ravishingravi Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 It's a good job we didn't do what some thought was a good idea. Now the entire Ukraine project is being canned by the same west. Slowly they are setting everyone up for pulling out. How convenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboysfan Posted December 6, 2023 Author Share Posted December 6, 2023 50 minutes ago, ravishingravi said: It's a good job we didn't do what some thought was a good idea. Now the entire Ukraine project is being canned by the same west. Slowly they are setting everyone up for pulling out. How convenient. you think the West will stop ending weapons?more than a thousand Russians are being killed every day and the West doesnt have to lose a single soldier,all they have to is send more weapons.This is the biggest win-win for the West since the end of the cold war.Russia has taken up the mantle from the US is destabilising whole continents.They need to die,i hope their Republics break off and form their own country and let Moscow drown in their Vodka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 3 hours ago, cowboysfan said: you think the West will stop ending weapons?more than a thousand Russians are being killed every day and the West doesnt have to lose a single soldier,all they have to is send more weapons.This is the biggest win-win for the West since the end of the cold war.Russia has taken up the mantle from the US is destabilising whole continents.They need to die,i hope their Republics break off and form their own country and let Moscow drown in their Vodka. try not to listen to western propaganda in a war where they are supporting nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboysfan Posted December 6, 2023 Author Share Posted December 6, 2023 31 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: try not to listen to western propaganda in a war where they are supporting nazis. the nazis are Russians,they are trying to exterminator a whole country,they are pure evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, cowboysfan said: the nazis are Russians,they are trying to exterminator a whole country,they are pure evil. They are not the ones sporting Nazi insgnia and glorifying nazi collaborators, its the Ukrainians. The allied exterminated a whole country of Nazis, doesn't make them Nazis. As i said, stop peddling western propaganda when they are the one supporting Nazis. We literally had the Canadian PM and Ukrainian PM get inside the Canadian parliament and honour a known, actual Nazi. I am brown, so any side that fights the Nazi is the good guys as far as i am concerned. Edited December 6, 2023 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 Yea…. Lets leave one super power who had our back even when we were poor as a country. We can not have russia, china against us. Usa will flip according to their interests. So yea we can not. Sgattick10, raki05 and gattaca 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, Chaos said: Yea…. Lets leave one super power who had our back even when we were poor as a country. We can not have russia, china against us. Usa will flip according to their interests. So yea we can not. Russia is also the only major power in the world that has no civilisational or geopolitical clash with India- something that cannot be said for USA or China gattaca and ravishingravi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 At the Cold War’s height, this Russian admiral helped India create a fleet capable of countering the US and its allies Every December 4, when India salutes its navy's role in the 1971 war with Pakistan, it also remembers USSR naval chief Sergey Gorshkov, who helped New Delhi gain access to Moscow's military hardware and platforms India celebrates Navy Day each December 4 in memory of Operation Trident, launched against Karachi Harbour during the 1971 India-Pakistan war. As the 2023 grand ceremony takes place at Sindhudurg Fort off the coast of Maharashtra, with Prime Minister Narendra Modi attending in person, navy veterans also remember the role Russians played in making India a vibrant maritime power. Supply and demand Four months after India’s decisive victory over neighbor and arch-rival Pakistan in the 1971 war, Sergey Gorshkov, Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union, visited India. This was one of many such visits by Gorshkov to the country since 1964, as he spearheaded a move to make the Soviet navy a force to be reckoned with. He wanted close maritime cooperation with friendly foreign countries, including India. At the height of the Cold War with the United States of America, the admiral had opened the doors to India for Soviet military hardware and platforms. But his 1972 visit was more than a routine buying and selling of arms and ammunition. Post-World War II, Soviet weapons were untested (effectively) by any country in a major war. Admiral Gorshkov wanted to know the effectiveness and the tactical usages of his country’s weapons, which were being generally criticized by the West as ‘bulky and clunky.’ After its 1962 debacle with China and not-so-decisive victory over Pakistan in 1965, India was on a spree to buy warships and submarines. During the second India-Pakistan war, the Indian Navy didn’t retaliate against the Pakistan Navy’s daring attack on Dwarka, a religious coastal town associated with Lord Krishna. The political leadership in New Delhi possibly did not have confidence in its navy’s prowess, or it lacked the maritime capability then vis-a-vis the Pakistan Navy. Read more Brothers in arms: Russian weapons are key for India’s self-reliance During this turbulent period, the United Kingdom also turned down India’s military demands for the latest submarines. New Delhi thus inked a deal with Moscow to procure four submarines, five patrol frigates, four patrol boats, four landing ships, and five missile boats at affordable prices. This was all thanks to Admiral Gorshkov and is how he earned the moniker ‘Santa Claus’ from the Indian maritime fraternity. Surprise attack Tensions had simmered between India and Pakistan since early 1971 over the large-scale atrocities by Pakistan’s military regime in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and the large influx of Bengali immigrants into India’s West Bengal and the Northeastern States. The Indian Navy had received eight Osa-class missile boats from Moscow in October 1971. The Soviets had built these for coastal defense and the security of harbors. But the Indian navy, surprisingly for the whole world, including the USSR, deployed them to attack an enemy harbor about 1,000 nautical miles away from the Indian Navy’s Mumbai naval base. On the night of December 4, 24 hours after Pakistan had attacked many major air bases in North India, three Osa-class missile boats, named INS (Indian Naval Ship) Veer, Nirghat, and Nipat, attacked Karachi port. They sank Pakistan’s destroyer, the PNS Khaibar; its coastal minesweeper, the Muhafiz; and a Liberian-registered ship, the MV Venus Challenger, believed to be carrying US arms and ammunition for Pakistan. The missile boats during the attack were escorted by Soviet Petya class frigates Kiltan and Katchall. But how were Pakistan’s navy and intelligence agencies unaware of India’s attack plan? Indian missile boats managed to reach Karachi harbor undetected because the Indian crew communicated in Russian. These Osa missile boats had come only two months back, and the crew had visited the USSR for naval training. Thus, they could communicate in Russian and went unnoticed. Indian ingenuity on Russian weapons This was not the only attack these missile boats carried out. On the night of December 8, the Indian Navy again raided Karachi Harbour, using the missile boat INS Vinash escorted by the frigate INS Trishul. During the attack, the Panamanian vessel Gulf Star was sunk, while the Pakistani oil tanker Dacca and British ship SS Harmattan were damaged. Indian Sea Warriors set Pakistan’s Keamari oil tank farm ablaze. Air Force pilots who bombed Karachi air base the following day reported seeing the “biggest bloody bonfire in Asia.” Karachi Harbour remained ablaze for the following week, and the city couldn’t see rays of light for three days. Read more Camera, action: Moscow woos Bollywood with a soft power weapon of the new, multipolar world “But how did you attack Karachi harbor with missile boats that the Soviet Union had built for coastal defense?” Admiral Gorshkov supposedly asked the Indian Navy’s then Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Sardarilal Mathradas Nanda during his April 1972 visit. Admiral Nanda, who was in retirement by 2004, in his autobiography, ‘The Man Who Bombed Karachi,’ said: “After the war, Admiral S Gorshkov held long discussions with me on the successful missile boat attacks on Karachi. This was because the role in which [the] Indian Navy had deployed the missile boats had not been envisaged by the Soviets…the concept of attacking a defended port like Karachi had never occurred to them”. “Admiral Gorshkov was pleasantly surprised by our original strategies and tactics…and paid a lot of compliments” because the Indian Navy had towed the missile boats to the area of operation off Karachi, which, according to Admiral Nanda, was “an original piece of thinking.” The Soviet missile boats didn’t have the required endurance and capacity to go to Karachi and back under their own power. The Indian Navy, powered by Soviet subs and warships, was able to block the vital lines of sea communication between West Pakistan and East Pakistan. The naval blockade handicapped Pakistan by preventing the reinforcement of additional soldiers, weapons, and other necessary war-stores in East Pakistan. The result was that 93,000 Pakistani soldiers under the command of Lt Gen AAK Niazi surrendered on December 16, which ended the 13-day war and resulted in the liberation of Bangladesh. Cold War Spirit Supplying