Wasim Rizvi criticised Quran, and then got beaten up in India. None supported him in India, including BJP. Indian Secularism incomplete

[Alam_dar]

Wasim Rizvi is a Shia. He felt that 26 verses of Quran about Jihad were the actual reason of terrorism among the Muslim community and thus should be removed from Qurans in India. For that they went to Supreme court. Now videos are circulating on the net, where he was made naked and then he was beaten up in Punjab India. 

 

It is so disheartening how a Human life and dignity is insulted in such a way. 

 

===

 

The soul of secularism lies in it that it allows all religions/ideologies to preach, but it also allows an individual person to differ and fully criticise any religion/ideology. 

 

India has yet some what incomplete secularism. It allows the religions to do preaching. But it does not fully allow the "criticism" upon the religions. 

 

Problem lies in the concept of "Respect of Religions". 

 

In name of this so called respect, it does not allow to publish the books which criticise religions openly. Even cases are registered against individuals in name of insulting/blasphemy religions. 

 

The existence of such "Blasphemy Laws" in India are against the true soul of Secularism. 

 

===

 

Another problem is this that NO ONE in India is ready to support Rizvi. 

 

BJP leaders are blaming Rizvi to be "Anti Social Element". Here is the video. 

https://youtu.be/Ujg0zP9sqaQ?t=423

 

I absolutely hate such Politics of BJP and right wing. Instead of standing for the Basic Human Rights of a citizen, they want to do their Politics and want to get the Muslim support and votes. 

 

Privately they hate Islam at the core of their heart. But now for Politics, they are standing with their Muslims brothers against Rizvi. 

 

While Indian Left is also utter useless and still follow the policy of "Respecting all Religions". They should wake up. There is no such thing as "respect of religion", but there is only one thing which is "Respect of Basic Human Rights". You have to stand up for the Human Beings and humanity, which have preference upon all that so called religions and their respect. 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Alam_dar

[Mariyam]

@Alam_dar

1) The person who got beat up in Punjab was not Wasim Rizvi, but an MLA. And the stated cause was the existing farm protests.

 

2) Taslima Nasreen was sentenced to one year imprisonment by a Bangladeshi court in absentia. Not by an Indian court. 

 

[Alam_dar]

18 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

 

 

2) Taslima Nasreen was sentenced to one year imprisonment by a Bangladeshi court in absentia. Not by an Indian court. 

 

 

Thanks. I edited my post about Taslima Nasreen. 

 

I feel that unfortunately MAIN Issue still exist there .... i.e. Blasphemy Laws.  If it is not Taslima Nasreen, then others had to suffer due to them. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law#India

 

Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code has been used as a blasphemy law to prevent insulting Christianity, Islam and Hinduism.^[215] ...

Section 295A has, nevertheless, been used a number of times to prevent free and honest discussion on religious issues and remains a threat to freedom of expression. The same section 295A appears in the penal codes of Pakistan and Myanmar where it is used as a blasphemy law. There have been widespread calls in India from civil society to repeal the regressive British code.^[219]

In India, many people are arrested in accordance with the above-mentioned laws. Cases include those of: Kamlesh Tiwari,^[220] Tarak Biswas,^[221] and Sanal Edamaruku.^[222] Many books are banned for blasphemous content.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Alam_dar

[Alam_dar]

34 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

@Alam_dar

1) The person who got beat up in Punjab was not Wasim Rizvi, but an MLA. And the stated cause was the existing farm protests.

 

 

Good that it was a false video and Rizvi has not been beaten up. 

 

But again I feel that the main issue remains there where Indian Muslims have been openly threatening to kill him and to beat him .... and BJP leaders supporting Muslims by blaming Rizvi. 

 

This whole Video by ABP news is disturbing, where first they are supporting Indian Muslim leaders against Rizvi, then they showed BJP leader blaming Rizvi, and at the end  Anchor is defending Quranic Jihad by telling the Jihad means only to do "Struggle" against the bad things. 

 

What a blind person this lady anchor is, while these 26 Quranic Verses are clearly using the words of Killing the KUFFARS and non-believers, and nowhere these 26 Quranic verses are talking about any "Struggle" against the bad things. 

 

Therefore, even if you don't have the courage to show those 26 verses of Quran directly in the Media, then at least don't come up with falsehood and deceptions and claim that thing which is absolutely not present there.  

