Hardik Pandya vs Irfan Pathan

[vvvslaxman]

56 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Pandya's technique is fine as well, it's just that he doesn't play longer formats and mostly plays T20s and IPL which is why he hasn't been able to cover his technical bases well. Pathan was all format player and was equipped with his technique well.

 

Let me put this way. If Pandya had played in 2000s i doubt he would have been part of the XI as India batted till 7 with plethora of part timers chipping in. Irfan batted at 8 mostly. Imagine Pandya at 8 and as a 6th bowler? Totally useless. Pandya is lucky to be playing in this era where the entire team is full of one-dimensional hacks. Jadeja's ODI career would not have lasted this long in any era. Axar would have never batted at 7 in any other era. THey are lucky to be playing now.

[Majestic]

49 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Let me put this way. If Pandya had played in 2000s i doubt he would have been part of the XI as India batted till 7 with plethora of part timers chipping in. Irfan batted at 8 mostly. Imagine Pandya at 8 and as a 6th bowler? Totally useless. Pandya is lucky to be playing in this era where the entire team is full of one-dimensional hacks. Jadeja's ODI career would not have lasted this long in any era. Axar would have never batted at 7 in any other era. THey are lucky to be playing now.

I think Pandya would have certainly made it to XI because we were in desperate need for an all rounder and Pandya would have solved that misery. Actually India would have picked both Pathan and Pandya in the team.

 

The reason India batted till 7 was because there wasn't quality all rounders or even seam/pace bowlers. Pandya would have been used as third pacer and the other two pacers could have been Zak and alongwith him, there were quite a few folks who were doing well for a small period. Kumble and Bhajji would have been spinners and Pandya batted at 7. Raina would have found it hard to get in because we would have treated the pace all rounder with more bias than a batsman who bowled part time spin.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Majestic

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

I think Pandya would have certainly made it to XI because we were in desperate need for an all rounder and Pandya would have solved that misery. Actually India would have picked both Pathan and Pandya in the team.

 

The reason India batted till 7 was because there wasn't quality all rounders or even seam/pace bowlers. Pandya would have been used as fourth pacer and the other two pacers could have been Zak and alongwith him, there were quite a few folks who were doing well for a small period. Kumble and Bhajji would have been spinners and Pandya batted at 7. Raina would have found it hard to get in because we would have treated the pace all rounder with more bias than a batsman who bowled part time spin.

 

Irfan was an all rounder Agarkar/Zak/Bhajji/Kumble no sluoch with bat.   Sehwag/Tendulkar/Ganguly/Rain/Yuvi all could bowl. THat is 10 bowlers. Why do you need another seamer in this line up? You would rather go with a specialist batsman.

[vvvslaxman]

2000 attack Missed a Shami and Bumrah nothing else.  You can add Kuldeep marginally. That's about it. They didn't miss anything else. 

[Majestic]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Irfan was an all rounder Agarkar/Zak/Bhajji/Kumble no sluoch with bat.   Sehwag/Tendulkar/Ganguly/Rain/Yuvi all could bowl. THat is 10 bowlers. Why do you need another seamer in this line up? You would rather go with a specialist batsman.

Depends on which part of 2000s you are referring. Irfan was top all rounder between 2004-06 averaging 25 with bowl and 25 with bat. Look at this team. Uthappa was batting at 3 and Rohit Sharma debuted at 6. Irfan was no.8 because we lacked a lot of bowling options. Hardik could have easily walked in at 7 and we would have Dravid, Yuvi and MSD between #4-#6. 

 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard_ODI.asp?MatchCode=2736

 

Or if we are looking a little earlier around 2003-04, we were backing Mohammad Kaif at 7 due to his exploits in NatWest final but if we had luxury of all rounder like Pandya, he would have given stiff competition to Kaif and sealed his spot too.

 

https://m.cricbuzz.com/live-cricket-scorecard/5155/pak-vs-ind-1st-odi-india-in-pakistan-odi-series-2004

 

The middle order would have seen Dravid, Yuvi, MSD and Pandya batting together. Pathan would have been #8, Bhajji 9 and the two frontline pacers depending on who is going through a good run.