Osa-class missile boats for an attack on Karachi was not the only assistance Moscow provided India with. At the height of the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War, as it is now called, the US Navy’s Seventh Fleet, comprising the nuclear aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, entered the Bay of Bengal, where a maritime battle was ongoing between India and Pakistan. The US then was a close ally of Pakistan and didn’t want to lose the war against India, considered close to the USSR, let alone leave Pakistan to be divided into two countries. The US officially communicated to India about the entry of the USS Enterprise group into the Malacca Straits, the doorway to the Indian Ocean from Southeast Asia. The Seventh Fleet, according to Admiral Nanda, was not coming for war with the Indian Navy but to “pressurize” India to stop its battle with Pakistan. This task force was sent by then-US President Richard Nixon and his national security advisor (NSA), Henry Kissinger, both of whom considered then-Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi as their ‘bete noire.’ Kissinger died last week at the age of 100. Read more The green scam: How electric vehicles harm the environment that they’re supposed to save India remained firm in the face of US pressure tactics. Meanwhile, a Soviet destroyer and a minesweeper also entered the war zone through the Malacca Straits. Additional attachments also came from Moscow’s Pacific Fleet. It is unclear whether India sought the Soviets’ help or if Moscow (or Admiral Gorshkov) sent the flotilla to counter the US in the Bay of Bengal. Whatever the reason, the Soviet naval force ‘shadowed’ the US Naval Task Force till the latter left in January 1972. Every December 4, then, is Navy Day in India, after its 1971 win. India still remembers the Russian’ Santa Claus’ Admiral Gorshkov, who breathed his last in 1988. But his naval legacy still continues in India. One of the Indian Navy’s two aircraft carriers, the INS Vikramaditya, is a Kiev-class aircraft-carrying cruiser that was purchased by India in 2009. The other, the INS Vikrant, is an indigenously built one. The ship had been named in 1990 after Admiral Gorshkov and was then specially modified by Russia as an aircraft carrier before being delivered to the Indian Navy in 2013. gattaca and raki05 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 (edited) ^ A very nice read . Friendship and Indian jugaad with Russian weapons Edited December 7, 2023 by mishra gattaca, Muloghonto and raki05 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gattaca Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 On 12/6/2023 at 2:01 PM, cowboysfan said: the nazis are Russians,they are trying to exterminator a whole country,they are pure evil. The whole war could have been avoided had Ukraine not wanting to join nato.Russia and US had an agreement at the end of Cold War that NATO will not extend east. But this was broken. I doubt if US allows Mexico to be in military alliance with Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh bling Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 28 minutes ago, gattaca said: The whole war could have been avoided had Ukraine not wanting to join nato.Russia and US had an agreement at the end of Cold War that NATO will not extend east. But this was broken. I doubt if US allows Mexico to be in military alliance with Russia. Wasn't it Putin that annexed crimea forcibly from Ukraine which resulted in big tension between Ukraine and Russia. Actually Russia and Ukraine should had sorted the issue of crimea in 90s when Ukraine was de nuclearised . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 27 minutes ago, Singh bling said: Wasn't it Putin that annexed crimea forcibly from Ukraine which resulted in big tension between Ukraine and Russia. Actually Russia and Ukraine should had sorted the issue of crimea in 90s when Ukraine was de nuclearised . Only because Crimea is 75% Russian, was not part of Ukrainian territory ( it was given to Ukraine by Khruschev) and Ukraine & the west suddenly lost interest in the 'hyooman rights and freedom of crimeans to choose their destiny'. Crimea also hadn't had its demographics altered artificially aka Kashmir to favour the Russians (quite the opposite really). This is like saying if tomorrow India transfers Bangalore to Tamil Nadu and 10 years later, Tamil Nadu broke away from India, will India want & have the moral right to demand Banglaore back or not. The answer is yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 Stick to topic. This about india n russia. Not stupid ukraine which is one of the most corrupt countries and stupid nato Muloghonto and ravishingravi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Singh bling said: Wasn't it Putin that annexed crimea forcibly from Ukraine which resulted in big tension between Ukraine and Russia. Actually Russia and Ukraine should had sorted the issue of crimea in 90s when