 

This ABP News seems to be a right wing Hindu media house, and thus it is astonishing to see the extent of support they are providing to the wrong doings of Muslim leaders here, and how they are taking the side of Quran and Jihad against Rizvi. 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Alam_dar

[Mariyam]

@Alam_dar

 

Criticism of religion is a contentious issue.

 

There was a ruling some years ago by the Bombay HC that a person is free to criticise a religion using his fundamental right to freedom of speech. The ruling also added a caveat: That the criticism is bona-fide and academic and not malicious in nature. 

 

While the part in Italics+Bold is great in principle, it is what makes the ruling very contentious. Ideally, is it the work of a court to decide upon the intent of a book/article or vet for its academic credentials? 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Mariyam

[Vilander]

2 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

@Alam_dar

 

Criticism of religion is a contentious issue.

 

There was a ruling some years ago by the Bombay HC that a person is free to criticise a religion using his fundamental right to freedom of speech. The ruling also added a caveat: That the criticism is bona-fide and academic and not malicious in nature. 

 

While the part in Italics+Bold is great in principle, it is what makes the ruling very contentious. Ideally, is it the work of a court to decide what the intent of a book/article or check its academic credentials and intent? 

Humans in history have always tried to hurt those amoung them who were beyond their time. This individual who talks of religious reform is one such individual he will get hurt by those less intelligent than him sadly. 

[Alam_dar]

34 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

@Alam_dar

 

Criticism of religion is a contentious issue.

 

There was a ruling some years ago by the Bombay HC that a person is free to criticise a religion using his fundamental right to freedom of speech. The ruling also added a caveat: That the criticism is bona-fide and academic and not malicious in nature. 

 

While the part in Italics+Bold is great in principle, it is what makes the ruling very contentious. Ideally, is it the work of a court to decide upon the intent of a book/article or vet for its academic credentials? 

 

This ruling of Bombay HC is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, Indian society is still standing far away from accepting it fully. But I am hopeful that one day Indian society evolves enough to overcome this problem too. 

 

As compared to this Bomay HC Ruling, the Western Secular Laws provide more Freedom. 

 

Western Secular Laws say that any type of "verbal insults/abuses" do not fall under the category of crimes.  But if you hurt any one else physically (even by touching him/her without his/her consent), then this is a crime. 

 

I personally believe that Western Laws are more correct in this case. 

 

We could not make normal people to stop insulting/abusing others whom they disagree. Even the Writer of Quran was himself unable to stop insulting/abusing the opponents ... i..e Quran curses Kuffar everywhere, and Quran declares Kuffar to be dogs, donkeys and pigs, and dirty, and worst of the creatures etc. 

 

Muslims in private abuse and insult Hindu gods, while non-Muslims abuse Islam and Allah and prophet privately everywhere. Therefore, it is almost impossible to practice law of Bombay HC in such cases. Western law seems to be more practical here. 

[Mariyam]

2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Muslims in private abuse and insult Hindu gods, while non-Muslims abuse Islam and Allah and prophet privately everywhere. Therefore, it is almost impossible to practice law of Bombay HC in such cases. Western law seems to be more practical here. 

The part is bold in purely conjecture on your part. And untrue. Most people have better things to do than abuse God(s)/Goddesses/scripture/prophets.

People with an inferiority complex and lack of conviction about their own set of beliefs/values abuse other beliefs/values. 

 

However, this topic is not about what people do in the confines of their homes or in private. It's about what constitutes criticism. In the context of the Indian law, it is *intent* that decides what is bona fide criticism. 

 

I think you are mixing a lot of things here. Waseem Rizvi petitioned the SC that they remove the said 26 verses. There is no 'abuse' here. Yes, his request maybe strange and frivolous.

Is the work SC to decide on the content of religious texts???

The 'verbal abuse' was from people who threatened him after his request.  Some of whom have been booked for threatening him and the ensuing retarded fatwabaazi.

In this entire episode for what exactly are you faulting the Indian state or Indian society?

Edited March 29, 2021 by Mariyam

[PunterLog]

3 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

BJP leaders are blaming Rizvi to be "Anti Social Element". Here is the video. 

https://youtu.be/Ujg0zP9sqaQ?t=423

 

The name of the BJP leader who blamed Rizvi is "Jafar Islam" He's in the BJP due to some local rivalries, he's not the representation of BJP at all.

