Transition of young indian fast bowlers; Troublesome

[nsareen]

As i’ve observed U19 teams of the past years, i wonder if the transition & progression of Indian young fast bowlers has a lot to be desired ??
 
State teams later U19 system does well to groom the young fast bowlers & they are doing really well in the last 1/2 a decade or so with the likes of aavesh Khaleel nagarkoti mavi tyagi sushant all have done wonderfully well in the U19 setup, however none of them had yet established in the Senior setup, not threatening batsmen in the A teams, i wonder why ??
 
If i compare with the likes of Shaheen shah, mustafazir, kumara from SL all asian countries have bowlers who come and start representing Senior teams and continue to grow strongly & become the leaders, that’s not the case unfortunately with the indian bowlers, i remember nagarkoti mavi porel did very well compared to shaheen, but he has been the more successful bowler in the international setup, of the lot & continues to become the leader of the senior team’s attack while indian bowlers are struggling to stay fit & if fit struggling to take wickets..
 
wonder if there needs to be a dedicated setup for grooming & transitioning fast bowlers & incentivising success.
 
 
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sandeep99]

Fast bowlers need to be picked early. BCCI with its inept policy of grinding players in domestic setup is ruining some some potentially great careers.

[nsareen]

Fast bowlers need to be picked early. BCCI with its inept policy of grinding players in domestic setup is ruining some some potentially great careers.

wonder why hasn’t this been noticed by the bog brains in the BCCI setup, if somebody looks back & tries to see a pattern of bowlers failing to succeed in the senior setup they would easily identify key points, but seems the will or the vision to have a pool of strong young fast bowlers is not as strong as it should be..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Serpico]

It is easy for pakistan/sri lanka/bangla pacers to break into international scene because their senior players are mediocre/fizzle out quickly. If Hasan ali didn't run out of steam so early, shaheen and Hasnain wouldn't have debuted already. Just because our young bowlers take a little longer to debut doesn't mean they are failures. let them polish their skills and improve their stamina in domestics

[Serpico]

28 minutes ago, Sandeep99 said:

Fast bowlers need to be picked early. BCCI with its inept policy of grinding players in domestic setup is ruining some some potentially great careers.

Young bowlers are not ruined because they have played too many domestics. What you are talking about are flashes in the pan.. if a youngster can't sustain his body for a couple of domestic seasons what can we expect from them in internationals? Its not like each player will come with a definite expiry date and we can dispose them as soon as the date is passed and get next batch. 

[nsareen]

Young bowlers are not ruined because they have played too many domestics. What you are talking about are flashes in the pan.. if a youngster can't sustain his body for a couple of domestic seasons what can we expect from them in internationals? Its not like each player will come with a definite expiry date and we can dispose them as soon as the date is passed and get next batch. 

there are two school of thoughts on when the young bowlers should be given the international exposure, my point however was the lack of wickets even in the domestic setup, only porel has made some impact of the listed bowlers, rest not so much, that’s the point which needs some focus, how do they build skills to take wickets across levels they play to be successful at international.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BacktoCricaddict]

23 minutes ago, Serpico said:

Young bowlers are not ruined because they have played too many domestics. What you are talking about are flashes in the pan.. if a youngster can't sustain his body for a couple of domestic seasons what can we expect from them in internationals? Its not like each player will come with a definite expiry date and we can dispose them as soon as the date is passed and get next batch. 

There should be a balance between seeing them perform consistently and giving them an opportunity when they are in great form.  And there is no one-size-fits-all rule for how many years of domestic performance you want to see.  That is specific to each bowler, and that is for the selectors to decide with clarity and honesty. 

 

One thing is for sure.  Saini and Siraj could both have been in international cricket 2 years ago.  Saini in LOIs, Siraj in Tests.   

[nevada]

1 hour ago, Sandeep99 said:

Fast bowlers need to be picked early. BCCI with its inept policy of grinding players in domestic setup is ruining some some potentially great careers.

They have been pulling this crap right from the days of Abey Kuruvilla. Some things never change. 

[express bowling]

I had written about this issue in the IPL section.

 

Repeating the relevant parts here  --------

 

 

 

 

1)  Bumrah and Shami are very very good quality fast bowlers. Bumrah is amazing in all 3 formats and Shami a top quality wicket taker in tests and ODIs.


But Shami debuted in 2013 at an official age of 22 and Bumrah debuted in 2016 at age 22 too.




2)  Since Bumrah's debut in January 2016, we have not given meaningful chances to a single promising fast bowler within age 23 or 24.


