Ponting's golden period performance betters Steve Smith's - Smith's steep downfall now is also very likely

[Gollum]

45 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

My first instinct is to say Ponting at his peak was better than Steve Smith. Now that I think about it, at Ponting’s peak, what would international test prominent bowling lineups have looked like :

 

South Africa 

Pollock 

Nel 

ntini 

Kallis 

 

India 

Nehra 

Agarkar 

Zaheer 

bhaji 

Kumble 

 

England 

Harmison 

Flintoff 

Giles

 

Pakistan 

Sami 

Akhtar 

Navid ul Hasan 

Kaneria 

 

Now compare to Smith 

 

England 
 

Anderson 

Broad 

Stokes 

Woakes 

 

South Africa 

Philander 

Rabada 

Maharaj 

 

India 

Bhuvi 

Varun 

Shami 

Yadav 

Ashwin 

Jadeja 

 

Also since 2016 wickets have been quite bowler friendly. Please add to/ammend above attacks as it’s off top of my head but can’t see much of a difference between the eras, esp when second half of Steve smith’s peak had bowler friendly wicket although concussion substitute goes against him 

And Kiwis with their strongest ever attack/team.

 

WI too far better bowling unit compared to 2000s.

 

BD with their best attack especially at home. Who can forget how they troubled RSA, Eng, Aus in 2015-16?

 

The series Aus lost 0-3 in SL, he had to face peak Herath, Lakmal and a few other spinners on rank turners. Scored a 140 in one of the tests IIRC. 

 

Batting in this era hasn't been easy. Even for us, this Aussie bowling unit is head and shoulders above all the Aussie attacks we faced in 2003-04, 2007-08, 2011-12....only 1999-00 comparable and we saw how everyone except SRT (and VVS in final test) performed in that series. Same with RSA, Eng and NZ....I mean look at the Eng/NZ attacks we faced in 2007-10 and compare them to post-2015 ones!!!!!

 

Kohli and Smith are better than what their numbers indicate....in test cricket. ODIs different matter. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Gollum

[Gollum]

How would Ponting have done in 2017 India against Umesh, Ishant, Jaddu, Ashwin lol....max 150 runs in 4 tests like that HTB Warner. And definitely no multiple free 200s against us on Aussie decks, this Indian attack is high quality and relentless....peak Ponting would be made to grovel to score a single 100 at 45 SR. in the whole series. In Ponting's era we had 1-2 good bowlers (mostly just 1) who he could see off before pulverizing the others, and if that main bowler got injured (like Zak in 2003-04), party time.

 

No breathing space with this Indian attack, imagine playing 7 hours of Bumrah-Ash, Shami-Jaddu, Ishant-Bumrah, Shami-Bumrah......torture. And then guys like Siraj, Kuldeep, Nadeem (and 5 others good enough to play in our 2000s team first XI) warming the bench...how intimidating!!! If only we become a better catching team, the records this bowling attack will create, there is no historical parallel.

 

Lloyd's WI never had half-decent spinners (never mind greats like Ash and Jaddu), same with Smith's RSA (Paul Harris lol). ATG Aus had 2 ATGs in McGrath-Warne plus (excellent) Gillespie plus someone average and very poor depth...after their 2 stalwarts got injured they played nobodies like Brad Williams, Bracken, Katich (not known for his batting then) in that 2003-04 series...compare that with our depth, take out Bumrah/Ash and we will field Siraj, Ishant, Shami, Jaddu, Kuldeep. Ok take out one more, in comes Umesh....take out 5 frontline bowlers for home tests and we will field Siraj, Umesh, Kuldeep, Sundar, Nadeem/Axar which will still do the job in Chepauk and Ahmedabad. 

