Performance of batsmen in SA ODIs: It is the fragile middle order again

[sarcastic]

Here is the list of all batsmen from both SA and India in the series.
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=14164;type=series

 

If we carefully examine the stats below, we see that Dhawan is our best batman by a distance. Pant and Kohli were not bad although Kohli should have had higher S/R and Pant be more consistent. 

The problem is with KL Rahul who failed miserably and the middle order batsmen Shreyas Iyer (who played all three innings) and debutant V Iyer (who played two ODIs).
The lower middle order batsmen such as S Thakur and Chahar have done their duty more than what is expected of them. 

This clearly indicates that the problem is with middle order batsmen just like in test matches. While it is the old veterans that is the problem in tests, it is the newbie inexperienced batsmen who are not able to perform for team India.

The elephant in the room for team India is the fragile middle-order. That is where the fix needs to be made.

[Majestic]

Problem was with KL Rahul opening and his captaincy. A poor captain can't win anything irrespective of the quality of players available.

 

If he bats in middle and doesn't captain, then the problem gets solved. 

 

Another problem is our bowling. It was all over the place except Bumrah who they saw off without getting hurt and smacked the rest.

 

Shardul's bowling is poor too. His case in LOIs is a bits and pieces adding up. Deepak is a better bet.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Majestic

[Frustrated]

Fragile MO is the most glaring problem obviously. No.4 and 5 slots are vital.  S Iyer is too inconsistent.  Can't play short balls, Can't play decent spin.  Many (including myself) had thought that our no 4 slot had been sealed once he started playing few decent knocks in India in late 2019.  To be fair to him, he may hv the ability to absorb pressure and then score freely in subcontinent but can't seem to do so in SENA.   Luckily for us, there is some hope as the next WC is in india, so he might do decently, I believe.        On other hand, SKY has a high risk game. His style is suited more at no. 6.  But since he does not bowl at all, not much point in having him in the team as a pure Batsman.  We desperately need part timers in the playing 11 coz one of our main bowlers could hv an off day.  

[SRT100]

18 minutes ago, Frustrated said:

Fragile MO is the most glaring problem obviously. No.4 and 5 slots are vital.  S Iyer is too inconsistent.  Can't play short balls, Can't play decent spin.  Many (including myself) had thought that our no 4 slot had been sealed once he started playing few decent knocks in India in late 2019.  To be fair to him, he may hv the ability to absorb pressure and then score freely in subcontinent but can't seem to do so in SENA.   Luckily for us, there is some hope as the next WC is in india, so he might do decently, I believe.        On other hand, SKY has a high risk game. His style is suited more at no. 6.  But since he does not bowl at all, not much point in having him in the team as a pure Batsman.  We desperately need part timers in the playing 11 coz one of our main bowlers could hv an off day.  

 

India capable of fluking a world cup if the pitches in India are flat and offer zero assistance to the bowlers.

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, SRT100 said:

 

India capable of fluking a world cup if the pitches in India are flat and offer zero assistance to the bowlers.

if they offer zero assistance and are flat, then Eng will be favs.

[Adamant]

Obviously. 

I know we are bored coz of seeing the same top 3, but our middle order isn't doing well and unlike the top order bats the middle order are still young and at the peak of their powers. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

we r crying too much about batting in ODI , the real problem lies in bowling backup all rounder

our middle order have done well post 2019 Wc - pant, kl, hardik, iyer, jadeja all have done well post that time . In Sa only pant n iyer played in middle in which iyer was in his non favourable conditions

[prudent_kreeda]

6 hours ago, sarcastic said:

Here is the list of all batsmen from both SA and India in the series.
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=14164;type=series

 

If we carefully examine the stats below, we see that Dhawan is our best batman by a distance. Pant and Kohli were not bad although Kohli should have had higher S/R and Pant be more consistent. 

The problem is with KL Rahul who failed miserably and the middle order batsmen Shreyas Iyer (who played all three innings) and debutant V Iyer (who played two ODIs).
The lower middle order batsmen such as S Thakur and Chahar have done their duty more than what is expected of them. 

This clearly indicates that the problem is with middle order batsmen just like in test matches. While it is the old veterans that is the problem in tests, it is the newbie inexperienced batsmen who are not able to perform for team India.

The elephant in the room for team India is the fragile middle-order. That is where the fix needs to be made.

The important  measure to be considered  for any match, before we put the whole blame on MO , we need to look at  what position in the match earlier batsmen  have put the team . This should be judged by their contribution to winnability of a match and not on how many runs they scored ?

VK might have scored some runs but did it any way helped towards winnability ? did he reduce RR and made it to go up ? If RRR goes up , is it not making life much more difficult for MO ?  It applies to all 3 guys who come before MO.  

50% of the problem of India is due to top 3 with their style of play in recent years  .

Yes in SA series guys like Shreyas did not come good  but there should be efforts made to resolve the issue once root causes are clearly spelt out. 

One can also argue why not the top 3 bring the match to a level where it is much easier for MO to win . If from that position if India loses , then whole blame should be on MO. 

Take 2 of the SA matches -  The RR in one match so poor , Pant had to take responsibility and also take more risk to up RR. 

3rd match  - Top 3 had dragged the match to  a level  where SKY was taking lot more risk to up the RR .   

 

 1. Playing all 3 at the top who do not change their game style  and who are past their peak is a clear issue . 

2. Not attacking spinners /part timers in middle phase is another issue .

3. Not giving youngsters continued run in the X1 is an issue . 

A good TM should break this vicious cycle  to overcome this .

