Washington Sundar should be third spinner if India want to play that extra all rounder( in absence of Bumrah)

[Majestic]

With due respect to all the performances that Axar has delivered, as long as Jadeja is there, we can't play both Jadeja and Axar in the team.

 

Preferably, a bowling attack of Bumrah, Shami and Siraj would be great to have. But as long as Bumrah is not there and we don't have enough pace options available ( Shardul isn't a choice and Prasidh isn't available), Washington Sundar is the best choice for third spinner option( an off spinner who is not easy to score off) and a technically proficient batsman who is capable of playing quickfire cameos when needed. He also gives you a left handed option and extra depth in batting, can even bat at 4/5 when a top order collapses.

 

It should be either

 

Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Kuldeep, Jadeja, Pandya

 

Or( if Bumrah isn't available)

 

Shami, Siraj, Kuldeep, Pandya, Jadeja, Sundar

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Majestic

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

With due respect to all the performances that Axar has delivered, as long as Jadeja is there, we can't play both Jadeja and Axar in the team.

 

Preferably, a bowling attack of Bumrah, Shami and Siraj would be great to have. But as long as Bumrah is not there and we don't have enough pace options available ( Shardul isn't a choice and Prasidh isn't available), Washington Sundar is the best choice for third spinner option( an off spinner who is not easy to score off) and a technically proficient batsman who is capable of playing quickfire cameos when needed. He also gives you a left handed option and extra depth in batting, can even bat at 4/5 when a top order collapses.

 

It should be either

 

Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Kuldeep, Jadeja, Pandya

 

Or( if Bumrah isn't available)

 

Shami, Siraj, Kuldeep, Pandya, Jadeja, Sundar

 

 

if we need 3 spinners, then I agree sundar should be 3rd spinner. axar should be 2nd spinner in ODIs. his batting has improved a lot, even though bowling has regressed. jaddu is not that capable with bat or ball in ODIs anymore. kuldeep, axar, and sundar would be a good trio since 2 of them bat well.

[Insidious]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

if we need 3 spinners, then I agree sundar should be 3rd spinner. axar should be 2nd spinner in ODIs. his batting has improved a lot, even though bowling has regressed. jaddu is not that capable with bat or ball in ODIs anymore. kuldeep, axar, and sundar would be a good trio since 2 of them bat well.

Jaddu won us the 1st match. Axar should be included as a batsman who can bowl and should replace SKY in the middle order

[Majestic]

54 minutes ago, Insidious said:

Jaddu won us the 1st match. Axar should be included as a batsman who can bowl and should replace SKY in the middle order

If you want a batsman who can bowl then why not Sundar over Axar.

 

Batting at 4 is different from 8 and you already have Jadeja with similar bowling style.

[vvvslaxman]

We can add any number of players. The all rounders you add have to be big hitters like Marsh, Stoinis. Can't  be strike rotators.  We do not have any one belonging to that category. Pandya, Jadeja, Sundar, Axar can bat. But are they massive hitters? Not really. More often than not their role will be smashing in the last 10 overs. Nobody is consistent in finishing the last 10 overs. We are a team that can go from 300/4 in 40 overs to 350/8 in 50 overs consistently.

Edited March 20, 2023 by vvvslaxman

[tapandrun]

Off Spinner role should be fulfilled with a batter who can bowl. As there may be games where an off-spinner will not needed if there is a big hitting right handed batter is at the crease.

 

Sundar does not seems to have the power game for a no. 5/6/7/8 batter or a top batter game needed for top 4 batters.

Ind needs to work on composition of the team rather than filling the random places.

 

Hooda is a example of trying to fit a player at random place, no  one in Ind TM knows the role or position/role for him

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by tapandrun

[zen]

First, ICC is likely to offer batting-friendly pitches (assuming the discussion is about the upcoming ODI WC). And with the possibility of heavy dew, going with 3 spinners may not be ideal for any team (unless the player offers other benefits). 