 

Won't touch the sensitive topic of Kohli, Fab 5......but Smith is leagues above Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn, Hussey, that entire lot. In most Aussies' minds he is already second best after Don (their holy figure) and even at his peak I doubt many Aussies rated Ponting above Greg Chappell and Border. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Gollum

[kohli]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

How would Ponting have done in 2017 India against Umesh, Ishant, Jaddu, Ashwin lol....max 150 runs in 4 tests like that HTB Warner. And definitely no multiple free 200s against us on Aussie decks, this Indian attack is high quality and relentless....peak Ponting would be made to grovel to score a single 100 at 45 SR. in the whole series. In Ponting's era we had 1-2 good bowlers (mostly just 1) who he could see off before pulverizing the others, and if that main bowler got injured (like Zak in 2003-04), party time.

 

No breathing space with this Indian attack, imagine playing 7 hours of Bumrah-Ash, Shami-Jaddu, Ishant-Bumrah, Shami-Bumrah......torture. And then guys like Siraj, Kuldeep, Nadeem (and 5 others good enough to play in our 2000s team first XI) warming the bench...how intimidating!!! If only we become a better catching team, the records this bowling attack will create, there is no historical parallel.

 

Lloyd's WI never had half-decent spinners (never mind greats like Ash and Jaddu), same with Smith's RSA (Paul Harris lol). ATG Aus had 2 ATGs in McGrath-Warne plus (excellent) Gillespie plus someone average and very poor depth...after their 2 stalwarts got injured they played nobodies like Brad Williams, Bracken, Katich (not known for his batting then) in that 2003-04 series...compare that with our depth, take out Bumrah/Ash and we will field Siraj, Ishant, Shami, Jaddu, Kuldeep. Ok take out one more, in comes Umesh....take out 5 frontline bowlers for home tests and we will field Siraj, Umesh, Kuldeep, Sundar, Nadeem/Axar which will still do the job in Chepauk and Ahmedabad. 

 

Won't touch the sensitive topic of Kohli, Fab 5......but Smith is leagues above Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn, Hussey, that entire lot. In most Aussies' minds he is already second best after Don (their holy figure) and even at his peak I doubt many Aussies rated Ponting above Greg Chappell and Border. 

Did smith played against bumrah shami ishant  ashwin & jadeja in same match. Smith also scored against poor indian bowler on flat pitch, his all centuries came in ashes 2019 against Anderson less English attack 

[Gollum]

10 minutes ago, kohli said:

Did smith played against bumrah shami ishant  ashwin & jadeja in same match. Smith also scored against poor indian bowler on flat pitch, his all centuries came in ashes 2019 against Anderson less English attack 

Yeah sure 2017 pitches were flat. Ashwin, Jaddu, Ishant, Umesh is ATG level attack on Indian pitches. Bumrah yet to play a test in India. 

 

Smith averages 130 something against Anderson, literally treats him like his bitch, unlucky for him that Andu missed out otherwise who knows 1000 runs in an Ashes wouldn't have been bad. Archer was the one who replaced Andu, concussed Smith and gave him max trouble. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

14 minutes ago, kohli said:

Did smith played against bumrah shami ishant  ashwin & jadeja in same match. Smith also scored against poor indian bowler on flat pitch, his all centuries came in ashes 2019 against Anderson less English attack 

Dont worry he has faced anderson in england and he still scored runs. 

He has faced ishant umesh ashwin jadeja in same match and scored 499 runs last time.  We also had jayant yadav so the 5th bowler wasnt weak either

[kohli]

4 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Dont worry he has faced anderson in england and he still scored runs. 

He has faced ishant umesh ashwin jadeja in same match and scored 499 runs last time.  We also had jayant yadav so the 5th bowler wasnt weak either

Let him play against bumrah,shami , ashwin & jadeja in same match. Ishant , umesh , ashwin & jadeja is good attack but not atg.

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 minutes ago, kohli said:

Let him play against bumrah,shami , ashwin & jadeja in same match. Ishant , umesh , ashwin & jadeja is good attack but not atg.

