Wasim Rizvi criticised Quran, and then got beaten up in India. None supported him in India, including BJP. Indian Secularism incomplete

[Mariyam]

13 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Do we need a different thread title?

 

The thread title is misleading.

 

My understanding is that Waseem Rizvi hasn't been beaten up. That was an MLA in Punjab. 

 

Also, Waseem Rizvi hasn't criticized the holy Quran per se.  His claim is that 26 verses are later additions to the scripture and hence have to be removed.

All of this is a part of his petition to the SC.

 

 

[Mariyam]

@Alam_dar

 

I more or less agree with the gist of your last post.

 

However, there is something I don't agree with:

while Indian law has to become victim of double standards, where it has to close it's eyes from the cursing/abusing of religious books against Non-Muslims, but not vice-versa. 

 

How did you reach this conclusion?

 

 

[Vilander]

29 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

while Indian law has to become victim of double standards, where it has to close it's eyes from the cursing/abusing of religious books against Non-Muslims, but not vice-versa. 

cause usually non Muslims mostly take these things a little more chill like mf hussain nude durga etc and there wont be too much stabbing, beheading, bombing's  general villainy surrounding some random cartoon or something etc. this could be from there, so basically might be entirely based on just facts.

[Mariyam]

9 minutes ago, Vilander said:

cause usually non Muslims mostly take these things a little more chill like mf hussain nude durga etc and there wont be too much stabbing, beheading, bombing's  general villainy surrounding some random cartoon or something etc. this could be from there, so basically might be entirely based on just facts.

 

There were many lawsuits against MF Hussain on grounds of obscenity/hurting religious sentiments.  How does that indicate a double standard by the law?

[Mariyam]

Article 13 defines laws as: orders, by laws, rules and regulations, notifications, ordinances and laws in force. This definition doesn't cover religious scriptures. As far as Article 13 is concerned the Quran isn't a law. Can it even be subjected to a judicial review?

 

Not too sure about this.

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

@Alam_dar

 

I more or less agree with the gist of your last post.

 

However, there is something I don't agree with:

while Indian law has to become victim of double standards, where it has to close it's eyes from the cursing/abusing of religious books against Non-Muslims, but not vice-versa. 

 

How did you reach this conclusion?

 

ٰ I thought that it was clear ...  i.e. 

* Cursing/Abusing of Kuffar is present in Quran and Hadith and both Quran and Hadith Books are allowed to be published everywhere in India and people are allowed to read them without this cursing/abusing being challenged in the Courts. 

 

* But if any Non-Muslim writes anything against Islam, then it has to first undergo the scrutiny by the courts. 
And if court find them offensive against Islam, then these books are not allowed to be published. 

 

Therefore, JUSTICE and EQUALITY becomes a problem here, and Indian Courts are compelled to show the double Standards , i.e. they could not touch the religious  books, but only the Books by Non-Muslims undergo the process of scrutiny. 

 

For example:

 

(1) Book "Rangeela Rasool" is banned in India. 
The publisher of this Book was a Hindu, and he was killed by a Muslim named Ghazi Ilm Deen. 

Now this book "Rangeela Rasool" consists of  Islamic Traditions (Ahadith) of how Muhammad used the Drama of Revelation in order to marry 17 wives and he also had 21 Slave Women for sex. 

Muslim argument was this that this book was written with ill intention, and in order to humiliate the Prophet and Islam, and it was enough for the Indian courts to ban the book in India. 

 

(2) Book "Satanic Verses" is also banned in India. 

Again there is no cursing/abusing of Islam present in this book, but Rushdie only made a fictional story based upon the real story that is present in Quran and Ahadith. 

In my opinion, if someone even uses the real incident of Satanic Verses, and want to humiliate Islam, still it should be totally allowed. While Rushdie didn't even mention the real incident, but still the book was banned in name of having ill-intentions. 

 

Indian Society is in state of Fear if they try to criticize Islam and Prophet Muhammad. 

 

[Alam_dar]

24 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

Article 13 defines laws as: orders, by laws, rules and regulations, notifications, ordinances and laws in force. This definition doesn't cover religious scriptures. As far as Article 13 is concerned the Quran isn't a law. Can it even be subjected to a judicial review?

 

Not too sure about this.

 

I am not interested in present laws.

I am only interested in achieving EQUALITY. 

The so called books of Allah/Religion should have equal status as the Books by any Human Being (citizen). 