Kohli and Shastri prefer experienced pacers, even in JAMODIs.  They introduce pacers only via T20Is, which is the worst format for new pacers ... while ODI is the best format for youngsters to debut in.


Saini was ready for international cricket in January 2018. Bowling accurately at express pace. He was 25 then. But he made his ODI debut almost 2 years later, at age 27. And still waiting for his test debut. When will we play him in tests  ?  When he is 33 and bowling 7 kph slower  ?? Why was he not played in tests against Afghanistan,  Bangladesh or in NZ when Ishant was injured.


Siraj was running through sides in 4 day matches for our A team in 2018. But Shardul was preferred when a test spot opened up. And Siraj seems to have lost a bit of pace after sitting on the bench for 2+ years.  He was ready at age 24 but still waiting for a test debut at age 26 and a half. And he is not looking as good as he did in mid 2018. 





3)  I don't buy the logic that we can't play / don't need to play young fast bowlers because Bumrah, Shami and Ishant are doing well.


a)  The 3rd pacer's slot have opened up when Ishant has got injured repeatedly.

b)  We could have tried young fast bowlers in bilateral ODIs. Have done it rarely.

c)  We could have tried young fast bowlers by rotation in tests, against weak sides at home. 




4)  Let's study the progress of our promising young quick bowlers since Bumrah's debut in January 2016


Saini ... Genuine fast bowler who is accurate too.

Yet to debut in tests, played just 5 ODIs despite being almost 28 years old.


Siraj ... Sharp bowler who is a genuine wicket taker in 4 day matches.

Yet to debut in tests. 


Prasidh ... Tall, genuine fast bowler who gets steep bounce. 

Played just 9 FC matches in 5.5 years. Has been removed from our A team due to just 1 bad match.

 

 

Tyagi ... Tall, genuine fast bowler who can seam and swing the ball. Has a good yorker and flying bouncer.

 

Good to see him being taken as a practice bowler to Australia. Now, he needs to play as many FC and List A matches as possible.

 

 

Mavi ... Genuine fast bowler with big inswing and steep bounce.

2 injuries have hampered his progress. The only case where no one can be blamed.
 

Nagarkoti  ... Genuine fast bowler who is very skiddy.

Took almost 2 years to recover from injury while rehabilitating at the NCA. Some say his injury was managed badly.


Avesh ... Tall sharp pacer who bowled a very heavy ball.

Played for our A side very intermittently  despite good FC performances. Lost pace and bounce after that.


Khaleel  ... Tall, hit the deck, bouncy pacer who could be sharp.

His bowling action was tampered with and his bowling style changed from hit the deck to swing bowker, after he got chance to play for Team India. He isn't the same bowler since.






5) In most cases, Fast bowlers bowl quickly between age 23 and 31 or thereabouts. We need to use them at this stage. Debut them by 21 or 22, so that they have sufficient experience by age 25 ... And combine pace with experience for 6 to 7 years.
 

6)  Introduce young fast bowlers via bilateral ODIs and not T20s.

 

T20 is the worst format to assess young fast bowler as they do not get to bowl proper spells and are always under attack.

[putrevus]

Ishant was picked early what happened, it took decade for him to learn the art of picking wickets. He has played nearly 100 tests and he is yet to take 300 test wickets. RP, Sreesanth, Irfan , India is littered with fast bowlers ending their international careers by age of 23-24.These fast bowlers used to have career span of two-three years maximum and then got discarded.

 

 Under19 cricket is not a barometer to assess any fast bowler.I feel India is giving too much importance to under 19 cricket.Very low percentage of those cricketers will make it to senior team.

 

Saini or Siraj were not better bowlers in test cricket than big three so they had to wait.This nonsense they need to given test debuts against weaker teams is ridiculous. They are getting exposure in other forms.India plays enough cricket for these bowlers to get chances in some format. Why should senior player who toils hard against stronger team lose chances to pad their stats against weaker teams.

 

They need phase out Umesh Yadav from the bowlers list, I don't think he ever will be any good overseas.