 

Second, players like Sundar has to do well in the upcoming IPL, where the best of India's domestic and national talents play with top overseas players in familiar conditions. Sundar is inconsistent and also not a reliable fielder so would like to see improvements this season, otherwise, he becomes another name that is considered better because he is not playing (Why Sarfaraz, etc. are great options? Because they are not playing. Once a Sarfaraz plays, a Yash Dhull becomes the next "better" option than those in the 11. Doing well in Ranjis should not be given a high weightage than the ability to play pace, swing, and bounce, which can be observed in any format esp. versus quality bowlers). 

 

Third, players like Axar are in a purple patch with the bat (Jadhav had a couple of good years). Therefore, the team may not want to lose out on their current form. IPL is important for the likes of Axar too to showcase that they are still in form. 

 

 

 

[zen]

Btw, talking about IPL, the IPL forum is now open so time to head there  

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

3 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

We can add any number of players. The all rounders you add have to be big hitters like Marsh, Stoinis. Can't  be strike rotators.  We do not have any one belonging to that category. Pandya, Jadeja, Sundar, Axar can bat. But are they massive hitters? Not really. More often than not their role will be smashing in the last 10 overs. Nobody is consistent in finishing the last 10 overs. We are a team that can go from 300/4 in 40 overs to 350/8 in 50 overs consistently.

 

Ironically enough, we were expecting the IPL to give a stage for domestic big-hitters to showcase their skills on their way to the Indian team.  Over the years, it's become clear that the franchises utilize foreign players for these roles and there is no room for domestic hitters (with a few exceptions) to develop.  

[zen]

32 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

Ironically enough, we were expecting the IPL to give a stage for domestic big-hitters to showcase their skills on their way to the Indian team.  Over the years, it's become clear that the franchises utilize foreign players for these roles and there is no room for domestic hitters (with a few exceptions) to develop.  

 

IPL is not necessarily about developing Indian players though a franchise would have certain upcoming players in its squad, keeping its future (and maybe trade potential) in mind. It is about performing when a player gets a chance. To get the chance, one has to impress in domestic (whether India or overseas), U19, international matches (for new overseas players), etc. 

 

Usually, quality players are in a limited supply, while the demand is more as there are 10 franchises, which roughly means a rotation of around 140-150 players during a season across the teams. If power hitters are played in the middle order (ignoring powerplay big hitters), it means 4 slots in every team, where you will find top Indian talents slotted, along with overseas players (Most countries including India do not have a talent pool where it can give 40 quality big hitters. Many countries struggle to find even 10 high-quality hitters in a generation. Much like high-quality fast bowlers, high-quality big hitters are relatively rare). 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

32 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

Ironically enough, we were expecting the IPL to give a stage for domestic big-hitters to showcase their skills on their way to the Indian team.  Over the years, it's become clear that the franchises utilize foreign players for these roles and there is no room for domestic hitters (with a few exceptions) to develop.  

One that we produce are guys like DK. Combination of innings building and power hitting is non-existent now. If the current team were in similar situation like we were in 2011 final there is a good chance we would lose. We probably would have lost semi final itself.

[BacktoCricaddict]

7 minutes ago, zen said:

 

IPL is not necessarily about developing Indian players though a franchise would have certain upcoming players in its squad, keeping its future (and maybe trade potential) in mind. It is about performing when a player gets a chance. To get the chance, one has to impress in domestic (whether India or overseas), U19, international matches (for new overseas players), etc. 

 

Usually, quality players are in a limited supply, while the demand is more as there are 10 franchises, which roughly means a rotation of around 140-150 players during a season across the teams. If power hitters are played in the middle order (ignoring powerplay big hitters), it means 4 slots in every team, where you will find top Indian talents slotted, along with overseas players (Most countries including India do not have a talent pool where it can give 40 quality big hitters. Many countries struggle to find even 10 high-quality hitters in a generation. Much like high-quality fast bowlers, high-quality big hitters are relatively rare). 

