Hatsoff to Jadeja and Ashwin - Golden combination for Indian test cricket

[speedracer]

15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Even in SA his record would have been better but for dropped catches. Anyway Kookaburra balls are not that effective on those pitches. Even current world T20 India's spin force is not being effective. Seamers are doing the damage mostly.  

How come it works in Oz though. There is a reason why saffer is a swing paradise along with being bouncy and spongy. 

 

Phiktrundler of all bowlers has an insane record there. Believe it or not guys like bhoobi would doe extremely well there. 

 

Trundlers who can swing are super effective in SA. Even moreso than bounce bowlers.

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, speedracer said:

How come it works in Oz though. There is a reason why saffer is a swing paradise along with being bouncy and spongy. 

 

Phiktrundler of all bowlers has an insane record there. Believe it or not guys like bhoobi would doe extremely well there. 

 

Trundlers who can swing are super effective in SA. Even moreso than bounce bowlers.

 

They never offer grassy track to Australia as they know their fate. THey don't have the necessity to nullify their spin talent. But any slight help to Ash or Jaddu will run through them.  Another aspect is cricket ball they use. Either way Indian bowling rarely suffered there except on a handful of occasions. It is the batting that always let us down

 

Last 10 years vs SA in SA. Spin was hardly a threat from any side.  They all average over 40 except NZ which you can ignore. THey bowled only l ike 20 odd overs took 3 wickets in 2 tests. Not a big sample. Otherwise spin was never a factor there. But overall India's performance has been the 2nd best in the last decade due to very good pace attack. England did well there due to their pace. 

 

Bowling by all type of bowling

 

 

Bowling by spin

 

 

Bowling by pace

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

11 minutes ago, speedracer said:

How come it works in Oz though. There is a reason why saffer is a swing paradise along with being bouncy and spongy. 

 

Phiktrundler of all bowlers has an insane record there. Believe it or not guys like bhoobi would doe extremely well there. 

 

Trundlers who can swing are super effective in SA. Even moreso than bounce bowlers.

 

In OZ  pitches are little drier.  Bounce is a bit more.

[R!TTER]

22 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

In OZ  pitches are little drier.  Bounce is a bit more.

The same can be said of SA, both places Jadeja has a great record in albeit over a small sample size. I also think the NZ/Eng pitches are doctored way too much for their seamers! As a result spin rarely comes into play, on days 3-5, as it did 20 years back -

 

Opposition team England  or New Zealand

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2012 and 31 Dec 2023

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler  or mixture/unknown

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 15

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 7 of 7

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
KA Maharaj (SA)	2017-2022	11	16	360.0	70	1049	40	6/40	8/87	26.22	2.91	54.0	2	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	2013-2019	15	29	561.5	112	1649	55	6/49	9/161	29.98	2.93	61.2	1	0
R Ashwin (IND)	2014-2020	7	10	204.1	34	560	17	4/62	7/121	32.94	2.74	72.0	0	0
Yasir Shah (PAK)	2016-2020	9	16	392.3	48	1337	33	6/72	10/141	40.51	3.40	71.3	2	1
RL Chase (WI)	2017-2020	10	13	266.0	30	1022	23	5/172	5/172	44.43	3.84	69.3	1	0
RA Jadeja (IND)	2014-2022	13	23	480.4	77	1318	27	4/79	7/258	48.81	2.74	106.8	0	0
HMRKB Herath (SL)	2014-2016	8	15	355.4	49	1046	20	4/81	5/231	52.30	2.94	106.7	0	0

 

 

 

Opposition team England  or New Zealand

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 31 Dec 2011

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler  or mixture/unknown

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 15

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 8 of 8

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
M Muralidaran (SL)	2002-2006	7	12	366.4	91	919	49	8/70	11/132	18.75	2.50	44.8	4	3
SK Warne (AUS)	2000-2005	16	32	709.0	136	2165	103	7/165	12/246	21.01	3.05	41.3	7	3
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK)	2001-2001	4	7	226.0	64	486	17	4/24	8/72	28.58	2.15	79.7	0	0
CH Gayle (WI)	2000-2009	16	20	234.5	34	692	24	5/34	6/81	28.83	2.94	58.7	1	0
Harbhajan Singh (IND)	2002-2011	10	18	389.0	61	1133	35	6/63	7/102	32.37	2.91	66.6	2	0
DL Vettori (NZ)	2004-2008	5	7	186.2	28	528	16	5/66	6/177	33.00	2.83	69.8	2	0
A Kumble (IND)	2002-2007	6	12	317.5	67	987	28	4/66	7/159	35.25	3.10	68.1	0	0
Danish Kaneria (PAK)	2003-2010	9	17	428.0	64	1313	30	7/168	7/189	43.76	3.06	85.6	1	0

