Pakistan Civil-Military Political Crisis

[ravishingravi]

 

[ravishingravi]

Indians will donate to PTI. Raw will provide support. Best asset that money cannot buy. IK has dented Army's morale more than 65 or 71. 

[First class]

1 hour ago, ravishingravi said:

Indians will donate to PTI. Raw will provide support. Best asset that money cannot buy. IK has dented Army's morale more than 65 or 71. 

Hahaha, not a very smart try by Patwaris and our Indian friends, whatever you guys do, IK is unstoppable .

[sandeep]

5 hours ago, First class said:

You guys think you know more about Pakistan then I do, and if you're happy to have your own interpretation of the situation over there , then enjoy and have fun. People in Pakistan also have brain and heart and they also think and feel about their country but  you guys think otherwise , I have no issue if that gives you a bit pf pleasure, why not. 

FC bhai, this is not a 'banter' thread.  And nobody's claiming to "know more".  But of course we will have our outsider's perspective on the facts - relatively free from emotional biases that may get triggered from the attachment that naturally Pakistanis would have towards Imran at an individual level.  I don't think its arguable that the facts regarding Imran's "leadership" in the political arena - leave a lot to be desired.  Is he better than the "alternatives"? Sure.  The point isn't to support "others" over Imran.  The point (of this thread at least) is to discuss the genuine political crisis and chaos that Pakistan is in, and the risks that it poses to all - Pakistanis, and their neighbors.  I get that as a supporter of Imran, who's fatigued and embittered with other political 'leaders', you feel that he's the way forward.  However, apart from his being "relatively better" than the Bhuttos/Sharifs etc, there's not a lot of 'there', there, as far as the way forward for Pakistan is concerned.  You are making 2 massive assumptions - one - that somehow magically the 'establishment' is simply going to hand over power to him, without a fight, and more importantly the second, that somehow just by handing over leadership to Imran, Pakistan is sure to be moving in the right direction.  To an outsider, neither of these seem realistic.  Honestly.  As a relative well-wisher for Pakistan, I have nothing against Imran, but I see him being just as much part of the problem as the other politicians, just slightly different.

[First class]

4 hours ago, sandeep said:

FC bhai, this is not a 'banter' thread.  And nobody's claiming to "know more".  But of course we will have our outsider's perspective on the facts - relatively free from emotional biases that may get triggered from the attachment that naturally Pakistanis would have towards Imran at an individual level.  I don't think its arguable that the facts regarding Imran's "leadership" in the political arena - leave a lot to be desired.  Is he better than the "alternatives"? Sure.  The point isn't to support "others" over Imran.  The point (of this thread at least) is to discuss the genuine political crisis and chaos that Pakistan is in, and the risks that it poses to all - Pakistanis, and their neighbors.  I get that as a supporter of Imran, who's fatigued and embittered with other political 'leaders', you feel that he's the way forward.  However, apart from his being "relatively better" than the Bhuttos/Sharifs etc, there's not a lot of 'there', there, as far as the way forward for Pakistan is concerned.  You are making 2 massive assumptions - one - that somehow magically the 'establishment' is simply going to hand over power to him, without a fight, and more importantly the second, that somehow just by handing over leadership to Imran, Pakistan is sure to be moving in the right direction.  To an outsider, neither of these seem realistic.  Honestly.  As a relative well-wisher for Pakistan, I have nothing against Imran, but I see him being just as much part of the problem as the other politicians, just slightly different.

You're right , it won;t be easy , but perhaps you guys are underestimating people power behind IK. IK is not another Bhutto or Nawaz Sharif, they were ordinary politicians , IK is not. When Bhutto and NS were  brought down from power , there was wide spread celebration all over the country , but , since Ik was brought down there has been nation wide protest against it. I have never seen so much motivation and energy shown by any politician anywhere in recent times. Perhaps you don;t know he has addresses 68 big Jalsas in just last 2-3 months , in every corner of the country . Never saw so much fitness and energy in a 70 year old man. 

 

   Army also has many weaknesses , they have to keep their popularity among the people to survive . Some say they will get IK assassinated , no they won;t , if they did , they will not be able to withstand the public backlash.  Army is actually worried about IK's security because if IK is assassinate by someone else, army will be blamed for that.  At the end,  there will be some sort of deal, IK is not the kind of man who likes to be dictated . 

