find it tough to secure a spot in test team.

 

Pandya is certainly not good enough to bat in test top 5. His bowling will suffer due to injuries as he will have to drop pace. If he doesn't drops pace his back may find the pace bowling unbearable yet again. So the upside is limited and may infact decline as far as test bowling is concerned.

 

 

Pandya has no fitness issues. It's idiotic to say Pandya is unfit. Pandya is one of the fittest in this team.

[Straight Drive]

1 minute ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Looks like he himself wants to focus on LOIs and thinks playing Test cricket will be a "challenge".

 

LINK

Won't be surprised. A pace bowling all rounder player facing frequent injuries and missing so many matches will have to be rational to secure his earnings and atleast be available for format which takes less toll on body like T20i and ODI. Sensible decission.

[zen]

15 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

First challenge is Fitness of Pandya poses a big challenge for him to survive in test format as pace bowling all rounder  he is still struggling to be available or match fit.

 

Second challenge is his skills as test match batsman and test match level bowler. He is not upto the mark.

 

 

 

 

 

I guess, he can transition into a batting all-rounder. As mentioned, he avgs 60+ in subcon, which is a good starting point. He has played useful knocks in SA and Eng as well. As a bowler, he would be 2nd-3rd-4th seamer depending on conditions. 

 

The test he played in India shows his importance as well as a batsman and bowler where spinners are expected to do a job - Link (looking good for a 100)

 

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Due to his injuries and lack of skills at test level, he has played just 11 test matches . His test debut was in July 2017. 11 tests in 3.5 years is far too less. Being a pace all rounder he will have less shelf life and he just cannot afford to miss so many matches.

I have already posted this:

 

 

Pandya

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Career averages

	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
overall	11	532	108	31.29	1	17	5/28	31.05	1	7	0	0.23

 

 

Jadeja

Records type all-round analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Start of match date less than or equal to 1 Jan 2015  Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages   Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff   unfiltered 2012-2020 49 1869 100* 35.26 1 213 7/48 24.62 9 36 0 10.63 Profile filtered 2012-2014 12 364 68 21.41 0 45 6/138 30.37 2 11 0 -8.96

 

 

When you are starting out, you may not get to play that many games. Even newcomers like Pant, Vihari, Shaw, etc. have been in and out due to a variety of reasons. 

 

 

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He needs to improve his fitness as well as test skills if he has to play enough matches to score 3000 test runs and take 300 test wickets.

The discussion here is more about Pandya's potential as an AR not injuries/fitness. 

 

There are various types of ARs. For e.g.  he can score 5000 runs and pick up 200 wkts (or such combination)....

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by zen

[Straight Drive]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

 

I guess, he can transition into a batting all-rounder. As mentioned, he avgs 60+ in subcon, which is a good starting point. He has played useful knocks in SA and Eng as well. As a bowler, he would be 2nd-3rd-4th seamer depending on conditions. 

 

The test he played in India shows his importance as well as a batsman and bowler where spinners are expected to do a job - Link

 

I have already posted this:

 

Pandya has performed better than Jadeja in their respective initial years: 

 

Pandya

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	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
overall	11	532	108	31.29	1	17	5/28	31.05	1	7	0	0.23

 

 

Jadeja

Records type all-round analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Start of match date less than or equal to 1 Jan 2015  Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages   Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff   unfiltered 2012-2020 49 1869 100* 35.26 1 213 7/48 24.62 9 36 0 10.63 Profile filtered 2012-2014 12 364 68 21.41 0 45 6/138 30.37 2 11 0 -8.96

 

 

Pandya has a better batting avg, similar bowling avg, and a better avg difference.

 

 

There are various types of ARs. For e.g.  he can score 5000 runs and pick up 200 wkts (or such combination)....

 

 

 

Let him play enough tests per year first to begin with. Unless he gets rid of injury issues he won't be playing enough. And the test career of a pace bowling all rounder is demanding as well as has a relatively short shelf life as compared to specialist batsmen.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Let him play enough tests per year first to begin with. Unless he gets rid of injury issues he won't be playing enough. And the test career of a pace bowling all rounder is demanding as well as has a relatively short shelf life as compared to specialist batsmen.