 

1. Change the personnel at top 3 and there should be a clear instruction re: what should be tempo of game which is expected . No point in show casing fifties scored by top 3 . If they put more pressure winning matches for India , then that should be clearly  dealt with .

2.Play youngsters who are MO players higher up wherever possible , if some seniors to be kept away , please do it by rotation.

3. Give continued chances in X1 to MO bats till one can conclude if he is good enough for MO . 

 

Actually 2 of the MO are almost settled  -Pant & KL . Only 1 spot needs to filled by a good player . Identify that guy and give him the chance . Go for SKY  first till he either comes good or fails next should be Ruturaj anywhere between 3 to 5 .. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by prudent_kreeda

[Lord]

if the 'fragile' middle order is problem, why cant one of top 3 move in middle and use their experience to fix it?

 

But ofcourse they won't do it. Even Rahul bats at 5 only because top 3 is booked and takes top 3 spot if any of them is missing.

[Vijy]

6 hours ago, Lord said:

if the 'fragile' middle order is problem, why cant one of top 3 move in middle and use their experience to fix it?

 

But ofcourse they won't do it. Even Rahul bats at 5 only because top 3 is booked and takes top 3 spot if any of them is missing.

yes, they would all rather play in top 3

[sarcastic]

15 hours ago, prudent_kreeda said:

The important  measure to be considered  for any match, before we put the whole blame on MO , we need to look at  what position in the match earlier batsmen  have put the team . This should be judged by their contribution to winnability of a match and not on how many runs they scored ?

VK might have scored some runs but did it any way helped towards winnability ? did he reduce RR and made it to go up ? If RRR goes up , is it not making life much more difficult for MO ?  It applies to all 3 guys who come before MO.  

50% of the problem of India is due to top 3 with their style of play in recent years  .

Yes in SA series guys like Shreyas did not come good  but there should be efforts made to resolve the issue once root causes are clearly spelt out. 

One can also argue why not the top 3 bring the match to a level where it is much easier for MO to win . If from that position if India loses , then whole blame should be on MO. 

Take 2 of the SA matches -  The RR in one match so poor , Pant had to take responsibility and also take more risk to up RR. 

3rd match  - Top 3 had dragged the match to  a level  where SKY was taking lot more risk to up the RR .   

 

 1. Playing all 3 at the top who do not change their game style  and who are past their peak is a clear issue . 

2. Not attacking spinners /part timers in middle phase is another issue .

3. Not giving youngsters continued run in the X1 is an issue . 

A good TM should break this vicious cycle  to overcome this .

 

1. Change the personnel at top 3 and there should be a clear instruction re: what should be tempo of game which is expected . No point in show casing fifties scored by top 3 . If they put more pressure winning matches for India , then that should be clearly  dealt with .

2.Play youngsters who are MO players higher up wherever possible , if some seniors to be kept away , please do it by rotation.

3. Give continued chances in X1 to MO bats till one can conclude if he is good enough for MO . 

 

Actually 2 of the MO are almost settled  -Pant & KL . Only 1 spot needs to filled by a good player . Identify that guy and give him the chance . Go for SKY  first till he either comes good or fails next should be Ruturaj anywhere between 3 to 5 .. 

In first ODI, India was 138/1 in 25.2 overs and 152/1 in 28.1 overs chasing 297 runs. 
In third ODI, India was 116/1 in 22.1 overs chasing 287 runs.

Both situations are ideal for middle-order to work upon. It is enough base for them to learn to chase targets. The RRR is not out of reach and they have sufficient time to get settled and go for the score.

In SF WC 2019 it is said that it is the top order that was blamed for not giving middle-order any practice until the semifinals by chasing away all the totals themselves and failing in the knockout.
I believe both the 1st and 3rd ODIs are ideal batting practice opportunities for the middle-order and they squandered away both of them.

Now, let us blame the top order that they did not complete the chase themselves but left too much to do for the middle order. 

[prudent_kreeda]

6 hours ago, sarcastic said:

In first ODI, India was 138/1 in 25.2 overs and 152/1 in 28.1 overs chasing 297 runs. 
In third ODI, India was 116/1 in 22.1 overs chasing 287 runs.

Both situations are ideal for middle-order to work upon. It is enough base for them to learn to chase targets. The RRR is not out of reach and they have sufficient time to get settled and go for the score.

In SF WC 2019 it is said that it is the top order that was blamed for not giving middle-order any practice until the semifinals by chasing away all the totals themselves and failing in the knockout.
I believe both the 1st and 3rd ODIs are ideal batting practice opportunities for the middle-order and they squandered away both of them.

Now, let us blame the top order that they did not complete the chase themselves but left too much to do for the middle order. 

 In 1st one day -   top 3  left 145 runs to get at almost 7 runs per over after consuming 29 overs . 145 is not a small score to get in 21 overs . Did they make it easy for next batsmen  re: winning the match ?  That why i say 50% of the blame has to for top 3 also. Why blame only MO ?

In 3rd one day again top 3 take  167 balls  and play 78-80% run rate , leaving unsettled MO to get 135 runs at 6.9 runs per over. If top 3 is our strength then can they put the game in difficult position in 2 out 3 matches in a series .

Hence saying,  objectively need to look  where top 3 leave the match w.r.t. winnability before putting all the blame on MO. 

Again Top3 each has nearly 10 years of experience whereas in MO no one knows will they play next match . So onus has to be more on whom ?