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, First class said:

You're right , it won;t be easy , but perhaps you guys are underestimating people power behind IK. IK is not another Bhutto or Nawaz Sharif, they were ordinary politicians , IK is not. When Bhutto and NS were  brought down from power , there was wide spread celebration all over the country , but , since Ik was brought down there has been nation wide protest against it. I have never seen so much motivation and energy shown by any politician anywhere in recent times. Perhaps you don;t know he has addresses 68 big Jalsas in just last 2-3 months , in every corner of the country . Never saw so much fitness and energy in a 70 year old man. 

 

   Army also has many weaknesses , they have to keep their popularity among the people to survive . Some say they will get IK assassinated , no they won;t , if they did , they will not be able to withstand the public backlash.  Army is actually worried about IK's security because if IK is assassinate by someone else, army will be blamed for that.  At the end,  there will be some sort of deal, IK is not the kind of man who likes to be dictated . 

Honestly, I think this is a grossly simplified, highly optimistic take on things, bordering on fantastical.  

 

But at the end of the day, the bottomline from an Indian peacenik perspective is that there can't be proper peace between Ind-Pak until the PakMil mafia is defanged and not allowed to control the Pak Economy, its politics, and its foreign policy.  So I hope you are right and I am wrong.  I just do not believe that Imran can accomplish a power transfer that you think his 'people power' can pull off.  I don't think PakMil needs to assassinate him to stop him.....

[Vilander]

On 10/29/2022 at 3:51 PM, First class said:

If any one could do it , it was Imran Khan and I'm glad he brought Pakistani Army into its knees.  Bhutto and Sharif both tried it but failed , but both of them were selfish , corrupt and unpatriotic , , not Imran Khan . I was never so optimistic about Pakistan's future , but I'm sure good days are ahead for Pakistan.  If IK makes a comeback , army will be limited to its professional duties. IK is an educated,  peace loving and strong leader, what Pakistan has been missing until now.  I'm sure Kashmir issue will not be resolved peacefully as long as Pakistan has weak and corrupt leaders .  It will be resolved, if ever,  between two strong political leaders with big public support and army stays away. 

it will be resolved based on what Pakistanis assume is the resolution in the first place.

[Deucalion]

IK is stubborn, he is not even close to Jinnah , but he isnt bhutto or sharif . the problem is that hes not corrupt , ( whatever toshakhana case is not going to harm him in anyway ) hes different, the Establishment has nothing on him , unlike others where Establishment have tons of evidence of others corruption . 

 

he showed incompetent in governance last time , but he says Establishment blackmailing him through other allies , so hes deciding to take other route, hes looking for 2/3 majority for next tenure , hes going to change constitution , which can make him Erdogan of Pakistan atleast for a decade . 

 

its either 2/3 majority , or  getting assassinated . theres no third option for him . 

dont forget even if he becomes PM/President , still he can get the assassination  . 

 

currently punjab govt arrested an afghani man , who crosses the border to kill him . only few journalists and IK knows about it . 

dont know who sent him or its an Establishment move . no one knows . 

[SM2907]

What do they mean by Paxtan is a creation of consequence. 

 

[mishra]

You have to Give it to Imran Khan. He has got and will keep the whole Nation together. “Sadak par (on Road)“  irrespective of who wins between Imran and establishment.

 

Big question is, Can  Pakmil  do a Benazir here?

Edited November 2, 2022 by mishra

[SM2907]

Can they accept in a press conference like this that they lost all wars with India.

 

That will be fun to watch 

[Autonomous]

IK has media power, not the street power. 

 

 

[Clarke]

What is the end goal anyways if the election is a year away ? Is he asking people to overthrow govt on his behalf ?

[sandeep]

3 hours ago, Clarke said:

What is the end goal anyways if the election is a year away ? Is he asking people to overthrow govt on his behalf ?

Goal is personal 'victory'.  Petulance at being ousted.  Country's needs of the hour - economic crisis, flooding, everything else is secondary.  Personal victory is everything.  The narcissism is next level.  