Note that Pandya potentially is as good as anyone being considered for #6-7 (as mentioned - avgs 60+ in subcon).  That he can bowl pace too, serving as a 2nd, 3rd or 4th seamer per team's requirement/combination, is a bonus 

 

 

[Straight Drive]

Just now, zen said:

Note that Pandya potentially is as good as anyone being considered for #6-7 (as mentioned - avgs 60+ in subcon).  That he can bowl pace too, serving as a 2nd, 3rd or 4th seamer per team's requirement/combination, is a bonus 

 

 

Imo he isn't suitable to bat at 6 for Indian test team. Our batting lineup is not that bad yet that someone averaging 31 bats at 6.

 

[Trichromatic]

47 minutes ago, zen said:

There is no need for him to bat in the top 5. He can bat at 6-7. In subcon, he averages 60+ .... And when he has got a relatively harder ball, he has been quite effective with the ball. 

 

In fact, on rank turners, India can even give its specialist pacers rest by having someone like Pandya open the bowling with a Yadav, who does well in India, and even play  3 spinners.  

 

 

 

Pandya can have 5000 runs and 200 wkts (or such combination) 

It will take him 120+ test to pick 200 wickets and score 5000 runs.

 

Do you see him playing 120+ tests?

[Straight Drive]

7 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

It will take him 120+ test to pick 200 wickets and score 5000 runs.

 

Do you see him playing 120+ tests

 

 

I don't see  him being selected for more than even 35 tests.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Straight Drive

[zen]

1 minute ago, Straight Drive said:

Imo he isn't suitable to bat at 6 for Indian test team. Our batting lineup is not that bad yet that someone averaging 31 bats at 6.

He has only played 1 test in India where he averages 71. In SL, he scored a 100 and has a high avg too. If he plays more in India/subcon, his avg will go up.

 

There are various types of cricketers. Garry Sobers has a poor average in his first few years. Ravi Shastri, whose career you would have followed, came in as a spinner to transition into someone who opened for India.  S Smith came in as someone who could bowl spin to become one of the best batsman in the world. 

Below is Kallis and Sakib’s #s:

 

Excl BD and Zim

 

After 11 tests

 

• Kallis - batting 24, bowling 34
• Sakib - batting 27, bowling 31

 

After 20 tests

• Kallis - batting 32, bowling 33
• Sakib - batting 32, bowling 33

(both are similar at 20 test mark) 

 

Here is Garry Sober’s in his first few years:

 

 

What is imp is to recognize potential. Pandya can turn out to be an important player for India. If he doesn’t, the experience would still help him in different formats. 
 

 

 

[Straight Drive]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

He has only played 1 test in India where he averages 71. In SL, he scored a 100 and has a high avg too. If he plays more in India/subcon, his avg will go up.

 

There are various types of cricketers. Garry Sobers has a poor average in his first few years. Ravi Shastri, whose career you would have followed, came in as a spinner to transition into someone who opened for India.  S Smith came in as someone who could bowl spin to become one of the best batsman in the world. 

Below is Kallis and Sakib’s #s:

 

Excl BD and Zim

 

After 11 tests

 

• Kallis - batting 24, bowling 34
• Sakib - batting 27, bowling 31

 

After 20 tests

• Kallis - batting 32, bowling 33
• Sakib - batting 32, bowling 33

(both are similar at 20 test mark) 

 

Here is Garry Sober’s in his first few years:

 

 

What is imp is to recognize potential. Pandya can turn out to be an important player for India. If he doesn’t, the experience would still help him in different formats. 
 

 

 

Sir, I have watched Sobers and I am sure Pandya is not even half of what Sobers was in tests. Neither he is nowhere near to the batting quality of Kallis.

[zen]

11 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

It will take him 120+ test to pick 200 wickets and score 5000 runs.

 

Do you see him playing 120+ tests?

If he plays 120 tests, he could have more than that  

 

[zen]

18 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Sir, I have watched Sobers and I am sure Pandya is not even half of what Sobers was in tests. Neither he is nowhere near to the batting quality of Kallis.

The point is that people did not write them off in the early part of their career. 
 

When Sobers started it would have been easy to say that he is no Miller. When Kallis/Sakib started, he is no Sobers, and so on. They have gone on to serve their teams well in their  respective capacity (Kallis is no Sakib and vice versa. Both of them are not Sobers, who is not a Miller.)

