Do we have our Fab 4 Back

[Soldier]

5 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Gill and Shaw will be 23-24. ATGs so early in their career? That's hyperbole

What Gill did in Australia is unprecedented. I am damn sure he will butcher teams at home as well over the next 2 years of home cycle. Watch Shaw come back to form too. 

 

But yes post 2023 they will be our ATGs. Not in 2023. Sorry. My bad. 

[Majestic]

6 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

The last 4 knocks in your list are AFTER VVS had been playing Tests for 7-8 years (75+ tests).

 

That leaves us with 3 knocks you quoted. 281 is incomparable, the ATG knock #1 batting performance

148 at Adelaide vs 114 at Melbourne

169 at Sydney vs 103 at Lord's

I'll add the 147 at MCG in 2014 and 108 in NZ

 

Except for the 281, almost matching knock for knock , till the first half of VVS' career. For the sake of Indian cricket, hope Rahane can have the same resurgence to his last 4-5 years of Test career as VVS. More than the batting, his leadership is what we need else the gains of Australia series win will be frittered away easily.

Having watched both, I can say that Rahane is more at Ganguly level as test bat, FGS he averages in the range of 42-43 which is also the range of Ganguly. VVS was better than his stats, he still averaged 46 in tests.

 

I would say, VVS is at same level to Pujara and Rahane is at Ganguly level.

 

Sehwag is a rich man's Rohit and Tendulkar over his entire career was better than Kohli but SRT of 2000s was slightly behind Kohli of 2010s.

[Majestic]

6 hours ago, Soldier said:

Shami is way better than Zaheer. No doubt. 

 

Shami is an ATG is Asia 

Shami has 5 5-fers in 51 tests at average of 27.

 

ZaK had 7 between 2007-11 at average of 27 and 11 in total. If Zak would have bowled in current era, he would have a career average of 26-27 with around 350 wickets to his name as Indian pace bowling setup has improved by a mile in last 5 years.

 

Between 2007-11, he mostly bowled on flat wickets and gave such brilliant results.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Majestic

[Khota]

Dont need fab 4. Have fab 11 anyway.

 

fab 4 term came from roundball where only 5 play at a time. Cricket needs all 11.

[sourab10forever]

we don't need a fab 4 if we a pretty good 11 plus 7

[ShoonyaSifar]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

Having watched both, I can say that Rahane is more at Ganguly level as test bat, FGS he averages in the range of 42-43 which is also the range of Ganguly. VVS was better than his stats, he still averaged 46 in tests.

 

I would say, VVS is at same level to Pujara and Rahane is at Ganguly level.

 

Sehwag is a rich man's Rohit and Tendulkar over his entire career was better than Kohli but SRT of 2000s was slightly behind Kohli of 2010s.

LOL what? You keep repeating that but the data shows otherwise.

 

VVS ended with a career average of 46, at a similar stage of his career to where Rahane is , he was not very different, the 282 knock giving him an edge.

[Majestic]

5 hours ago, Soldier said:

India's future lineup post 2023 will be interesting. Kohli Is 31. I see him play till 36. 

 

Post 2023 would be ;

 

Jaiswal

Mayank/kohli/shaw

Vihari

Gill

Pant

Shaw

Jaddu (still stuper fit so should be fine)

Sundar or Thakur or pandya depending on conditions. 

Bumrah

Siraj

Porel/prasidh kirshna

 

 

Looks bloody good. Kohli has to suck it up and play second fiddle when he is older. So either open and Protect Gill from new ball or be replaced by Mayank or Shaw. I still believe in Shaw. He is phenomenal talent. Once he works out a few deficiencies, he will be a world beater. 

 

 

It will be:-

 

Paddikal

Shaw

Gill

Kohli

KL

Pant(wkt)

Pandya( Sundar as backup)

Saini ( or Shivam Mavi/Tyagi)

Kuldeep/Bishnoi

Siraj

Bumrah

 

[Majestic]

5 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

LOL what? You keep repeating that but the data shows otherwise.

 

VVS ended with a career average of 46, at a similar stage of his career to where Rahane is , he was not very different, the 282 knock giving him an edge.

You really think Rahane will go on and score 4000 runs more by end of his career to match VVS?? What was their age at that time?

 

VVS was miles better than his stats, it seems you haven't watched him play during your childhood. Rahane is clearly not at that level and is visible by their stats too( 42 vs 46) although the difference is even bigger in reality.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Majestic

[Majestic]

8 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

LOL what? You keep repeating that but the data shows otherwise.

 

VVS ended with a career average of 46, at a similar stage of his career to where Rahane is , he was not very different, the 282 knock giving him an edge.

Another point is that VVS always stepped up when his team was under crisis, he literally scored no soft runs in his career, no feasting on Zimbabwe and Bangladesh while Rahane has basically inflated his stats by Windies and BD bashing or else his SENA stats are nothing to write about. At home, he has been a soft runs bully unlike Laxman who played many great knocks in Asia like 281, Mohali, that SL chase etc etc...

[Soldier]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

Shami has 5 5-fers in 51 tests at average of 27.

 

ZaK had 7 between 2007-11 at average of 27 and 11 in total. If Zak would have bowled in current era, he would have a career average of 26-27 with around 350 wickets to his name as Indian pace bowling setup has improved by a mile in last 5 years.

 

Between 2007-11, he mostly bowled on flat wickets and gave such brilliant results.

Shami is more destructive in Asia and Australia plus south Africa. I would only pick Zack over Shami in English and new Zealand conditons. So overall for me Shami is much superior. 

 

I do agree Zack would have been a 26 27 averaging bowler with current Indian setup.