Ukraine was de nuclearised . Now why this happened. Read what happened to Oil and Gas explorations by foreign companies in Russia when Putin simply told them to GTFO. Also Black Sea was suddenly seen as having Gas reseves which Western Bloc knew cant access as long as Russian are there. Despite huge land mass, Russia has only one Sea Port Crimea that it can use 24X7X365, other get frozen. Even that, they are on mercy of Turkey to allow their ships to pass. I heard some Russian leader said, Issue between Russia and Ukraine is same as India Pakistan and similar root cause (Karakoram Pass--Similar-> Crimea Port). So It all started like this in 2011. Ukraine and Russia understood that they need to coexist and have good relation. Russia was using Ukranian Port(Crimea) and in Return Ukraine had a friendly priced energy to Ukraine. Mind you that there were lot of Russian living in Ukraine and second language was Russian. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict Ukraine had elected government till 2011 and then suddenly a Ukranian Spring happened , Ukraine gets its own Kejriwal style Gherao at "Maidan Square" and overturns the Government and decided to overturn all treaties it had with Russia and closed all media outlets which were favouring trade and peace with Russia. (Reason why most educated Indians doubt Kejriwal and IAC movememnt as a planned attack on wek gvmnt of Congress under MMS) So what do Russian do, They had 25 years of lease of Crimea starting 2012 and since they treated Russian living in Ukrain (like Hindus and Sikhs living in Pakistan and PoK) they decided to act. So 2014 happened. Now Crimea gets water from a river and Ukranian put a dam on it and stopped supply of water to Crimea. So 2022 happened. Its war of water from the river on each banks of which Russian and Ukranian sit. War of Gas underneath Black Sea. War of deniability of Port to Russia, expansion of NATO. Greater question is Who elected current government of Ukraine? How Maidan Rebellion happened? And since NATO has gained few more signatories since war started, and Electric revolution, Is NATO interested in continuing any more or are happy with achieved objective. Also Modern technology is making frozen Ports operational during winter. So may be Crimeas isnt that important 15-20 years down the line. Next US president if Republican will definitely extend olive branch to Putin Edited December 8, 2023 by mishra ravishingravi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 My above post is not very wel articulated but it has pointers for people to do their own research. SInce US election happen and parties and presidents change, Global dynamics change what remains constant is Russia has huge landmass, huge amount of natural resources, and has been never a imperialist power vis a vis India and has allways stood by us. Shall we simply jump the ship because for sake of deeper alliance with west? It would be blunder to ignore pottential and reality around importance of Russia. raki05, ravishingravi and Muloghonto 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haarkarjeetgaye Posted December 26, 2023 Share Posted December 26, 2023 No way with US back in Pakistan. We need Russia more than ever now till US forces us to move away from Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 7 hours ago, Haarkarjeetgaye said: No way with US back in Pakistan. We need Russia more than ever now till US forces us to move away from Russia. "Forces us". India's history has shien one thing. It can rarely be forced into a position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haarkarjeetgaye Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 2 hours ago, ravishingravi said: "Forces us". India's history has shien one thing. It can rarely be forced into a position. It will be forced upon or we have to live with Pak terror attacks supported by the US. That is where US will put pressure on us to either join USA against Russia and China or at least move away from Russia. It's theory for now but making more noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 30 minutes ago, Haarkarjeetgaye said: It will be forced upon or we have to live with Pak terror attacks supported by the US. That is where US will put pressure on us to either join USA against Russia and China or at least move away from Russia. It's theory for now but making more noise. This is nothing new. It has been tried and tested for 50 years atleast. India will not be forced I can assure. If anything, we will make a strategic call. raki05 and Haarkarjeetgaye 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haarkarjeetgaye Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 17 minutes ago, ravishingravi said: This is nothing new. It has been tried and tested for 50 years atleast. India will not be forced I can assure. If anything, we will make a strategic call. Hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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