 

 

 

Good points. 

 

Totally agree that it is not IPL teams' job to groom players to play for India.  They will, as they should, pick whoever helps them win right now. 

 

But, I (and other fans too I would guess), were hoping that this opportunity would allow potential domestic big-hitters (e.g. Samad, Dube etc.) to develop into consistent performers and become viable India-options, especially with restrictions on how many non-Indians can be in each XI.  But it's like - after Yuvraj, early-days Dhoni and Raina, all of whom were established big-hitters pre-IPL, there's just no one.

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

11 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

One that we produce are guys like DK.

And then, there's the strange case of pre-injury Pant.  Seems to have all the tools to be *that* guy in T20s, but never really caught on in T20Is.  

 

[putrevus]

When we have played two left arm seamers, why we cannot play two left arm spinners.

 

Question remains is Sundar better than Axar is all aspects? Personally I would pick based on the pitch and team we are playing

[zen]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

Good points. 

 

Totally agree that it is not IPL teams' job to groom players to play for India.  They will, as they should, pick whoever helps them win right now. 

 

But, I (and other fans too I would guess), were hoping that this opportunity would allow potential domestic big-hitters (e.g. Samad, Dube etc.) to develop into consistent performers and become viable India-options, especially with restrictions on how many non-Indians can be in each XI.  But it's like - after Yuvraj, early-days Dhoni and Raina, all of whom were established big-hitters pre-IPL, there's just no one.

 

 

Samad, Dube, SRK, etc. do get opportunities but they have to develop their games to be picked consistently.  On the other hand, India has players like Samson, Tewatia, etc.

 

PS the likes of SKY, who is currently rated among the best T20 batsmen, got opportunities due to IPL. Pant also made it through IPL but hasn't clicked as per expectations yet in the T20s. SDP (captain now) & Bumrah also came through IPL (talking about Bumrah, other pace bowlers such as Siraj, Umran, & maybe Moshin if fit and firing). This is a good set of talent that came through hard work and performance (This is like once-in-a-generation talent. IPL is not going to be a printing machine that will keep on printing such talent year after year. Players have to put in hard work as well, esp. once they are found out, to improve their games). 

Edited March 20, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

46 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

And then, there's the strange case of pre-injury Pant.  Seems to have all the tools to be *that* guy in T20s, but never really caught on in T20Is.  

 

Currently our best mode of finishing happens when the top order hangs around till  50th over like Gill did.

[Vijy]

7 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

Good points. 

 

Totally agree that it is not IPL teams' job to groom players to play for India.  They will, as they should, pick whoever helps them win right now. 

 

But, I (and other fans too I would guess), were hoping that this opportunity would allow potential domestic big-hitters (e.g. Samad, Dube etc.) to develop into consistent performers and become viable India-options, especially with restrictions on how many non-Indians can be in each XI.  But it's like - after Yuvraj, early-days Dhoni and Raina, all of whom were established big-hitters pre-IPL, there's just no one.

 

 

jadhav was better than some of the current lower-order players, which is saying a lot since he's not world class by any means... but I think he gets a bad rep more than needed

[deepdynamo]

Jadeja is a must in starting XI.

Kuldeep will also be a sure starter in XI as lone spinner ( unless chewtiya collar chewer come back)
 

That means Axar, Washington and Shardul will be vying for No. 8 spot.

Currently Axar is in form but you never know 6 months ahead so best bet is to give game time to Washington just for the sake of bowling variety.

[Vijy]

6 hours ago, deepdynamo said:

Jadeja is a must in starting XI.

Kuldeep will also be a sure starter in XI as lone spinner ( unless chewtiya collar chewer come back)
 

That means Axar, Washington and Shardul will be vying for No. 8 spot.

Currently Axar is in form but you never know 6 months ahead so best bet is to give game time to Washington just for the sake of bowling variety.

chahal will be back somehow or the other. TM loves him