 

Give youngsters some space! 
 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by zen

[nevada]

No. In theory, he too could have good batting numbers if he played predominantly in the subcontinent like Jadeja. But that's only half of the equation. I doubt he can ever match Jaddu's numbers in bowling. 

[zen]

Pandya could eventually transition into a batsman who bowls too therefore he could aim for a career batting avg of 40+, while his bowling avg can be in the 30-35 range. 
 

These two are different type of players. If Jadeja improves with bat further, it would help Ind more. If he gets into a decline with the bat (Likely scenario as many do well around the age of 30 and can then go down), he could have to focus more on bowling. Then we may have threads like - is Jadeja an AR?
 

While for Pandya when he hits his peak,  we could be discussing - has he gone past xyz?Why wasn’t he given  more chances early on? 
 

Players who are attacking and different have to go through this in general. For e.g., people have written against  likes of Sehwag (a slogger, no technique) etc., too  

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by zen

[Ajju]

First let him available for other than IPL seasons. Wonder how he can suddenly fully fit for ipl time and off in other times.

[Khota]

Jadeja is the least appreciated player on this board for god knows what reasons.

 

Jadeja for his utility to the team batting + bowling + fieling + attitude >>>> Pandya.

 

This is not a knock on Pandya, I personally want everyone in Indian team to have his physique.

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

There is no basis for that. Pandya is not a better batsman than Jaddu at any level, be it FC or tests.

 

Difficult to say that he is technically superior either. Talent, technique, temperament, no factor to show that he could be better batsman than Jadeja.

in terms of ability he is a better batsman then jadeja specially against fast bowling. The jadeja ur seeing now is a matured one at international level ...pandya will to after a point. Pandya ability against pace n bounce is far better and they both can hit spin but pandya destroys spin much better. Even im willing to punt on this if he plays test at home his batting avg will shoot up big time 

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

If we have to pick an all rounder whom should we pick most of the time? Pandya or Jadeja?

 

Is Jadeja good enough to warrant a place over Pandya overseas also?

Jadeja is that good that he can play as a bowler alone at home , he is the MVP in indian conditions

Overseas - the question isnt who at this point, the question is pandya body ready ?? he himself recently said he might need to choose a format. 

 

Overseas call to pick all rounder shud be condition dependant  where shankar name shud be thrown as well. Jadeja plus point is he can play as bowler in team above both 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

its a wrong comparison - 

Jadeja plays at home without a doubt, can play even as a bowler alone 

Overseas the question shud do we need a seam bowling all rounder or extra batsman ? If we want to play jadeja as A/R do we have more batting in bottom 4 ?

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[zen]

54 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

its a wrong comparison - 

Jadeja plays at home without a doubt, can play even as a bowler alone 

Overseas the question shud do we need a seam bowling all rounder or extra batsman ? If we want to play jadeja as A/R do we have more batting in bottom 4 ?

 

Agree that it is a wrong comparison. That too comparing the period when one has played for so many years and other has just started out relatively speaking  

 

Harsha  and Wasim were in the commentary (during the Shastri-Waz period iirc). Afridi (or Razzaq or someone) played a good knock coming in at 7 or 8. Harsha started the thing about moving him up the order. Wasim was like he played that knock because he batted lower down, if he had batted higher, he may have not played such a knock. Harsha looked confused. Wasim smiled and did not bother to explain. 
 

It is easier to play knocks when the expectations are relatively low. Batting higher up is a responsibility. The condition of the ball can be different. Bowlers can be fresher.
 

If Jadeja moves up for e.g.,  there is no guarantee that he would perform under the pressure that a specialist batsman is subjected to (relatively speaking) where he is expected to be relatively consistent. Also batsman do well around his age, gaining from experience and learning from mistakes. In a few series, he could go on decline so as an AR, there could be more pressure on him to deliver. His bowling could be impacted. People may even question if he is an AR.

 

It is good to have players like Pandya in the pipeline. They can take up the responsibility to bat at 6-7. Players with an attacking nature can turn a game like Sehwag or Gilly.  If Ind  can get more multi talented players at 6-7-8-9 including WK AR, it only helps to build batting and bowling depth. We saw what Jamieson and Grandhomne did for NZ. What the Eng lower order does from time to time.  
 

Pandya and Jadeja are different type of players. Both can be played and as per the combination required.

Edited August 23, 2020 by zen