Irani Trophy, Oct 01 - 05, Rajkot

[Nikhil_cric]

25 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

Siraj hasnt done  anything in tests in india.Here is the list of all indian wicket takes in india in the last 10 years,only umesh and shami have stood  out among pacers 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;orderby=wickets;spanmax1=02+Oct+2023;spanmin1=02+Oct+2013;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

2 pacers who bowl over 130k did well among 6 teams in deodhar and I am the idiot?

 

Lol. Sort that by average for tests in India. Ojha was a chucker and this was before his action was modified. 

 

 

The top 10 has 6 seamers who all had genuine pace bar Bhubaneshwar

 

- Bumrah, Shami, Umesh, Siraj, Ishant all can/could bowl 145 kph. Even bhuvaneshwar has bowled 138 kph in Tests in India. 

 

You said pace is ineffective and only 130 kph works .

 

Pace is even more effective in ODIs as we have seen in the case with the inclusion of someone like Prasidh.

 

Only an idiot or someone who is hell bent on pushing an agenda would say high pace doesn't work in Indian conditions .

 

Take your pick. 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Nikhil_cric

[sandeep]

6 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Why?   You can only trust the system if you have the best playing the best .

 

It's not like the BCCI is going to allow domestic players to go abroad and play leagues 

 

And, they clearly don't rate performers from their own tourneys like VH and Deodhar 

we already have a tiered system in Indian FC cricket.  we don't need to do radical surgery, or blindly copy the Australians.  India is not comparable to any other team out there.  We have 1.4 billion people.  Reducing # of teams will not improve competition, it will reduce opportunities and pathways for potential greats to emerge.   

 

I am not saying current system is perfect - but its a no-brainer to tweak the current setup than it  is to blindly go for a 6 team setup.  Forget India, even for greenbros, where Imran was adamant about doing this - it was an absolute disaster for them given population metrics.  6 team setup is good for Aus or teams like SL.  Not for larger population bases.

Edited October 2, 2023 by sandeep

[MediumPacer]

6 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Lol. Sort that by average for tests in India. Ojha was a chucker and this was before his action was modified. 

 

 

The top 10 has 6 seamers who all had genuine pace bar Bhubaneshwar

 

- Bumrah, Shami, Umesh, Siraj, Ishant all can/could bowl 145 kph. Even bhuvaneshwar has bowled 138 kph in Tests in India. 

 

You said pace is ineffective and only 130 kph works .

 

Pace is even more effective in ODIs as we have seen in the case with the inclusion of someone like Prasidh.

 

Only an idiot or someone who is hell bent on pushing an agenda would say high pace doesn't work in Indian conditions .

 

Take your pick. 

 

Ishant gets 2 wickets per match , bhuvi,shami,bumrah and umesh gets 3 per match and siraj 1 per match and siraj and bumrah have hardly played.

 

and since most of the time they play 2 pacers in a match one can calculate how many of the 20 available wickets these guys take  and how many are left for spinners.

[Nikhil_cric]

10 minutes ago, sandeep said:

we already have a tiered system in Indian FC cricket.  we don't need to do radical surgery, or blindly copy the Australians.  India is not comparable to any other team out there.  We have 1.4 billion people.  Reducing # of teams will not improve competition, it will reduce opportunities and pathways for potential greats to emerge.   

 

I am not saying current system is perfect - but its a no-brainer to tweak the current setup than it  is to blindly go for a 6 team setup.  Forget India, even for greenbros, where Imran was adamant about doing this - it was an absolute disaster for them given population metrics.  6 team setup is good for Aus or teams like SL.  Not for larger population bases.

I'm not asking for Ranji to be disbanded at all. Not even VH. 

 

I want another to run concurrently where the best of these players play against each other.

 

It was not a disaster at all for Pakistan.  They got better coaches , and incentivised enough people in the system to get the best talents out and make QEA and Pakistan Cup much more competitive. 

 

How do you think guys like Saud Shakeel and Abdullah Shafique got through the system to play and be successful in Tests?

 

How do you think Naseem was backed to play Tests ?

 

If you look at their Emerging Asia Cup side, they backed guys who did well in Pakistan Cup  - Saim Ayub,  Tayyab Tahir, Mubasir Khan etc. 

 

Usama Mir is comfortably their best spinner in white ball cricket and he was their best performer in Pakistan Cup as well.

 

Now it's another thing that their selection for the national team backs a few trusted seniors etc .  but these are much better players than the ones the previous system was throwing out. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I'm not asking for Ranji to be disbanded at all. Not even VH. 

 

I want another to run concurrently where the best of these players play against each other.