 

 

[raki05]

22 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Depends on which part of 2000s you are referring. Irfan was top all rounder between 2004-06 averaging 25 with bowl and 25 with bat. Look at this team. Uthappa was batting at 3 and Rohit Sharma debuted at 6. Irfan was no.8 because we lacked a lot of bowling options. Hardik could have easily walked in at 7 and we would have Dravid, Yuvi and MSD between #4-#6. 

 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard_ODI.asp?MatchCode=2736

 

Or if we are looking a little earlier around 2003-04, we were backing Mohammad Kaif at 7 due to his exploits in NatWest final but if we had luxury of all rounder like Pandya, he would have given stiff competition to Kaif and sealed his spot too.

 

https://m.cricbuzz.com/live-cricket-scorecard/5155/pak-vs-ind-1st-odi-india-in-pakistan-odi-series-2004

 

The middle order would have seen Dravid, Yuvi, MSD and Pandya batting together. Pathan would have been #8, Bhajji 9 and the two frontline pacers depending on who is going through a good run.

 

 

One thing i can tell tou i will never remove Raina for Pandya. Raina was out and out match winner with bat in LOI and his batting at no. 7 was always a hit even in cruntch matches. I cant imagine pandya can play an inning like 23 yo Raina playing his first wc against aus in qf and pak in sf . Those 2 inning especially one in sf against pak was better than everything Pandya has played in his 8 years career. So no very few in Indian cricket probably one or 2 on icf only would play Fracture Bandya at 7 ahead of clutch and super gun performer like Raina.

[Majestic]

1 minute ago, raki05 said:

One thing i can tell tou i will never remove Raina for Pandya. Raina was out and out match winner with bat in LOI and his batting at no. 7 was always a hit even in cruntch matches. I cant imagine pandya can play an inning like 23 yo Raina playing his first wc against aus in qf and pak in sf . Those 2 inning especially one in sf against pak was better than everything Pandya has played in his 8 years career. So no very few in Indian cricket probably one or 2 on icf only would play Fracture Bandya at 7 ahead of clutch and super gun performer like Raina.

Raina's breakthrough year was 2008 with the arrival of T20 era and he established himself and became integral member till 2015.

 

By then Dravid and Ganguly were gone. Sehwag and Tendulkar were no longer competent enough to do job with bowl. Yousuf Pathan came into scenes around that time too with a reputation of a big power hitter who could bowl some part time spin. He smashed Nathan McCullum for 4 consecutive sixes in New Zealand but he had very few moments of success. During this time, we also had to fill that one middle order specialist batsman spot in which we tried Rohit first and later Kohli.

 

While Pandya may not have taken his game to next level but he too has been an integral member of the team from 2017 onwards. In LOIs in middle order, he has been more integral and clutch than a KL Rahul or anyone in current setup from last 7-8 years.

 

There was a phase around 2009-10 when both Pathan brothers played in the team so Pandya could have found a place in place of one of them, giving India more depth in bowling. If Pandya would have come around 2005-06, Raina would have find harder to break through simply because of what Pandya was bringing.

[raki05]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

Raina's breakthrough year was 2008 with the arrival of T20 era and he established himself and became integral member till 2015.

 

By then Dravid and Ganguly were gone. Sehwag and Tendulkar were no longer competent enough to do job with bowl. Yousuf Pathan came into scenes around that time too with a reputation of a big power hitter who could bowl some part time spin. He smashed Nathan McCullum for 4 consecutive sixes in New Zealand but he had very few moments of success. During this time, we also had to fill that one middle order specialist batsman spot in which we tried Rohit first and later Kohli.

 

While Pandya may not have taken his game to next level but he too has been an integral member of the team from 2017 onwards. In LOIs in middle order, he has been more integral and clutch than a KL Rahul or anyone in current setup from last 7-8 years.