 

Ashwin jadeja are ATG in their home conditions, Umesh is also ATG in home conditons...he avgs better then kumble bhajji at home.....how are they not ATG at home

Ponting struggled to even make runs against bhajji alone whose avg at home is 28 and umesh, ashwin, jaddu under 25

 

[kohli]

8 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Ashwin jadeja are ATG in their home conditions, Umesh is also ATG in home conditons...he avgs better then kumble bhajji at home.....how are they not ATG at home

Ponting struggled to even make runs against bhajji alone whose avg at home is 28 and umesh, ashwin, jaddu under 25

 

Same ponting did excellent against murli in sl. In smith side u writing umesh is atg in home but they simply discard ponting run against ntini , akhtar & nel 

[rangeelaraja]

5 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Guys, why a 7 year peak? Why not a 18 year peak instead? 7 years at 62 or 18 years 59.xx? You choose.

 

 

 

This goes to show that even a few bad years of form / playing with injury can bring down a near 60 average for 18 years for 157 tests !

 

it happened to SRT and Ponting - it will happen to Smith as well, if it has already not started. For those touting him as a GOAT after WW2, he will end up with a career average less than 53. Not to say that’s not great, but many others would have done it  as well. 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

26 minutes ago, kohli said:

Same ponting did excellent against murli in sl. In smith side u writing umesh is atg in home but they simply discard ponting run against ntini , akhtar & nel 

I didnt discard ntini akthar but dnt say that smith hasnt played great attacks in their back yard. 

Yes umesh is an ATG in indian condition. 

Nel is not an ATG

[kohli]

4 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

I didnt discard ntini akthar but dnt say that smith hasnt played great attacks in their back yard. 

Yes umesh is an ATG in indian condition. 

Nel is not an ATG

Not you but other poster. Current smith is better than ponting but I want to see how smith will perform in future because once a time ponting avg was also near 60 after 100 test.

[express bowling]

4 hours ago, mancalledsting said:

My first instinct is to say Ponting at his peak was better than Steve Smith. Now that I think about it, at Ponting’s peak, what would international test prominent bowling lineups have looked like :

 

South Africa 

Pollock 

Nel 

ntini 

Kallis 

 

India 

Nehra 

Agarkar 

Zaheer 

bhaji 

Kumble 

 

England 

Harmison 

Flintoff 

Giles

 

Pakistan 

Sami 

Akhtar 

Navid ul Hasan 

Kaneria 

 

Now compare to Smith 

 

England 
 

Anderson 

Broad 

Stokes 

Woakes 

 

South Africa 

Philander 

Rabada 

Maharaj 

 

India 

Bhuvi 

Varun 

Shami 

Yadav 

Ashwin 

Jadeja 

 

Also since 2016 wickets have been quite bowler friendly. Please add to/ammend above attacks as it’s off top of my head but can’t see much of a difference between the eras, esp when second half of Steve smith’s peak had bowler friendly wicket although concussion substitute goes against him 

 

 

Assuming that Smith's peak period is still going on ... the Indian attack would have to include Bumrah and Ishant.

[Gollum]

I think Smith for a period of 6 years from 2013 Ashes till 2019 Ashes averaged close to 75 with 6k+ runs.

 

Anyway will be interesting to have a rating based on 1 year peak, 5 years peak, 10, 20, 25 etc.

 

I remember Frederic Friedel did it for chess some time back, adjusting ELO inflation and all that: 

 

Single event: Caruana in 2014 Sinquefield Cup, closest to these modern day chess engines running on supercomputers

1 year peak Fischer 

3 years peak Fischer/Kasparov/Carlsen 

5 years peak Carlsen/Kasparov

10 years peak Carlsen/Kasparov

15 years peak Kasparov (undisputed)

20 years peak Kasparov (undisputed)

25 years peak Karpov/Anand

30 years peak Anand/Lasker

35 years peak Lasker (though not active much)

Beyond that Korchnoi (beat Caruana when he was 80+ )

 

Would love to see a similar list for cricketers. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Gollum

[Suhaan]

Have no intentions to compare Smith with Ponting

But don't you guys think that Indian attack since 2015 is one of the most deadly all conditions attack the world has ever seen

If it is,then why current era looks average on bowling quality parameters?