Even if any present law is against this rule of equality, then it should be changed. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Alam_dar

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

 

There were many lawsuits against MF Hussain on grounds of obscenity/hurting religious sentiments.  How does that indicate a double standard by the law?

What came out of the law suits ? Nothing much i guess. What would come out of a law suit from say a Muslim board nothing much i guess as well but then there would be umma who can take things on to their hands directly.. 

[Vilander]

36 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

For example:

 

(1) Book "Rangeela Rasool" is banned in India. 
The publisher of this Book was a Hindu, and he was killed by a Muslim named Ghazi Ilm Deen. 

Now this book "Rangeela Rasool" consists of  Islamic Traditions (Ahadith) of how Muhammad used the Drama of Revelation in order to marry 17 wives and he also had 21 Slave Women for sex. 

Muslim argument was this that this book was written with ill intention, and in order to humiliate the Prophet and Islam, and it was enough for the Indian courts to ban the book in India. 

 

(2) Book "Satanic Verses" is also banned in India. 

Again there is no cursing/abusing of Islam present in this book, but Rushdie only made a fictional story based upon the real story that is present in Quran and Ahadith. 

In my opinion, if someone even uses the real incident of Satanic Verses, and want to humiliate Islam, still it should be totally allowed. While Rushdie didn't even mention the real incident, but still the book was banned in name of having ill-intentions. 

 

 

There is always periodic context, its not always possible to extrapolate a person who lived in ancient time to current time.  When masses of people hold an entity as a diety it does not make sense to disrespect them. Lol why would someone do that ? Why hurt people that much but people taking law in their hands is wrong as well and that too unprecedented in the first case.  Reform has to come from within its a struggle that every society goes through. 

[Khota]

All I can say is that no religionis above honest criticism.

 

Heck on a given day I am  agnostic. Can anyone prove to me that God exists.. Anyone.

[mishra]

3 hours ago, Mariyam said:

 

The thread title is misleading.

 

My understanding is that Waseem Rizvi hasn't been beaten up. That was an MLA in Punjab. 

 

Also, Waseem Rizvi hasn't criticized the holy Quran per se.  His claim is that 26 verses are later additions to the scripture and hence have to be removed.

All of this is a part of his petition to the SC.

 

 

As per thread title to peoples, who has no clue about India, India is turning into a place like Pakistan and is dangerous place if you are considered blasphemous by libdus.

 

Alam_dar is top grade propagandist.

Edited March 29, 2021 by mishra

[Mariyam]

54 minutes ago, Vilander said:

What came out of the law suits ? Nothing much i guess. What would come out of a law suit from say a Muslim board nothing much i guess as well but then there would be umma who can take things on to their hands directly.. 

And they would be criminals then!!

The debate is not who is more butthurt over offences, real or perceived. We all know which community wins gold in that event in India. Others are catching up,but have a lot of ground to cover.

 

The debate is Indian law has double standards when it comes to criticism of religion!

[Vilander]

13 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

We all know which community wins gold in that event in India. Others are catching up,but have a lot of ground to cover.

 

The debate is Indian law has double standards when it comes to criticism of religion!

Does the 'we' include all for instance Darul Uloom deoband ? One wonders what they teach..me thinks they don't care. 

[Vilander]

42 minutes ago, mishra said:

As per thread title to peoples, who has no clue about India, India is turning into a place like Pakistan and is dangerous place if you are considered blasphemous by libdus.

 

Alam_dar is top grade propagandist.

Yup if shallow is top grade .. he would have us fighting like dogs all in the name of liberal views. 

[Mariyam]

@Alam_dar I am unable to multi quote. This is a reply to both your posts.

 

There are tons of books/movies that have been banned in India that have offended people of faiths other than Islam. A simple google search will make that amply clear to you. You are just citing examples of books banned due to pressure by the Islamists to show some kind of a double standard in the law where none exists.

 

There are also a good number of books that have faced the ire of the Islamists and yet not been banned: Negationism in India, is one that I remember. Though it wasn't critical of Islam as a religion, but talks about the destructive impact of Islamic on Indian society and polity.

 

There are many papers published on comparative religions which are critical of Islam and are a part of the curriculum in certain Universities. These include include essays by Dr Ambedkar too.

 

Re: The cursing against the kuffar in the Quran arguement.

 

I'm not going to get into this surah that ayat type of a slinging match here. Lets assume that everything you and Waseem Rizvi claim is 100% true. That the 26 verses, even when looked at in a chronological context in the Quran curse the Kuffar.