 

It was not a disaster at all for Pakistan.  They got better coaches , and incentivised enough people in the system to get the best talents out and make QEA and Pakistan Cup much more competitive. 

 

How do you think guys like Saud Shakeel and Abdullah Shafique got through the system to play and be successful in Tests?

 

How do you think Naseem was backed to play Tests ?

 

If you look at their Emerging Asia Cup side, they backed guys who did well in Pakistan Cup  - Saim Ayub,  Tayyab Tahir, Mubasir Khan etc. 

 

Usama Mir is comfortably their best spinner in white ball cricket and he was their best performer in Pakistan Cup as well.

 

Now it's another thing that their selection for the national team backs a few trusted seniors etc .  but these are much better players than the ones the previous system was throwing out. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FC systems is not about identifying short term prospects.  Its about a building a process that keeps generating prospects year after year.  Its about ensuring the game has pathways that can funnel and filter all the way up from local club cricket to the highest level. 

 

If Pakistan disband their legacy FC teams in favor of only 6 domestic teams - that means they are artificially capping the player pool of cricketers who can make a living from the sport to 6 squads of what, 15-17?  That's barely a 100 from a population of 300 million? Its like what cricket was in the 1980s in India.  Not a viable career path unless you make it to the very top.  So it was a disastrous SheikhChilly type cutting off the branch you are sitting on type of move by Imraan. 

 

Just because a couple of players happened to emerge during that time does not in anyway justify the utter stupidity and self-destructive nature of that short-lived change by PCB.  

 

I agree with you  that BCCI should constantly be tweaking and innovating how the cream of top talents in FC cricket compete against each other - but the legacy and historical importance of mechanisms like Irani Trophy, Zonal competition etc shouldn't be underestimated either.   

 

TL:DR  - Indian FC needs a scalpel, not a wrecking ball.

 

[vvvslaxman]

If Indai wants to encourage seamers they have to play on those kind of surfaces. Dharamsala, Mohali. Not at grounds like Rajkot. Credit to Kaverappa taking wickets even here. 

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, MediumPacer said:

Ishant gets 2 wickets per match , bhuvi,shami,bumrah and umesh gets 3 per match and siraj 1 per match and siraj and bumrah have hardly played.

 

and since most of the time they play 2 pacers in a match one can calculate how many of the 20 available wickets these guys take  and how many are left for spinners.

 

In tests in India, Shami has 3.6 wickets per match and Bumrah 3.5 wickets per match, which is pretty good given the fact that they don't get to bowl that many overs per match.  Both have excellent averages and strike rates. 

 

Even Umesh has excellent average and strike rate in tests in India. 

 

Reverse swing is the primary weapon in tests in India and generally speaking, thd quicker pacers are more effective regarding reverse swing. 

 

 

[express bowling]

5 hours ago, sandeep said:

 

FC systems is not about identifying short term prospects.  Its about a building a process that keeps generating prospects year after year.  Its about ensuring the game has pathways that can funnel and filter all the way up from local club cricket to the highest level. 

 

If Pakistan disband their legacy FC teams in favor of only 6 domestic teams - that means they are artificially capping the player pool of cricketers who can make a living from the sport to 6 squads of what, 15-17?  That's barely a 100 from a population of 300 million? Its like what cricket was in the 1980s in India.  Not a viable career path unless you make it to the very top.  So it was a disastrous SheikhChilly type cutting off the branch you are sitting on type of move by Imraan. 

 

Just because a couple of players happened to emerge during that time does not in anyway justify the utter stupidity and self-destructive nature of that short-lived change by PCB.  

 

I agree with you  that BCCI should constantly be tweaking and innovating how the cream of top talents in FC cricket compete against each other - but the legacy and historical importance of mechanisms like Irani Trophy, Zonal competition etc shouldn't be underestimated either.   

 

TL:DR  - Indian FC needs a scalpel, not a wrecking ball.

 

 

 

Ranji Trophy needs to have lesser matches and Zonal FC and List A tournaments must have more matches. 

 

That is the solution. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by express bowling

[Nikhil_cric]

3 hours ago, sandeep said:

 

FC systems is not about identifying short term prospects.  Its about a building a process that keeps generating prospects year after year.  Its about ensuring the game has pathways that can funnel and filter all the way up from local club cricket to the highest level. 

 

If Pakistan disband their legacy FC teams in favor of only 6 domestic teams - that means they are artificially capping the player pool of cricketers who can make a living from the sport to 6 squads of what, 15-17?  That's barely a 100 from a population of 300 million? Its like what cricket was in the 1980s in India.  Not a viable career path unless you make it to the very top.  So it was a disastrous SheikhChilly type cutting off the branch you are sitting on type of move by Imraan. 