 

Bowling odd deliveries at 140 plus does make any bowler fast bowler. I don't buy Siraj will succeed as an international bowler. Saini should replace Umesh in the pecking order. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by putrevus

[Serpico]

35 minutes ago, putrevus said:

This nonsense they need to given test debuts against weaker teams is ridiculous

its not ridiculous when you consider the fact that ishant is 32, shami is 30+ and bumrah was injured before SA series last year. Fast bowlers can get injured at any moment, you need to have a strong bench who are test ready when that happens. What was the need to play umesh in south africa and BD series when we know he won't be successful overseas? they could have debuted saini and siraj in that home season and give them chance to prove if they are test ready. Now we have to gamble and debut them in australia of all places

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Serpico said:

its not ridiculous when you consider the fact that ishant is 32, shami is 30+ and bumrah was injured before SA series last year. Fast bowlers can get injured at any moment, you need to have a strong bench who are test ready when that happens. What was the need to play umesh in south africa and BD series when we know he won't be successful overseas? they could have debuted saini and siraj in that home season and give them chance to prove if they are test ready. Now we have to gamble and debut them in australia of all places

Having strong bench does not mean , all those bowlers have to play test cricket. Saini and Siraj are the bench, Ishant is injured so one of these two might play in Australia.Playing odd test against Bangladesh in India will not prepare Saini or Siraj for Australia.

 

If these guys are good they will do well. Umesh Yadav is the only who should not have been picked even for NZ series, let alone play  in the series.

 

What happens if one of those guys take 10 wickets against Bangladesh . Who will you drop if all the main fast bowlers are fit and ready to play next series.If it is unfair for everyone.Fast bowlers are always injured, there is nothing called too many fast bowlers.All of them don't have to play test cricket to be part of the bench.

 

[prudent_kreeda]

Somehow if one sees the status of those U-19 pacers of last 2-4 years , the progress seem to be poor.   ( Am keeping out Saini & Siraj )

1. No one is really the leader of the attack of their states .

2. Many are not even making the final eleven .

3. Getting Injured frequently .

 

Even if they did not play Tests , One day internationals their talent should enable them to pick wickets in Domestic matches  and be in the top 5-6 wicket takers among pacers .. If they cannot take wickets in Domestic , how on earth do they pick up wickets in international  level ?

For me they are not yet ready - yet to have consistency to bowl wicket taking deliveries regularly. 

 

At the same time need to note : - 

1. States do not seem to be ready to invest in future players . Happy to follow horses for courses policy . 

2. Injury - In cases like Mavi , who was taking wickets ,Injury prevented him from playing most matches last year . 

3. Could be players playing under too many coaches at different level - state side , NCA coaches , IPL  etc. Each one may be pushing his way amd messing up the youngster .

  

Strongly believe , need to fast track their development under a really good pace bowling mentor for a longer period may be at NCA who imparts the finer points of test match wicket taking bowling and help in  acquiring those skills to be practiced going forward 

 

Has BCCI even given thought in this regard , If they can really take this seriously and list out reasons for poor progress , they can solve it as they have resources to hire the best 

to solve the problem areas . 

[express bowling]

On 11/13/2020 at 8:50 PM, putrevus said:

Ishant was picked early what happened, it took decade for him to learn the art of picking wickets. He has played nearly 100 tests and he is yet to take 300 test wickets. RP, Sreesanth, Irfan , India is littered with fast bowlers ending their international careers by age of 23-24.These fast bowlers used to have career span of two-three years maximum and then got discarded.

 

 

In the 2000s decade, Indian pace bowlers faced lots of problems. The primary one being poor training methods and fitness. They lost pace and could not sustain pace and intensity throughout the day.

 

Apart from Zaheer, no one had a decent career and even Zaheer lost pace and averaged 33 in test matches.

 

The situation has been very different from 2015 onwards when our fast bowlers are not losing pace, often increasing it and sustaining pace and intensity throughout the day. Training methods have improved a lot.

 

Just early debut won't help if the other aspects are poor. Currently, the other aspects are good.

 

 

Quote

 

Saini or Siraj were not better bowlers in test cricket than big three so they had to wait.This nonsense they need to given test debuts against weaker teams is ridiculous. Why should senior player who toils hard against stronger team lose chances to pad their stats against weaker teams.

 

 

What you are saying is factually incorrect.

 

In June 2018, against Afghanistan, Umesh and Ishant played. Umesh was never a part of the big 3 and Ishant became big only after the 2018 England tour. 

 

In October 2018, in the 2nd test vs WI, it was Umesh and Shardul playing. Yet Saini or Siraj did not debut. Shardul was preferred. 

 

In October 2019, against Bangladesh, it was again Umesh who got to play both the tests.

 

So, there were ample opportunities of playing Saini in tests without him replacing one of the big 3 pacers.

 

 

Quote

 Saini or Siraj are getting exposure in other forms.India plays enough cricket for these bowlers to get chances in some format.

 

 

No, they are not. 

 

Both are not T20 bowlers yet 

 

Saini has played just 5 ODIs and 0 tests.