Even so, Muslims have the right to believe in the finality of their revelation. They, or anyone else for that matter, have the right to hold on to a belief system no matter how discriminatory it may be. What right they don't have is to behave like nut-jobs and resort to violence. Its really that simple.

 

If the SC of India were to review every religious scripture, I'm afraid there would hardly be any reading on religion that would not be prohibited. 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Mariyam

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, Vilander said:

 

There is always periodic context, its not always possible to extrapolate a person who lived in ancient time to current time.  When masses of people hold an entity as a diety it does not make sense to disrespect them. Lol why would someone do that ? 

 

Origins of Criticism and Insult and Hate

 

Off course morally no one should be cursed or abused.  Only honest Criticism should be done morally. 

 

But we are talking here about "Humans", who are not "perfect", and they could not control over themselves, and they indeed indulge in all kinds of cursing/abusing/harsh words during discussions. 

 

Even the Writer of Quran (who is supposed to be a Divine being) was unable to control Himself, and indulged in every kind of cursing and bad words and disrespecting the Opponents in Quran. 

 

The balance is held in this way:

 

* If one is allowed to "preach" his religion, then one should also be ready that his religion will also get the "Criticism". 

Therefore, preaching and criticism go hands in hands. 

 

* If one want to have a right to "Praise" his god/prophet, then others automatically get the right to "Insult" his god/prophet.

They praise their god/prophet in present time by using the books of ancient times. 

While opponents then also use those ancient/history Books and other arguments to insult their god/prophet in present time. 

Both praise and insult go hands in hands too. 

 

* In same way "Love" and "Hate" also go hands and hands too. 

 

 

Let me explain the last point of praise/insult  and Love/Hate in more details. 

 

Muslims think that Prophet Muhammad is the best of mankind, and they are fully allowed to praise and love him as much as they wish by citing his "good deeds". 

 

While for opponents, Prophet Muhammad was a doing a Fraud and he was deceiving people in name of unseen revelation and unseen Allah. Millions of innocent people were killed only due to his false Drama of being a prophet. Millions of women had to become slaves and then provide sex services to their masters only due to prophet Muhammad. Millions of women still have to suffer even till today due to his false dramas. ........ (and lot more). 

 

Therefore, when any person holds this view that Prophet Muhammad was only playing a false drama of being a prophet, then ultimately, he is automatically Insulting Prophet Muhammad by keeping this opinion about him, and he will automatically start HATING Prophet Muhammad too. 

 

On the other side, Muslims are made to believe that Prophet Muhammad was a true messenger of Allah, and he SACRIFICED a lot for the sake of humanity. This automatically make Muslims to "praise" Prophet Muhammad, and also automatically make them to "love" him. 

 

I myself automatically loved and praised prophet Muhammad when I was a Muslim. But now when I am an Ex-Muslim, then my views about prophet Muhammad are automatically an insult to him, and certainly I am not able to love him any more. 

 

In very simple words, if you ask any ex-Muslim why he feels ill towards Prophet Muhammad, then his simple answer will be "For the SAKE of Humanity". 

[Vilander]

17 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

Even so, Muslims have the right to believe in the finality of their revelation. They, or anyone else for that matter, have the right to hold on to a belief system no matter how discriminatory it may be.

 You just said that when there is blm raging everywhere. Just because its a belief system its not ok to be discriminatory ever. 

[Vilander]

8 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Millions of women had to become slaves and then provide sex services to their masters only due to prophet Muhammad. Millions of women still have to suffer even till today due to his false dramas. ........ (and lot more). 

Honestly I don't want to defend Islam here hehe.. but there is a period context here. What do you think other non religious groups of people who were fighting other groups were doing at that time? It was unfortunately how humans were at the time. But I get the need for reform every religion should self reform. 

[coffee_rules]

Western law might be guaranteeing equal rights. Western society has regressed as much as Indian society in protecting the human rights of those criticizing Islam. Any comment of Islamic practices are termed as Islamophobia and the cancel culture of the left leaves those people ostracized from the community. Some countries have made Islamophobia illegal and punished like Kaneda. Denial of Holocaust is acceptable FoE

[Khota]

29 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Western law might be guaranteeing equal rights. Western society has regressed as much as Indian society in protecting the human rights of those criticizing Islam. Any comment of Islamic practices are termed as Islamophobia and the cancel culture of the left leaves those people ostracized from the community. Some countries have made Islamophobia illegal and punished like Kaneda. Denial of Holocaust is acceptable FoE

Western societies are still more aware and tolerant that majority of the world. We may not agree with everything they do but they still follow law more closely than others.