Rank them as all rounders in Tests

[putrevus]

8 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

huh? Jadeja literally is equal to two players in home conditions. If you discount his bowling due to conditions, he averages 40 with bat in same conditions too.

 

What has Stokes done with ball in Asia even when he was fit? Or even with bat?

 

All Stokes has is a 5th gear which makes him attractive.

Jadeja is bowler who could bat and Stokes is a batsman who could bowl.

 

Stokes has ability to change the match with his bat which Jadeja does not have and he never had.I like Jadeja a lot but Stokes is better.Both of them play all three formats.

 

In whiteball cricket , it is not even a contest.

Edited July 2, 2023 by putrevus

[Lord]

Just now, putrevus said:

Jadeja is bowler who could bat and Stokes is a batsman who could bowl.

 

Stokes has ability to change the match with his bat which Jadeja does not have and he never had.I like Jadeja a lot but Stokes is better.

 

Jadeja changes it with the ball. Far more impactful.

 

With bat, Jadeja's support acts are much better away than Stokes' with the ball.

[putrevus]

Just now, Lord said:

 

Jadeja changes it with the ball. Far more impactful.

 

With bat, Jadeja's support acts are much better away than Stokes' with the ball.

Where has he changed with ball other than in India.

 

With Bat he is supporting act at his best.

[Suhaan]

32 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Jadeja changes it with the ball. Far more impactful.

 

With bat, Jadeja's support acts are much better away than Stokes' with the ball.

Stokes has become more of a batsman who just bowls to change ends

Jadeja with the ball in SC is dangerous

[Lord]

30 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Where has he changed with ball other than in India.

 

With Bat he is supporting act at his best.

4fer v Aus in Sydney 2021. Broke crucial partnership

4fer in Oval 2018 to set up the game

 

Where has Stokes changed with bat outside home?

 

Jaddu might be support act with bat but he's a far better support than Stokes is with ball especially outside home

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, Lord said:

4fer v Aus in Sydney 2021. Broke crucial partnership

4fer in Oval 2018 to set up the game

 

Where has Stokes changed with bat outside home?

 

Jaddu might be support act with bat but he's a far better support than Stokes is with ball especially outside home

what did India do in Sydney 2021? Sydney has been always a spinners pitch , so has been Oval. Yasir Shah took ten wickets in Oval to win them a test.

 

AT home is where his type of bowling help , is he a top of the bowler like Jadeja is at home no but he is far better batsman than Jadeja everywhere.

 

 

[Lord]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

what did India do in Sydney 2021? Sydney has been always a spinners pitch , so has been Oval. Yasir Shah took ten wickets in Oval to win them a test.

 

AT home is where his type of bowling help , is he a top of the bowler like Jadeja is at home no but he is far better batsman than Jadeja everywhere.

 

 

 

So now even SENA performances are cancelled if track offers bit of spin?

 

Lyon the home spinner was pummelled on same spinners pitch.

 

Stokes is not a top bowler even in England.Just a support and now a part timer.

 

[Nikola]

If stokes gets called clutch for his home performance so should be for likes of pant, jadeja, axar, ashwin. In last few years they have played many clutch knocks and saved team from loosing in tough conditions. Pant infact did overseas too. Not their fault that most opposition are not good enough for these conditions.

[Majestic]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

And yet his average is the same. It tells he has high peaks but is inconsistent

 

Jaddu might not score big tons but has scored following

 

68 at Lords 2014 

86 at Oval 2018 after a collapse

81 in Sydney 2019

57 at Melbourne 2021 (very crucial partnership with Rahane)

56 at Trent Bridge 2021

100 in 5th Test in England last year

 

thats good consistency in SENA for a no. 7-8

It's like comparing Kapil Dev with Vettori. Averages won't define players like Ben Stokes. He is just an incredible player with the knack of inconsistency.

[Majestic]

4 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Neither can Smith, not sure what your point is?

 

You forgot WC finale or WT20 last year?

Smith has dominated Ashes and won matches for his team by delivering in pressure situations but obviously not like what Stokes does when the stakes are highest. That's why Stokes is as good as any 40 averaging batsman.

[Lord]

8 hours ago, Majestic said:

It's like comparing Kapil Dev with Vettori. Averages won't define players like Ben Stokes. He is just an incredible player with the knack of inconsistency.

 

Then what will? Stokes is no way near Kapil.

 

How is he incredible if he consistently failed outside home and specially in Asia?

[Lord]

8 hours ago, Majestic said:

Smith has dominated Ashes and won matches for his team by delivering in pressure situations but obviously not like what Stokes does when the stakes are highest. That's why Stokes is as good as any 40 averaging batsman.

 

stakes weren't high enough in Ashes in Aus and India trips I guess.

[Majestic]

12 hours ago, Lord said:

 

stakes weren't high enough in Ashes in Aus and India trips I guess.