 

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, R!TTER said:

The same can be said of SA, both places Jadeja has a great record in albeit over a small sample size. I also think the NZ/Eng pitches are doctored way too much for their seamers! As a result spin rarely comes into play, on days 3-5, as it did 20 years back -

 

Opposition team England  or New Zealand

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2012 and 31 Dec 2023

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler  or mixture/unknown

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 15

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 7 of 7

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
KA Maharaj (SA)	2017-2022	11	16	360.0	70	1049	40	6/40	8/87	26.22	2.91	54.0	2	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	2013-2019	15	29	561.5	112	1649	55	6/49	9/161	29.98	2.93	61.2	1	0
R Ashwin (IND)	2014-2020	7	10	204.1	34	560	17	4/62	7/121	32.94	2.74	72.0	0	0
Yasir Shah (PAK)	2016-2020	9	16	392.3	48	1337	33	6/72	10/141	40.51	3.40	71.3	2	1
RL Chase (WI)	2017-2020	10	13	266.0	30	1022	23	5/172	5/172	44.43	3.84	69.3	1	0
RA Jadeja (IND)	2014-2022	13	23	480.4	77	1318	27	4/79	7/258	48.81	2.74	106.8	0	0
HMRKB Herath (SL)	2014-2016	8	15	355.4	49	1046	20	4/81	5/231	52.30	2.94	106.7	0	0

 

 

 

Opposition team England  or New Zealand

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 31 Dec 2011

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler  or mixture/unknown

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 15

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 8 of 8

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
M Muralidaran (SL)	2002-2006	7	12	366.4	91	919	49	8/70	11/132	18.75	2.50	44.8	4	3
SK Warne (AUS)	2000-2005	16	32	709.0	136	2165	103	7/165	12/246	21.01	3.05	41.3	7	3
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK)	2001-2001	4	7	226.0	64	486	17	4/24	8/72	28.58	2.15	79.7	0	0
CH Gayle (WI)	2000-2009	16	20	234.5	34	692	24	5/34	6/81	28.83	2.94	58.7	1	0
Harbhajan Singh (IND)	2002-2011	10	18	389.0	61	1133	35	6/63	7/102	32.37	2.91	66.6	2	0
DL Vettori (NZ)	2004-2008	5	7	186.2	28	528	16	5/66	6/177	33.00	2.83	69.8	2	0
A Kumble (IND)	2002-2007	6	12	317.5	67	987	28	4/66	7/159	35.25	3.10	68.1	0	0
Danish Kaneria (PAK)	2003-2010	9	17	428.0	64	1313	30	7/168	7/189	43.76	3.06	85.6	1	0

 

saqlain, as expected, was pretty good. sehwag smashed him so badly that his career ended prematurely. a case of premature ejection

[zen]

When domestic pitches were turning around/in 2015, below is what Dravid, probably U19 coach in that period, said at that time - Even Rahul Dravid was pretty blunt in saying that the domestic pitches, in general, this season have been poor. “We don't want green tops but also we don't want wickets where matches finish in two days and people who are bowling darts are getting six-seven wickets. I think we need to be very careful that we don't go down that path,” Dravid, who is coaching the under-19 Indian team, was quoted as saying by a news agency on Thursday."

 

Sums of the performances of these so called spinners in India! 

[Trichromatic]

13 minutes ago, zen said:

When domestic pitches were turning around/in 2015, below is what Dravid, probably U19 coach in that period, said at that time - Even Rahul Dravid was pretty blunt in saying that the domestic pitches, in general, this season have been poor. “We don't want green tops but also we don't want wickets where matches finish in two days and people who are bowling darts are getting six-seven wickets. I think we need to be very careful that we don't go down that path,” Dravid, who is coaching the under-19 Indian team, was quoted as saying by a news agency on Thursday."

 

Sums of the performances of these so called spinners in India! 

 

How many matches ended in two days?

 

How is Jadeja averaging 46 since 2016 on these pitches?

 

[zen]

25 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

How many matches ended in two days?

 

How is Jadeja averaging 46 since 2016 on these pitches?