 

There was a phase around 2009-10 when both Pathan brothers played in the team so Pandya could have found a place in place of one of them, giving India more depth in bowling. If Pandya would have come around 2005-06, Raina would have find harder to break through simply because of what Pandya was bringing.

Pandya would have got exposed in any era in front of Raina. Raina as a pure batter worth much more than Pandya with his mediocre alrounder ability. BTW Raina used to bowl 4-5 overs as an alrounder in most of the matches he was super fit clutch and a gun limited over batter you can always bank on his batting to pay out for the team than pandya mediocre outing with bat and bowl in odis most of the time. I hardly remember a time where pandya has bowled 10 overs in a match, max uou can get from him  is 4-5 overs which even raina can offer and there is no comparison in their batting.Pandya only golden year was 2018-19 where he was good with the bat that too he flopped badly in sf and doing tuk tuk like deer in headlight. BTW what clutch performance pandya has in odis which you rave about. Remind me single inning in 50 over icc tournaments or asia cups where he played back against wall inning and took us home in his 7 years of career. As said before ,Pandya ekka dukka blistering inning only came when situation is hopeless and there is no chance of victories and who the bowler he ws bashing was Fakhar and young Shadab in ct 17 final. Why dint he played same kind of inning in wc 19 sf when score was meagre total even if he would hve played normally we had a chance. People call him clutch has been successfully brainwashed by this fraud pandya who has zero/nadda match winning inning in icc tourney forget qf and sf he dint even have that in league stage, now prove me wrong.

Edited August 26, 2023 by raki05

[raki05]

Pandya is more like Nitish kumar who in absence of strong opposition leader always chosen as chief minister . Not because he is very talented rather he is cunning and fraud and as shabuddin said “Paristhityon ke MukhyaMantri” same way this fraud is Paristhityon ka allrounder.

[Majestic]

20 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Pandya would have got exposed in any era in front of Raina. Raina as a pure batter worth much more than Pandya with his mediocre alrounder ability. BTW Raina used to bowl 4-5 overs as an alrounder in most of the matches he was super fit clutch and a gun limited over batter you can always bank on his batting to pay out for the team than pandya mediocre outing with bat and bowl in odis most of the time. I hardly remember a time where pandya has bowled 10 overs in a match, max uou can get from him  is 4-5 overs which even raina can offer and there is no comparison in their batting.Pandya only golden year was 2018-19 where he was good with the bat that too he flopped badly in sf and doing tuk tuk like deer in headlight. BTW what clutch performance pandya has in odis which you rave about. Remind me single inning in 50 over icc tournaments or asia cups where he played back against wall inning and took us home in his 7 years of career. As said before ,Pandya ekka dukka blistering inning only came when situation is hopeless and there is no chance of victories and who the bowler he ws bashing was Fakhar and young Shadab in ct 17 final. Why dint he played same kind of inning in wc 19 sf when score was meagre total even if he would hve played normally we had a chance. People call him clutch has been successfully brainwashed by this fraud pandya who has zero/nadda match winning inning in icc tourney forget qf and sf he dint even have that in league stage, now prove me wrong.

Bits and pieces in ODIs is perfect for Jadeja.

 

Avg 32@84 with bat and 37 with bowl.

 

Pandya is good enough ( not excellent but just good enough) with avg of 32@113 with bat and 38 with bowl.

 

As for ICC tourneys, he played two of those in ODI format so he performed in one. In T20s, he played well vs England. So, he has done better than rest in that middle order like Jadeja or Rahul or whoever was there.

[raki05]

4 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Bits and pieces in ODIs is perfect for Jadeja.

 

Avg 32@84 with bat and 37 with bowl.

 

Pandya is good enough ( not excellent but just good enough) with avg of 32@113 with bat and 38 with bowl.

 

As for ICC tourneys, he played two of those in ODI format so he performed in one. In T20s, he played well vs England. So, he has done better than rest in that middle order like Jadeja or Rahul or whoever was there.