Quote

While Indian Left is also utter useless and still follow the policy of "Respecting all Religions". They should wake up. There is no such thing as "respect of religion", but there is only one thing which is "Respect of Basic Human Rights". You have to stand up for the Human Beings and humanity, which have preference upon all that so called religions and their respect. 

Imagine believing that the Indian left has the spine to stand up to Islamists. Most of Indian leftists are privileged elites who'll **** their pants if they ever came across a mob.

 

The Indian leftists are the opposite of the Chinese leftists who are hell-bent on educating and reforming the Uyghurs. Don't forget the phrase CCP used for Islam i.e "Islam is a mental illness that needs to be cured"

 

China is modifying the Quran and none of the 50+ Islamic countries can do anything about it while Indian leftists on the other hand will most probably side with Muslims for their votes.

[Clarke]

Yeah, western societies provide much more freedom of speech & expression.

 

In other news probability approaching 1 implying information content = 0 type statement, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. 

 

 

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

You are basically not distinguishing between criticism and  verbal abuse.

 

I have very limited knowledge, but still I tried to read about this issue and I believe that I do have the ability to differentiate between them. 

 

For example, may I ask you, where you put the following  ......  under criticism or verbal abuse:

 

* Cursing someone

* Saying "Bastard" to other

* Saying others to be dogs, donkeys, animals

* Saying others to be the worst of creatures

* Saying others to be Dirty

* Saying other Abu Jahl (Father of Ignorance) 

 

This is what is present in Quran (and many more). 

And if we move Sahih Bukhari and other Hadith Books, then situation becomes even worst ... For example the goddess of Qurash was abused in such dirty words in Sahih Bukhari that Muslims of today were not even able to translate it correctly and they distorted the English translations in order to avoid the usage of such words. 

 

Just imagine, if some one start cursing Allah or Quran or Prophet .... will it come under criticism or under verbal abuse?

 

In simple words: 

 

If Quran and Hadith Books are presented in the Courts, and judges have to judge them as they judge other cases where a common Person criticises or insults religions, then Quran and Hadith Books will have no chance and they will also be banned for insulting and abusing others. 

 

Only way to not ban Quran and Hadith books is by showing Double Standards during judging under the present Indian law. 

 

That is why I prefer Western Law over the present Indian Law. 

 

Secondly, the Western Law is fully accomplishing the task of JUSTICE. According to the Western law, if someone verbally insults/abuses you, then you are also fully allowed to insult/abuse him in return, but nothing more. You have the choice either to abuse in return, or to leave that person alone and move forward (as Quran also suggested it to Prophet Muhammad during his Meccan Life where he was weak and unable to take revenge when people of mecca used to abuse him). 

 

Thirdly, it is human nature that one starts using bad words for the opponent during discussions. Even the Writer of Quran also showed this human nature where he is cursing the Kuffar and using bad words for them. Therefore, Western Law keeps in mind this weakness of human nature and does not start punishing people for such cases. 

 

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

In this entire episode for what exactly are you faulting the Indian state or Indian society?

 

 

Basically Indian Society. 

 

I don't see anyone telling the Muslims about Indian Law that Rizvi has the right to criticise Islam directly. 

 

For example, I posted the video above from right wing Hindu media house. They are showing full support to the opponents of Rizvi and blaming Rizvi for many things directly and indirectly. 

 

Indian society is still far away from the point where western society is standing today .... where Christianity/Judaism have been criticized and even ridiculed openly for it's irrationalism without any fears and threats. 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Alam_dar

[Clarke]

Just now, Alam_dar said:

 

Indian society is still far away from the point where western society is standing today .... where Christianity/Judaism have been criticized and even ridiculed openly for it's irrationalism without any fears and threats. 

 

 

Why dont you & your lot make Pakistan super duper secular republic with a Jewish chief of army staff, Hindu PM & Christian head of ISI and then shame us Indians into accepting our faults.

[Alam_dar]

13 minutes ago, Clarke said:

 

Why dont you & your lot make Pakistan super duper secular republic with a Jewish chief of army staff, Hindu PM & Christian head of ISI and then shame us Indians into accepting our faults.