They are used to getting smashed in Aus and Ind. Stakes are high as they would not want to lose Ashes at home.

[Majestic]

12 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Then what will? Stokes is no way near Kapil.

 

How is he incredible if he consistently failed outside home and specially in Asia?

I said comparing Stokes batting with Jadeja batting based on averages is same as comparing Kapil batting with Vettori batting ( both avg 30). 

 

Stokes hasn't failed outside home, he is just inconsistent.

[Lord]

8 minutes ago, Majestic said:

They are used to getting smashed in Aus and Ind. Stakes are high as they would not want to lose Ashes at home.

 

That's new spin on high stakes. India don't want to lose at home to Aus/Eng so Ashwin/Jaddu are far better at high stakes games as they do it consistently.

 

Overseas doesnt matter as we are expected to lose

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

I said comparing Stokes batting with Jadeja batting based on averages is same as comparing Kapil batting with Vettori batting ( both avg 30). 

 

Stokes hasn't failed outside home, he is just inconsistent.

He has failed overseas except few innings here and there. Even those mostly in draws and losses.

 

Kapil and Vettori are different eras. Vettori batted in flat pitch era which is why his bowling suffered too.

[R!TTER]

It's actually BS, Stokes is a lower order bat at best in Asia! Remember the avg scores in India last few years?

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

On continent Asia

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2013

Qualifications hundreds scored greater than or equal to 1  and wickets taken greater than or equal to 20

Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
RA Jadeja (IND)	2013-2023	37	1497	175*	39.39	2	192	7/42	20.69	11	21	0	18.70
Shakib Al Hasan (BAN)	2013-2022	24	1554	116	42.00	1	82	5/68	32.97	6	7	0	9.02
R Ashwin (IND)	2013-2023	48	1440	124	24.40	2	305	7/59	19.81	24	18	0	4.59
Mehidy Hasan Miraz (BAN)	2016-2022	21	799	103	22.82	1	87	7/58	31.82	6	7	0	-8.99
BA Stokes (ENG)	2015-2022	18	996	128	29.29	1	24	5/73	38.91	1	25	0	-9.62
MM Ali (ENG)	2015-2021	12	592	146	25.73	2	45	4/66	38.97	0	9	0	-13.23

[Majestic]

11 hours ago, Lord said:

 

That's new spin on high stakes. India don't want to lose at home to Aus/Eng so Ashwin/Jaddu are far better at high stakes games as they do it consistently.

 

Overseas doesnt matter as we are expected to lose

The home pitches are far too conducive for Ashwin and Jadeja as the England pitches are for Stokes. 

 

As I had said earlier, the pitches in India are simply not well balanced( spinners pick 6-fer and 7-fer for fun) as they are in England which is why home performances don't get the same value for Jadeja as it does for Stokes.

11 hours ago, Lord said:

He has failed overseas except few innings here and there. Even those mostly in draws and losses.

 

Kapil and Vettori are different eras. Vettori batted in flat pitch era which is why his bowling suffered too.

If you watch Kapil and Vettori bat, irrespective of the era they played anyone can guess Kapil was levels ahead as a batsman than Vettori. Kapil also played a lot of matches on flat decks in 80s but his average is low not due to pitches but due to aggressive nature of batting.

 

Same is for Stokes who has played the kind of innings that Jadeja and even Shakib can't really dream of playing like Capetown 2016, Headingley 2019 and Lords 2023.

[Lord]

9 hours ago, Majestic said:

The home pitches are far too conducive for Ashwin and Jadeja as the England pitches are for Stokes. 

 

As I had said earlier, the pitches in India are simply not well balanced( spinners pick 6-fer and 7-fer for fun) as they are in England which is why home performances don't get the same value for Jadeja as it does for Stokes.

 

Then why don't opposition spinners do well consistently. Even in England, Anderson and Broad run riot. Stokes just been bad or not required.

 

If home games are big for Stokes, they are for Jadeja too. Have same parameters.

9 hours ago, Majestic said:

If you watch Kapil and Vettori bat, irrespective of the era they played anyone can guess Kapil was levels ahead as a batsman than Vettori. Kapil also played a lot of matches on flat decks in 80s but his average is low not due to pitches but due to aggressive nature of batting.

 

Same is for Stokes who has played the kind of innings that Jadeja and even Shakib can't really dream of playing like Capetown 2016, Headingley 2019 and Lords 2023.

 

That's just to say he's more aggresive and stroke maker. Just different playing styles.

 

Sehwag produced innings Dravid or even Sachin couldn't. Means nothing.

 

All those innings were on pattas with nothing much for spinners. Lords they didnt have a spinner.

[zen]

An issue with ICF is overzealousness to unnecessarily show Indian cricketers as better! There is not much neutral cricketing perspective at play. 
 

PS on a BD dominated forum, we may hear Sakib is the best ever due to x, y, & z reasons, a similarly pointless exercise. In SL, …, … 

Edited July 4, 2023 by zen