 

That is supposed to be a figure of speech by Dravid, implying games ending quickly. 

 

I think such pitches are unfair to spinners as well as people would eventually stop taking their performances seriously (esp. when they get contrasted against poor to average performances in different conditions), and can eventually bring bad reputation to India as a cricket nation. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

24 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

How many matches ended in two days?

 

How is Jadeja averaging 46 since 2016 on these pitches?

 

 

Srilanka/West Indies/Bangladesh India doesn't prepare pitches. They do well there as well.  

[speedracer]

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

They never offer grassy track to Australia as they know their fate. THey don't have the necessity to nullify their spin talent. But any slight help to Ash or Jaddu will run through them.  Another aspect is cricket ball they use. Either way Indian bowling rarely suffered there except on a handful of occasions. It is the batting that always let us down

 

Last 10 years vs SA in SA. Spin was hardly a threat from any side.  They all average over 40 except NZ which you can ignore. THey bowled only l ike 20 odd overs took 3 wickets in 2 tests. Not a big sample. Otherwise spin was never a factor there. But overall India's performance has been the 2nd best in the last decade due to very good pace attack. England did well there due to their pace. 

 

Bowling by all type of bowling

 

 

Bowling by spin

 

 

Bowling by pace

 

 

 

Yea see englund with their swing trundllers always do well there. They whip them too. 

We need better batsmen you are right. Pathetic useless batsmen vs swing. We don't pick the right players. We can beat SA away. 

[vvvslaxman]

57 minutes ago, speedracer said:

Yea see englund with their swing trundllers always do well there. They whip them too. 

We need better batsmen you are right. Pathetic useless batsmen vs swing. We don't pick the right players. We can beat SA away. 

 

SL had a below average bowling  attack when they beat SA in SA.

[speedracer]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

SL had a below average bowling  attack when they beat SA in SA.

Yea embuldanya ran through them. 

 

Need a good wrist spinner plus 3 or 4 pacers with 1 or 2 that can bat well. 

 

And mainly need a well equipped stroke playing batsmen. So sky may actually do ok there. His quickfire 30 40 can be a difference. 

 

Wickets though when we toured last time got better and better for batting. So it wad different. It had a more nz wickets feel to it. So we made a blunder by not outbatting them. 

[vvvslaxman]

27 minutes ago, speedracer said:

Yea embuldanya ran through them. 

 

Need a good wrist spinner plus 3 or 4 pacers with 1 or 2 that can bat well. 

 

And mainly need a well equipped stroke playing batsmen. So sky may actually do ok there. His quickfire 30 40 can be a difference. 

 

Wickets though when we toured last time got better and better for batting. So it wad different. It had a more nz wickets feel to it. So we made a blunder by not outbatting them. 

 

Need mentally strong 4th innings players. INdia could have won in SA long back if only had some mentally stronger 2nd innings players. I am talking from the era of Tendu/Dravid.  They always fizzed out in the 2nd innings

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, speedracer said:

Yea embuldanya ran through them. 

 

Need a good wrist spinner plus 3 or 4 pacers with 1 or 2 that can bat well. 

 

And mainly need a well equipped stroke playing batsmen. So sky may actually do ok there. His quickfire 30 40 can be a difference. 

 

Wickets though when we toured last time got better and better for batting. So it wad different. It had a more nz wickets feel to it. So we made a blunder by not outbatting them. 

SA only needs 3 pacers + 1 wrist spinner since 4 bowlers can get 20 wickets, when supported by a 5th bowler like glassman. kuldeep can be the wrist spinner we need. and the 3 pacers can be drawn from usual pace stock.

 

in the future, we need to nurture bawa, arjun t, hangu, and others

[speedracer]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

SA only needs 3 pacers + 1 wrist spinner since 4 bowlers can get 20 wickets, when supported by a 5th bowler like glassman. kuldeep can be the wrist spinner we need. and the 3 pacers can be drawn from usual pace stock.

 

in the future, we need to nurture bawa, arjun t, hangu, and others

Yea one who can bat and bowl is key. Pandu doesn't want to play. Cries like a bitch for test cricket. Hanegrakr arjun would be nice.

Lefties caused all sorts of problems in SA

Jaiswal sundar would have been ideal.

Edited February 23, 2023 by speedracer

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, speedracer said:

Yea one who can bat and bowl is key. Pandu doesn't want to play. Cries like a bitch for test cricket. Hanegrakr arjun would be nice.

