zen Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 As we know, the current system favors the top-order (#1-3) batsmen for the orange cap without considering SR and/or impact. The latest outpour against slow Indian top-order batsmen is driving a discussion on new criteria for the orange cap. Tom Moody: The highly sought after Orange Cap should be judged with S/R in mind. I believe runs + S/R combined are more valuable/relevant in #T20. This would also include middle order batters who are rarely in contention. What that formula is, I’ll leave to the experts. @IPL ABDV: Been saying this for ages. No brainer. It’s a comp between 1,2 and possible/rarely number 3 batters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 The debate has already started a few months back once Indian and Pakistani fans saw England approach. Just like with most things we wake up late. I didn’t watch the PSL but online on social media guys like Babar, Rizwan etc we’re getting grilled by fans and analysts. Around the same time, Venky Prasad-KL Rahul issue became a popular topic. I believe Doull said some things about Babar that caused quite a stir too much before he called out Virat (his opinion might be right but in that context I don’t think it was his fault. I don’t think he purposely slowed down) So I believe to some extent this debate has caught enough traction already. it helps that a struggling Warner is leading the Orange cap race. so all signs pointing to re-doing the orange cap criteria. in fact just like impact player there should be a impact calculator for both batting and bowling. I am not qualified enough to come up with a formula but there are enough skilled mathematicians, statisticians especially the ones with love for cricket to come up with something. Teams already have a lot of them. Just a matter of time. vvvslaxman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chakdephatte Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 Use Cricinfo's mvp criteria. They give an mvp after every match which is almost always different than POTM. nevada 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chakdephatte Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) Runs above average is the only technique which balances it for lower order batsmen. Last year, it out Livingstone as the purple cap winner who was also the ideal choice. @zen See- https://twitter.com/hganjoo_153/status/1528450540174286852?s=20 Edited April 13, 2023 by Chakdephatte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chakdephatte Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) Even Cricviz has an impact rating @zen https://twitter.com/cricvizanalyst/status/1646149593757786116?s=20 Edited April 13, 2023 by Chakdephatte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chakdephatte said: Moody came up with the worst idea he could. Unless it's proven that S.R and average are inversly proportional, adding or multiplying doesn't make sense. Moody hasn’t come up with any idea apart from suggesting to find a way to factor SR w/ runs (or average for that matter). Also it is a standard practise to multiply (not add) two or more quantities with different units. Edited April 13, 2023 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK55 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 Interesting concept. I don’t think any complex statistical analysis is required or even useful over here. Just gotta be a bit creative. What they could do is combine both, strike rate and runs scored in one metric. For instance, every run scored gets scaled by a multiplier that’s directly proportional to the strike rate. Just as an example, let’s say the batter scores at 180. Then each marginal run scored gets multiplied by 1.8 or some monotonic function of strike rate. Now to make it more interesting, we gotta remove the bias that lower order power hitters currently face in the Orange cap. So over here what they could do is also make the scalar multiplier be dependent on the overs left in the game and the wickets remaining. For instance we can make the strike rate more important if few overs are left in the innings. Can also incorporate wickets remaining but that is confusing. So I’m not sure how to factor that. I like this idea as the Orange cap should go to the best batter. Not someone who’s costing the team by his batting approach. Also, there shouldn’t be too many caps as that defeats the purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chakdephatte Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 5 hours ago, MK55 said: Interesting concept. What they could do is combine both, strike rate and runs scored in one metric. For instance, every run scored gets scaled by a multiplier that’s directly proportional to the strike rate. Still openers are gonna win it. Runs above average is the only method fair to lower order batsmen. 6 hours ago, zen said: Moody hasn’t come up with any idea apart from suggesting to find a way to factor SR w/ runs (or average for that matter). Also it is a standard practise to multiply (not add) two or more quantities with different units. Looks like a misunderstood his method. Do read my other replies. Three different methods are being used by statsmen to calculate impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK55 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 3 hours ago, Chakdephatte said: 9 hours ago, MK55 said: Interesting concept. What they could do is combine both, strike rate and runs scored in one metric. For instance, every run scored gets scaled by a multiplier that’s directly proportional to the strike rate. Expand Still openers are gonna win it. Runs above average is the only method fair to lower order batsmen. Not necessarily. It is reasonable to expect that a batter is gonna last some overs say 5-7 on average if he bats at a good strike rate. As that entails he needs to take more risk. An opener may not last towards the end of the innings. How often do we see that? As I proposed earlier, if the runs multiplier is a function of both strike rate and the overs remaining, lower order batters can maximize their runs towards the end (They need to take risks for shorter time). Now an opener can obviously play slowly and survive till the end overs to maximize. But he will also be lower his cumulative strike rate. All this method is dynamic and ball to ball. Runs above average is fine. But that’s too static and takes the entire fun out of it. Also keep in mind we don’t know the probability distribution of runs. Average will only converge to the true average regardless of the distribution if the sample size is sufficiently large. Probably better as a statistic towards the end of the tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 It’s not going to be as cut and dry as runs vs strike rate. On a tough pitch at times a 40(40) can be match winning under some circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK55 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 50 minutes ago, maniac said: It’s not going to be as cut and dry as runs vs strike rate. On a tough pitch at times a 40(40) can be match winning under some circumstances. That’s really not difficult to take care of. First calculate strike rate adjusted runs scored for a player. Also do that for every player in both the sides. Rank them or use some other ordinal metric. And add some extra runs to each person’s score based on his rank or gap with respect to others. So that’s like an adjustment maniac 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chakdephatte Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 54 minutes ago, MK55 said: That’s really not difficult to take care of. First calculate strike rate adjusted runs scored for a player. Also do that for every player in both the sides. Rank them or use some other ordinal metric. And add some extra runs to each person’s score based on his rank or gap with respect to others. So that’s like an adjustment That's the key concept of Cricviz impact rating. I don't know what Cricinfo uses for finding MVP, but it must be similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 19 hours ago, zen said: As we know, the current system favors the top-order (#1-3) batsmen for the orange cap without considering SR and/or impact. The latest outpour against slow Indian top-order batsmen is driving a discussion on new criteria for the orange cap. Tom Moody: The highly sought after Orange Cap should be judged with S/R in mind. I believe runs + S/R combined are more valuable/relevant in #T20. This would also include middle order batters who are rarely in contention. What that formula is, I’ll leave to the experts. @IPL ABDV: Been saying this for ages. No brainer. It’s a comp between 1,2 and possible/rarely number 3 batters zen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throwaib_Chuckter Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 DT: I will grab that orange cap !!!Chuckte Raho TC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoCricaddict Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 The real solution is to get rid of these meaningless stat-pad individual awards altogether. Tattieboy and Lord 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tattieboy Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 3 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said: The real solution is to get rid of these meaningless stat-pad individual awards altogether. Meg Lanning arguably the greatest woman batter showed her utter contempt for having to wear the stupid orange cap and Harsh Boggle was looking ridiculous by bringing it up all the time , oh you still have the orange cap , oh sorry but you have to hand it back , yeaaaah you got it back . No player cares about it , to them only 2 things matter ...show me the salary and how much extra do I get if we win the trophy . BacktoCricaddict 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 6 minutes ago, Tattieboy said: Meg Lanning arguably the greatest woman batter showed her utter contempt for having to wear the stupid orange cap and Harsh Boggle was looking ridiculous by bringing it up all the time , oh you still have the orange cap , oh sorry but you have to hand it back , yeaaaah you got it back . No player cares about it , to them only 2 things matter ...show me the salary and how much extra do I get if we win the trophy . they do get some cash prize for orange cap too AFAIK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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