 

 

[ravishingravi]

Its quite amazing how short term Pakistanis and Pakistan establishment thinks. No wonder, the country is in this state. Foreign relations, policy, economic policy, role of religion. Everything is determined by short term needs and trends. 

 

No relation. But I have a friend born on Aug 14th who also behaves exactly like this country. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by ravishingravi

[Deucalion]

maybe the guy is narcissist , maybe he wants his own victory , but people are forgetting that he has threat to his life , according to Intel reports .

 

the guy is marching on the road without having proper security , so whats that ? he got a death wish or what  ? 

 

dont forget that , arshad shareef was shot dead in kenya few days ago . 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Deucalion

[mishra]

3 hours ago, Deucalion said:

 

dont forget that , arshad shareef was shot dead in kenya few days ago . 

During Atalji’s era, one of our intelligence official was enroute to meet someone to get some incriminating evidence against Jet airways finance/funding (i think link with D Company)  When he was about to reach Jammu, He was arrested by Local police at a Checkpoint as someone had informed the Police that a terrorist, matching description of our agent and his vehicle was travelling that night. 

 

So, what happened with Arshad has D Company written in Highlighted Bold letters. I don’t know why.

Edited November 2, 2022 by mishra

[Deucalion]

1 hour ago, mishra said:

During Atalji’s era, one of our intelligence official was enroute to meet someone to get some incriminating evidence against Jet airways finance/funding (i think link with D Company)  When he was about to reach Jammu, He was arrested by Local police at a Checkpoint as someone had informed the Police that a terrorist, matching description of our agent and his vehicle was travelling that night. 

 

So, what happened with Arshad has D Company written in Highlighted Bold letters. I don’t know why.

 

maybe, but its isi written all over it, its a trade mark for them when they want to send the message to anyone , this time its for other journalists and IK , they could use other method covertly to send the message , suicide, overdose , by using toxic nerve agent etc etc .

but they done that overtly with purpose . 

 

if they want. they can find anyone , anywhere in the world , even in US , India or place like north korea.  they have network all over the world . they have human resources as well as Cyber security experts , Hackers  etc 

 

there media warfare game is top notch , you cant counter it . i believe no one use media warfare game in Asia better thn them . 

 

in 98, Gen Musharraf told once to Chaudhry Nisar who was ex-interior minister that if Nawaz sharif wants thn they can get rid off Altaf hussain in London for good . 

Ch Nisar was against it, and Nawaz sharif chickend out, so they buried the matter . 

 

as i said before, IK has no other options left , its either 2/3 majority or getting assassinated . 

 

 

[ravishingravi]

7 hours ago, Deucalion said:

 

maybe, but its isi written all over it, its a trade mark for them when they want to send the message to anyone , this time its for other journalists and IK , they could use other method covertly to send the message , suicide, overdose , by using toxic nerve agent etc etc .

but they done that overtly with purpose . 

 

if they want. they can find anyone , anywhere in the world , even in US , India or place like north korea.  they have network all over the world . they have human resources as well as Cyber security experts , Hackers  etc 

 

there media warfare game is top notch , you cant counter it . i believe no one use media warfare game in Asia better thn them . 

 

in 98, Gen Musharraf told once to Chaudhry Nisar who was ex-interior minister that if Nawaz sharif wants thn they can get rid off Altaf hussain in London for good . 

Ch Nisar was against it, and Nawaz sharif chickend out, so they buried the matter . 

 

as i said before, IK has no other options left , its either 2/3 majority or getting assassinated . 

 

 

 

I would say highly unlikely given the amount of attention he has on him. Plus the backlash that could come. This is  perhaps the youngest population in the world. No one can manage the situation if people completely lose it. 

 

Imran Khan being elected by 2/3rd wont get him off the hook. If they can get Bhutto, they can get him. He will always be looking over his shoulder. He cannot win this one. Its asymmetric war. He has to win elections and establishment doesn't have to. They will anyway be here. He can become PM and be a good boy of establishment. His only get out option. His strategy right now is to suffocate the relationship between PDM and establishment. Make it impossible for establishment to consider another option. 

[sandeep]

Imran shot?  
 

there is only one prime suspect in this case and their name rhymes with Barmy.

 

 It’s time for a revolution, i guess. Brace yourselves , this is going to get bumpy.