 

Siraj has played 1 ODI, 0 tests, 

 

 

Quote

Bowling odd deliveries at 140 plus does make any bowler fast bowler. I don't buy Siraj will succeed as an international bowler. Saini should replace Umesh in the pecking order. 

 

 

Agree.

Edited November 15, 2020 by express bowling

[express bowling]

We have seen some good domestic cricket numbers from our young quick bowlers.



Prasidh


FC ... Bowling average 20.3 and SR 43 5 ... 34 Wickets from 9 FC matches.


List A ... Bowling average 23 3 and ER 5.1 ... 67 wickets from just 41 matches.


Why has he played just 9 FC matches in 5.5 years ?


Why is he not part of India A ?




Mavi 


FC ... Bowling average 21.6 and SR 42.7 ... 25 Wickets from just 6 FC matches.




Nagarkoti 


List A ... Bowling average 25.0 and ER 4.8 ... 11 wickets from 9 matches



Avesh

FC ... Bowling average 23.0 and SR 44.8 ... 100 Wickets from just 26 FC matches.

 

But he has lost pace this year and needs to get it back before being considered.

[express bowling]

On 11/13/2020 at 11:24 PM, prudent_kreeda said:

Somehow if one sees the status of those U-19 pacers of last 2-4 years , the progress seem to be poor.   ( Am keeping out Saini & Siraj )

1. No one is really the leader of the attack of their states .

2. Many are not even making the final eleven .

3. Getting Injured frequently .

 

Even if they did not play Tests , One day internationals their talent should enable them to pick wickets in Domestic matches  and be in the top 5-6 wicket takers among pacers .. If they cannot take wickets in Domestic , how on earth do they pick up wickets in international  level ?

For me they are not yet ready - yet to have consistency to bowl wicket taking deliveries regularly. 

 

At the same time need to note : - 

1. States do not seem to be ready to invest in future players . Happy to follow horses for courses policy . 

2. Injury - In cases like Mavi , who was taking wickets ,Injury prevented him from playing most matches last year . 

3. Could be players playing under too many coaches at different level - state side , NCA coaches , IPL  etc. Each one may be pushing his way amd messing up the youngster .

  

Strongly believe , need to fast track their development under a really good pace bowling mentor for a longer period may be at NCA who imparts the finer points of test match wicket taking bowling and help in  acquiring those skills to be practiced going forward 

 

Has BCCI even given thought in this regard , If they can really take this seriously and list out reasons for poor progress , they can solve it as they have resources to hire the best 

to solve the problem areas . 

 

 

 

BCCI need to identify the younger fast bowlers who have the potential to be all condition pacers.

 

IMHO they are ----

Tyagi

Saini

Prasidh

Mavi

 

And these pacers have to be given priority and developed. They must get to play as many FC and List A matches as possible and get fast tracked to India A if they are performing at state level. And be chosen as practice pacers for Team India where they can understand how Bumrah and Shami prepare themselves for international cricket. ( Saini is obviously ready to play tests and ODIs and Prasidh can play ODIs now. )

 

And they have to be guided by a coach who will be in charge of young quicks who are Team India prospects. 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by express bowling

[jf1gp_1]

18 hours ago, nsareen said:

If i compare with the likes of Shaheen shah, mustafazir, kumara from SL all asian countries have bowlers who come and start representing Senior teams and continue to grow strongly & become the leaders

They are leaders by necessity and not choice

[Suhaan]

There is no particular way/method to introduce pacers in international cricket

sometimes when pacers are introduced young they have done well, while sometimes they have been dealt brutally

Cricket has become more and more batsmen dominated ,kids getting manhandled may effect their confidence but doesn't mean you hand them debut at 29-30 when there is  huge chance of loosing  pace while sweating it out in domestics ,overplaying them in domestics sucks life out of promising pacers

Solution is you rotate your pool of pacers in home matches this eases out burden from your first choice pacers

I would have liked BCCI makes a list of top 2-3 pacers(not more than 26) from each Elite group and the ones who qualify from plate group,that way we can track progress of these pacers

Edited November 14, 2020 by Suhaan

[Suhaan]

We need a good fast bowling coach for our national side asap

Maybe Jason Gillespie,Ryan Harris

[speedheat]

My biggest concern is loi cricket, test bowling attack is quite resolved and both Saini and Siraj seems ready in that format however its the lois which is a concern even saini isn't reliable in lois especially in slog overs Bumrah still remains our golden goose

 

Speaking about young fast bowlers absolutely no doubt about their potential but none of those guys looks ready yet, they are either wayward or need brains which was quite evident in recently concluded Ipl, nearly all of them got decimated.

They should polish their skills in domestics first