 

Pakistani society has gone to that depth, where I don't see any Reformation is possible from inside. Only huge external pressure could bring changes in case of Pakistan. 

 

While Indian society is capable of reforming itself, and it is indeed changing. 

[diga]

16 minutes ago, Clarke said:

 

Why dont you & your lot make Pakistan super duper secular republic with a Jewish chief of army staff, Hindu PM & Christian head of ISI and then shame us Indians into accepting our faults.

Futile to engage with lame rod when his intent is to show India in bad light no matter what you say

[Mariyam]

@Alam_dar Lets differentiate between hate speech,  demagoguery and plain abuse/cursing.

 

Let me ask you the question in return: Is it the work of the Supreme Court of India to decide the content of a religious book? If the SC did so, would that amount to infringing on right to freedom of religion? 

 

As I see it, Rizvi filed a petition as is his right. Some people who took umbrage filed cases against him , as is their right. And some of those who have made threats against him are booked. 

That is exactly how a democracy is supposed to work!

 

 

 

 

 

[Clarke]

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Pakistani society has gone to that depth, where I don't see any Reformation is possible from inside. Only huge external pressure could bring changes in case of Pakistan. 

 

While Indian society is capable of reforming itself, and it is indeed changing. 

 

Naa, you underestimate yourself. Like MK Gandhi said, be the change you want to see in the world. Please preach your ideals to Pak awam and make the country the envy of the west. Endia has become facist as per your kaptaan and certain secular media so it's a waste of time here. I have been trying hard to awaken the people of dar ka mahaul but it's not working. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Clarke

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

Lets differentiate between hate speech,  demagoguery and plain abuse/cursing.

 

Yes, off course we have to differentiate between them. 

 

The verses about Cursing Kuffar and others (which I mentioned above) come under abusing/cursing and thus I have absolutely no problem with them as this thing is common in human nature. Similarly Western Law also has no problem with such verses of cursing/abusing. 

 

While the verses about Jihad and killing them MAY fall under the hate speech. There are 26 such verses in Quran as has been mentioned by Rizvi. Similarly, there are tons of Ahadith too in the Hadith Books, which MAY fall under hate speech too. 

 

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

Let me ask you the question in return: Is it the work of the Supreme Court of India to decide the content of a religious book? If the SC did so, would that amount to infringing on right to freedom of religion? 

 

This is exactly what the Western Law is telling.... i.e. courts neither have to decide about the cursing/abusing contents of religious books, nor they have to decide about any other Book, by any citizen for it's contents for cursing/abusing. 

 

If cursing/abusing of religious books falls under the freedom of religion, then cursing/abusing of normal citizen falls under the freedom of expression. 

 

The Western Law is EQUAL for all in this regards, while Indian law has to become victim of double standards, where it has to close it's eyes from the cursing/abusing of religious books against Non-Muslims, but not vice-versa. 

 

2 hours ago, Mariyam said:

As I see it, Rizvi filed a petition as is his right. Some people who took umbrage filed cases against him , as is their right. And some of those who have made threats against him are booked. 

That is exactly how a democracy is supposed to work!

 

I am sorry that I am still not able to make my stance clear enough to you. 

 

For me, it is not about working of democracy, but it is a comparison between Indian Law and Western law regarding EQUAL RIGHTS. 

 

Present Indian Law is good, but still it has flaws as compared to the Wester Law, which guarantees Equal Rights. 

[Alam_dar]

4 hours ago, PunterLog said:

The name of the BJP leader who blamed Rizvi is "Jafar Islam" He's in the BJP due to some local rivalries, he's not the representation of BJP at all.

 

Then it's Ok. 

 

But still I am really angry upon ABP News. The lady anchor went to that extent where she was explaining JIHAD to us that it does not mean killing the Kuffar,  but means only to "Struggle against the bad things" . 

[Trichromatic]

12 hours ago, Mariyam said:

@Alam_dar

1) The person who got beat up in Punjab was not Wasim Rizvi, but an MLA. And the stated cause was the existing farm protests.

 

2) Taslima Nasreen was sentenced to one year imprisonment by a Bangladeshi court in absentia. Not by an Indian court. 

 

 

Do we need a different thread title?

[Clarke]

27 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Do we need a different thread title?

Yes please

 

It needs to be "dar ka mahaul hai "