[Adamant]

5 hours ago, Soldier said:

But one thing Kohli can never do is carry a team like Smith vs England in England. In swing conditions Kohli can't. In pacy bouncy and seam tracks he can. On spin tracks he could but not at the level of Smith. 

 

 

Kohli made 590 runs at an avg of 60 in 2018. Yes Smith is better but you are wrong if you say that Kohli can't carry a lineup in swinging conditions. 

He literally carried our lineup for the first three tests. 

[Adamant]

2 hours ago, sarchasm said:

Guys, why a 7 year peak? Why not a 18 year peak instead? 7 years at 62 or 18 years 59.xx? You choose.

 

 

 

I will choose 7 years at 62 because we will win more series in those 7 years away from home then we did in those 24 years. 

Remember Sachin never made 500+ runs in a series, Smith has done this umpteen times. 

[Adamant]

I have seen both Ponting and Smith from the start of the formers career. 

 

The difference between Ponting and Smith is not just stats (even though difference in stats is also huge). 

Ponting was never as dependable and  clutch as Smith is. 

Ponting's comparison in tests is Kohli. 

They are basically mirror images, i haven't seen more similarity in any other pair of batsman. 

Ponting scored all those runs in the last decade when great bowlers were mostly retired or were on their last legs, Mcgrath and Warne were there but obviously he didn't face them. 

 

I will rank the great TEST batsman in that era in this order:

1. Brian Lara

2.Sachin Tendulkar 

3.Ricky Ponting

4.Rahul Dravid

5.Jaques Kallis

 

I will pick Smith over Brian Lara without blinking an eye. 

 

If we include Smith, Kohli in the mix then

 

1.Smith

2.Lara

3.Sachin

4.Kohli

5.Ponting

6.Dravid

7.Kallis

[Soldier]

19 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Kohli made 590 runs at an avg of 60 in 2018. Yes Smith is better but you are wrong if you say that Kohli can't carry a lineup in swinging conditions. 

He literally carried our lineup for the first three tests. 

That's true. I truly believe Kohli at his best is better than Smith overall. 

 

If he just focuses less on t20, people will be shocked how good he can be. 

[Adamant]

6 minutes ago, Soldier said:

That's true. I truly believe Kohli at his best is better than Smith overall. 

 

If he just focuses less on t20, people will be shocked how good he can be. 

No i dont think Kohli can be better than Smith in test matches. 

Smith is a mentally ill man, did you read that interview where he said that he finds it hard to focus on any other thing than cricket. He shadow bats the entire time, in bathroom in dressing room everywhere. 

Smith will go down when his eye hand coordination breaks up due to age, but still we don't know when that will happen. 

Kohli is obviously a better all round batsman and that for me is a bigger challenge. Yes Kohli can become a better test bat if he focuses solely on tests. 

We have seen players like Rahul, Mayank destroy their test batting to score in ipl. King Kohli does it all without blinking an eye. That is his greatness 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Adamant

[Soldier]

6 minutes ago, Adamant said:

No i dont think Kohli can be better than Smith in test matches. 

Smith is a mentally ill man, did you read that interview where he said that he finds it hard to focus on any other thing than cricket. He shadow bats the entire time, in bathroom in dressing room everywhere. 

Smith will go down when his eye hand coordination breaks up due to age, but still we don't know when that will happen. 

Kohli is obviously a better all round batsman and that for me is a bigger challenge. Yes Kohli can become a better test bat if he focuses solely on tests. 

We have seen players like Rahul, Mayank destroy their test batting to score in ipl. King Kohli does it all without blinking an eye. That is his greatness 

Very true. exactly what I meant. I still reckon Kohli will end up with an average very similar to Smith when they retire. Not even a Kohli fan btw but he is indeed a legendary player. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Soldier