I am not debating that he will always look better against kind of Rahul and Jadeja who sholdnt be in team at first placce and also he is looking better now as kohli and rohit has lost their charm. But it doesnt mean he can take position of all time proven match winner of the past who had already done something at much younger age which Pandya is still striving for since 7-8 years. It is the pathetic situation of our current lineup which made him look better than what his actual worth is.

[vvvslaxman]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

Depends on which part of 2000s you are referring. Irfan was top all rounder between 2004-06 averaging 25 with bowl and 25 with bat. Look at this team. Uthappa was batting at 3 and Rohit Sharma debuted at 6. Irfan was no.8 because we lacked a lot of bowling options. Hardik could have easily walked in at 7 and we would have Dravid, Yuvi and MSD between #4-#6. 

 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard_ODI.asp?MatchCode=2736

 

Or if we are looking a little earlier around 2003-04, we were backing Mohammad Kaif at 7 due to his exploits in NatWest final but if we had luxury of all rounder like Pandya, he would have given stiff competition to Kaif and sealed his spot too.

 

https://m.cricbuzz.com/live-cricket-scorecard/5155/pak-vs-ind-1st-odi-india-in-pakistan-odi-series-2004

 

The middle order would have seen Dravid, Yuvi, MSD and Pandya batting together. Pathan would have been #8, Bhajji 9 and the two frontline pacers depending on who is going through a good run.

 

 

 

I very much doubt Pandya would be in the scheme of things. Let us not forget Pandya was indeed dropped from the side. He came back into the side after IPL stint.  When he can't find a spot even in this set up where India has zero seam bowling all rounders then how will he find a place in 2000s squad.  He is a bits and pieces player. Never dominated in any department in any time. He is no different from Jaddu.  His ICC ranking clearly tells this

 

Pandya's ODI ranking  history

 

Batting     

 

Current ODI Ranking 71

HIghest ODI Ranking 42

 

Bowling

 

Current ODI Ranking 75

Highet ODI Ranking 30

 

All Rounder

 

Current ODI Ranking 11

Highest ODI Ranking  8

 

For COmparison  IRfan was world no.2 bowler in 2006,  world no.3 All rounder in the same year, world no.47 in  batting.   He was also ranked 4th in Tests. Even if it is for brief period he did achieve a peak. In Pandya's case it is always utility job.  He is no Ben stokes or Shakib Al Hasan. Heck Mitchel Santner, Hasaranga, Chris woakes are ahead of him in the ICC ODI Rankings. He is one eyed king in the land of blind. India has nobody to compete with him. So he is enjoying this free ride.  

 

 

 

[Majestic]

9 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I very much doubt Pandya would be in the scheme of things. Let us not forget Pandya was indeed dropped from the side. He came back into the side after IPL stint.  When he can't find a spot even in this set up where India has zero seam bowling all rounders then how will he find a place in 2000s squad.  He is a bits and pieces player. Never dominated in any department in any time. He is no different from Jaddu.  His ICC ranking clearly tells this

 

Pandya's ODI ranking  history

 

Batting     

 

Current ODI Ranking 71

HIghest ODI Ranking 42

 

Bowling

 

Current ODI Ranking 75

Highet ODI Ranking 30

 

All Rounder

 

Current ODI Ranking 11

Highest ODI Ranking  8

 

For COmparison  IRfan was world no.2 bowler in 2006,  world no.3 All rounder in the same year, world no.47 in  batting.   He was also ranked 4th in Tests. Even if it is for brief period he did achieve a peak. In Pandya's case it is always utility job.  He is no Ben stokes or Shakib Al Hasan. Heck Mitchel Santner, Hasaranga, Chris woakes are ahead of him in the ICC ODI Rankings. He is one eyed king in the land of blind. India has nobody to compete with him. So he is enjoying this free ride.  

 

 

 

Pandya has missed games due to lack of fitness which has affected his ICC rankings. I won't really read into that. If I have to list down the genuine all rounders to come from Asia in ODI history, my list would have :-

 

Kapil

Imran

Jayasuriya 

Razzaq

Afridi

Shakib

 

That's 6 and the likely addition to this list will be Hardik. Rashid, Shadab and Hasaranga are better in T20s but they still have a lot to showcase in ODIs.