 

[Soldier]

15 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Another point is that VVS always stepped up when his team was under crisis, he literally scored no soft runs in his career, no feasting on Zimbabwe and Bangladesh while Rahane has basically inflated his stats by Windies and BD bashing or else his SENA stats are nothing to write about. At home, he has been a soft runs bully unlike Laxman who played many great knocks in Asia like 281, Mohali, that SL chase etc etc...

Yea Laxman was more clutch and better.

 

Pitches being flatter helped him in those times though. Still averaged 40 plus in Sena overall even in swing conditions. 

 

Laxman until 2010 averaged almost 50. Only the last 2 years post 2010 his average went down. He is an ATG. 

[Stan AF]

On 1/31/2021 at 7:07 PM, Trichromatic said:

 

Then how come we didn't win all the time at home in 2000s?

 

We won out only 11 out 17 test series in 2000s. Drawn 4 series, lost 2.

 

Played 47 matches and won only 21 - less than 50%. Lost 8 matches.

 

Since 2013, India has won 28 out of 34 matches, lost 1 and drawn 5 games. By the time India plays 47 games. 

Played 12 series and won 12. The era of batsmen from 2000-2010 didn't have the bowlers like these two who have 400 wickets between them between Nov 2011-Nov 2019

 

 

Because it is not the present era batsmen who are winning matches for india at india in the last decade but it is our bowlers. Mainly Ravi Ash and Jadeja. These two bowlers have taken 400+ wickets in a span of 8 years from Nov 2011-Nov 2019. These two are the main architects of Indian wins at home.

 

Ashwin has taken 254 wickets at 22.80 in India from Nov 2011-Nov 2019. 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/26421.html?class=1;home_or_away=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=match

 

Jadeja has taken 157 wickets at 21.06 from Dec 2012-Nov 2019

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/234675.html?class=1;home_or_away=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=match

 

A total of a mindboggling 400+ wickets at 20+ avg in a span of 7-8 years is the reason why we're so dominant at home. These two bowlers have a total of 28 5 fers and 7 10-fers at home. This does not include the trio of fast bowlers Umesh+Shami and Ishanth who have been doing very good as well at home. I need to check their numbers but I'm pretty sure their stats would be very good as well.

 

The batsmen from 2000-2010 didn't have this level of bowling to backup their batting at home and most often had to bat us out of trouble most of the times.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Stan AF

[Majestic]

16 minutes ago, Soldier said:

Yea Laxman was more clutch and better.

 

Pitches being flatter helped him in those times though. Still averaged 40 plus in Sena overall even in swing conditions. 

 

Laxman until 2010 averaged almost 50. Only the last 2 years post 2010 his average went down. He is an ATG. 

He has played some great knocks in tough batting conditions too. His problem was just that he was not prolific enough to score plenty of ton. But he thrived when coming to bat under pressure situation and his chances of performing got better in those situations.

[Soldier]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

He has played some great knocks in tough batting conditions too. His problem was just that he was not prolific enough to score plenty of ton. But he thrived when coming to bat under pressure situation and his chances of performing got better in those situations.

Honestly one century aside, does Rahane even warrant his spot as batsman right now? What has he done? He is a phenomenal leader and caption but as a Batsman I am not impressed. Could even play Shaw in his place in the near future or someone like Rahul

 

 

Ok he helped us win one crucial test. But honestly one test isn't enough. He was poor in the last 2 test albeit he was going for shots in the last test like an odi game. 

 

He is still weak vs spin. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Soldier

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Soldier said:

Honestly one century aside, does Rahane even warrant his spot as batsman right now? What has he done? He is a phenomenal leader and caption but as a Batsman I am not impressed. Could even play Shaw in his place in the near future or someone like Rahul

 

 

Ok he helped us win one crucial test. But honestly one test isn't enough. He was poor in the last 2 test albeit he was going for shots in the last test like an odi game. 

 

He is still weak vs spin. 

Yeah, that's the point. Rahane with 42 test average as specialist batsman doesn't merit playing 70 tests. We have a number of players waiting.

 

He won us a test series in Australia as captain so I will cut the slack now and accept him even with 42 average. But as batsman, he is clearly not at level of Laxman.

 

Indian team has been brilliant in last 20 years and as per our benchmark, specialist batsmen should be doing better than that.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Majestic

[Trichromatic]

4 hours ago, Soldier said:

Shami is more destructive in Asia and Australia plus south Africa. I would only pick Zack over Shami in English and new Zealand conditons. So overall for me Shami is much superior. 

 

I do agree Zack would have been a 26 27 averaging bowler with current Indian setup.

 

 

 

Zak was mediocre most of career. Putting him in current bowling line up wouldn't matter much. 

[Soldier]

31 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

 

Zak was mediocre most of career. Putting him in current bowling line up wouldn't matter much. 

I know but I was being nice and din't want to respect Zak as he did win us a chance world cup and gave us some good away wins. 

[Majestic]

I will put Zak in same tier as Boult, Johnson and Vaas. He was the leader of the attack and won India many games between 2007-11. In my all-time India XI, Kapil, Bumrah and Zak will be the pace trio.

 

All three leaders of pace attack and brings their own strengths.

[Trichromatic]

49 minutes ago, Majestic said:

I will put Zak in same tier as Boult, Johnson and Vaas. He was the leader of the attack and won India many games between 2007-11. In my all-time India XI, Kapil, Bumrah and Zak will be the pace trio.

 

All three leaders of pace attack and brings their own strengths.

 

Which format are you talking about? 

 

Shami and Ishant are better test bowlers than Zak. 

[Soldier]

17 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Which format are you talking about? 

 

Shami and Ishant are better test bowlers than Zak. 

Add Siraj, Tyagi and porel in the future. Mark my words.