Lefties caused all sorts of problems in SA

Jaiswal sundar would have been ideal.

sarfaraz can bat and also keep. a promising LOI keeper perhaps

[Trichromatic]

On 2/22/2023 at 10:54 PM, zen said:

 

That is supposed to be a figure of speech by Dravid, implying games ending quickly. 

 

I think such pitches are unfair to spinners as well as people would eventually stop taking their performances seriously (esp. when they get contrasted against poor to average performances in different conditions), and can eventually bring bad reputation to India as a cricket nation. 

 

Which type of pitches?

 

First test was difficult for bowlers.

 

Jadeja and Axar batted for long time and bowlers struggled to pick wickets.

[zen]

25 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Which type of pitches?

 

 

For me, any pitch where ball turns like a day 4/5 pitch esp. where Indian pacers bowl less than 50 overs in the game. 

 

 

Quote

First test was difficult for bowlers.

 

 

Less than 1,000 runs in total scored in a test in Ind. 

 

Quote

Jadeja and Axar batted for long time and bowlers struggled to pick wickets.

 

It means nothing. 

 

Aus' bowlers like Murphy are relatively inexperienced for such conditions and bowling to highly experienced (for the conditions) Indian batsmen. As a line up batting deep at home, India is expected to get some runs as some batsmen can click. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by zen

[Trichromatic]

3 hours ago, zen said:

 

For me, any pitch where ball turns like a day 4/5 pitch esp. where Indian pacers bowl less than 50 overs in the game. 

 

 

 

Less than 1,000 runs in total scored in a test in Ind. 

 

 

It means nothing. 

 

Aus' bowlers like Murphy are relatively inexperienced for such conditions and bowling to highly experienced (for the conditions) Indian batsmen. As a line up batting deep at home, India is expected to get some runs as some batsmen can click. 

 

It was decent batting track where India scored 400. It was nowhere close to day 4 and 5 tracks. Don't watch match on scorecards only.

 

Jadeja and Axar can't bat for Australia. India got to bat only in 1 inning that too with weak batting line up consisting of deadwoods like Pujara and KL. India was also missing their in form batsman Iyer. An in form batting unit would have scored 1000 runs in 2 innings there.

 

400 is not some runs. Lyon is experienced and one of the best spinners in world atm. Australia had world #1 bowler in Pat Cummins. It's a strong bowling line up. Boland averaged 13 in test cricket then.

 

No team scores 400 runs on pitches turning like 4 and 5. When was last time any team scored 400 on turning track on day 5 in India?

 

It's one thing to criticize players, other to be dishonest about a particular match/series. 

 

 

[zen]

8 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

It was decent batting track where India scored 400. It was nowhere close to day 4 and 5 tracks. Don't watch match on scorecards only.

 

Jadeja and Axar can't bat for Australia. India got to bat only in 1 inning that too with weak batting line up consisting of deadwoods like Pujara and KL. India was also missing their in form batsman Iyer. An in form batting unit would have scored 1000 runs in 2 innings there.

 

400 is not some runs. Lyon is experienced and one of the best spinners in world atm. Australia had world #1 bowler in Pat Cummins. It's a strong bowling line up. Boland averaged 13 in test cricket then.

 

No team scores 400 runs on pitches turning like 4 and 5. When was last time any team scored 400 on turning track on day 5 in India?

 

It's one thing to criticize players, other to be dishonest about a particular match/series. 

 

 

I did watch parts of the game.  No need to unnecessary try to “dishonestly” defend a pitch just because it is in India, which has a reputation of playing on tailored pitches (not amount of logical fallacies can change that). For e.g., againsy Eng in a test at A’bad, Pant & Sundar took India to 350+. It was a pitch assisting spin as well. 

Already written on the inexperienced Aus bowling attack esp. for the conditions (don’t know what posting bowling averages of a bowler who played like 6-7 tests changes. Such new bowlers can be a hit esp. if they can reverse swing or a miss), bowling to those experienced for these conditions Indian batsmen … Lyon is the only experienced spinner (and he too plays like a handful of tests every few years in India), while India plays with 3 for such conditions. 

 

Not every pitch behaves exactly the same. There are degrees to bad pitches too. We look at general properties where if the ball turns like say 4/5 on day 1, amount of rough created on day 1, scores of less than 1,000 in India, Ind seamers bowling less 50 overs in the game, and so on. 
 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by zen