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

Pandya has missed games due to lack of fitness which has affected his ICC rankings. I won't really read into that. If I have to list down the genuine all rounders to come from Asia in ODI history, my list would have :-

 

Kapil

Imran

Jayasuriya 

Razzaq

Afridi

Shakib

 

That's 6 and the likely addition to this list will be Hardik. Rashid, Shadab and Hasaranga are better in T20s but they still have a lot to showcase in ODIs.

 

 

Pandya has been playing for 6 years. Irfan pathan in one year entered top 10 ODI ranking in both bowling and all rounder category not to mention he became no.4 ranked Test all rounder.  His injury cannot be offered as an excuse for not reach peak in any department. 

[raki05]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

Pandya has missed games due to lack of fitness which has affected his ICC rankings. I won't really read into that. If I have to list down the genuine all rounders to come from Asia in ODI history, my list would have :-

 

Kapil

Imran

Jayasuriya 

Razzaq

Afridi

Shakib

 

That's 6 and the likely addition to this list will be Hardik. Rashid, Shadab and Hasaranga are better in T20s but they still have a lot to showcase in ODIs.

 

Pandya was always a potential even spending 7 years in international cricket he never dominated a single format even in one stream. Even in t20 he doesnt bowl 4 overs frequently. To play Pandya as an alrounder you have to play another mediocre allrounder or extra bowler to compensate for his bowling which kind of weaken our batting where we tend to play with 5 batters and 2 mediocre allrounder. Had he been true allrounder,  we would have palyed with one extra pure batter always which i believe would have saved us from several collapse we had in icc tourney. 

Edited August 27, 2023 by raki05

[Majestic]

13 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Pandya was always a potential even spending 7 years in international cricket he never dominated a single format even in one stream. Even in t20 he doesnt bowl 4 overs frequently. To play Pandya as an alrounder you have to play another mediocre allrounder or extra bowler to compensate for his bowling which kind of weaken our batting where we tend to play with 5 batters and 2 mediocre allrounder. Had he been true allrounder,  we would have palyed with one extra pure batter always which i believe would have saved us from several collapse we had in icc tourney. 

The World Cup will decide his fate.  He has a lot to prove no doubt but I think he is still a quality player in LOIs. He is  Maxi level maybe because he does more with bowl than Maxi and probably doesn't have as many shots as Maxi with bat.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Majestic

[raki05]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

The World Cup will decide his fate.  He has a lot to prove no doubt but I think he is still a quality player in LOIs. He is  Maxi level maybe because he does more with bowl than Maxi and probably doesn't have as many shots as Maxi with bat.

But Maxi has already won a wc in aus and t20 wc in Asia. Lets see wht Pandya does.

[Suhaan]

4 hours ago, Majestic said:

Pandya has missed games due to lack of fitness which has affected his ICC rankings. I won't really read into that. If I have to list down the genuine all rounders to come from Asia in ODI history, my list would have :-

 

Kapil

Imran

Jayasuriya 

Razzaq

Afridi

Shakib

 

That's 6 and the likely addition to this list will be Hardik. Rashid, Shadab and Hasaranga are better in T20s but they still have a lot to showcase in ODIs.

 

Yuvi too was a capable AR

[Trichromatic]

8 hours ago, Majestic said:

Pandya has missed games due to lack of fitness which has affected his ICC rankings. I won't really read into that. If I have to list down the genuine all rounders to come from Asia in ODI history, my list would have :-

 

Kapil

Imran

Jayasuriya 

Razzaq

Afridi

Shakib

 

That's 6 and the likely addition to this list will be Hardik. Rashid, Shadab and Hasaranga are better in T20s but they still have a lot to showcase in ODIs.

 

How is Shadab Khan not at level (or better) of Pandya?

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

How is Shadab Khan not at level (or better) of Pandya?

ODIs. He is a bit like Jadeja. Bowling avg in 30s and batting stats are 28@84( worse than Jadeja). I do believe his peak is yet to come so let's wait for that.