 

Just because a couple of players happened to emerge during that time does not in anyway justify the utter stupidity and self-destructive nature of that short-lived change by PCB.  

 

I agree with you  that BCCI should constantly be tweaking and innovating how the cream of top talents in FC cricket compete against each other - but the legacy and historical importance of mechanisms like Irani Trophy, Zonal competition etc shouldn't be underestimated either.   

 

TL:DR  - Indian FC needs a scalpel, not a wrecking ball.

 

So where am I asking for the current pathways to be disbanded?  

 

Let Ranji teams continue to scout and develop talent .  

 

They can act like a feeder system for a proper elite division one of 6 teams if the franchises wish to draw upon that talent pool. 

 

We have to let the free market determine who are the best talents to construct FC/LOI sides and develop them. 

 

Currently ,  the BCCI is completely unaccountable for decisions they make. Neither to the consumers nor the cricketers .

 

There is no incentive for the BCCI to innovate because they are sure the fans will put up with whatever nonsense. 

 

They can't even organise a World Cup without doing it in a haphazard manner and they make ad hoc decisions without looking at any sort of long term plan. 

 

Once, there are franchises who have something at stake, they will be forced to develop the players they think will win them a tournament .

 

Rather than blindly pick based on past performances etc. 

 

 

The current model is an absolute joke .  

 

If your so called elite white ball tournament in Deodhar carries no weightage in terms of selection , then it is better to disband it completely. 

 

Your argument about the PCB is something I can't agree with when even domestic sides implemented certain standards that the previous system clearly did not. 

 

It's not about 1 or 2 players, they have improved a lot. 

 

They were languishing at #9 in the rankings not too long and they reached #1 in the rankings after backing players who have come through the newer system 

 

Also, reached World T20 finals with these players .

 

That too a team like Pakistan who were never known for doing anything of the sort 

 

And you are claiming there was a regression? 

 

I'm not sure that's an accurate statement at all.

 

And it's not just PCB.  CSA's restructuring of the domestic back in the 2000's led to the likes of Steyn and Amla and Faf emerging after they merged a few domestic teams into 6 and franchises them out .

 

There is more evidence that drawing from a smaller , elite talent pool leads to success  than the other way around. 

 

We can have the 32 team Ranji happening concurrently. No problem with that. I'm not asking to cull it. 

 

 

[Sooda]

9 hours ago, MediumPacer said:

6 teams in a country of a billion? it will kill off cricket in india.There is no point trying,even now it's quite hard to be noticed.

 

if anything we need more teams along with better coaching and talent scout and pitches.

 

Dont think so...

 

Fewer matches but between much better teams. The current Duleep trophy sides. 6 Zonal sides playing each other home and way; can have each match in a different venue. It means players are less likely to fill their boots against lesser sides. Dont get rid of Ranji trophy, make it a parrallel feeder tournament into Duleep. 

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

hey can act like a feeder system for a proper elite division one of 6 teams if the franchises wish to draw upon that talent pool. 

Have you not heard of the zonal teams?

 

2 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

We have to let the free market determine who are the best talents to construct FC/LOI sides and develop them. 

 

Currently ,  the BCCI is completely unaccountable for decisions they make. Neither to the consumers nor the cricketers .

 

The sheer naivete of desis who drink the kool-aid of "corporate accountability" is quite something.  Just because you are dissatisfied with the current governance mechanism does not mean that "corporatizing" FC cricket is going to make things better.  In fact, that sort of a shift of incentives would be an absolute nightmare and completely misaligned to the interests of the sport or us fans.  But that's not something most lovers of "free market" are going to allow themselves to understand. And I don't have the inclination to spoon feed this to you.  

 

And the rest of your repeated assertions that somehow the temporary improvement in Pakistani cricket results is a result of the n'th time that Pak FC cricket was "reformed" -is another fabrication that we can just agree to disagree on.  Please feel free to believe whatever floats your boat. 

[Nikhil_cric]

4 hours ago, sandeep said:

Have you not heard of the zonal teams?

 

 

The sheer naivete of desis who drink the kool-aid of "corporate accountability" is quite something.  Just because you are dissatisfied with the current governance mechanism does not mean that "corporatizing" FC cricket is going to make things better.  In fact, that sort of a shift of incentives would be an absolute nightmare and completely misaligned to the interests of the sport or us fans.  But that's not something most lovers of "free market" are going to allow themselves to understand. And I don't have the inclination to spoon feed this to you.  

 

And the rest of your repeated assertions that somehow the temporary improvement in Pakistani cricket results is a result of the n'th time that Pak FC cricket was "reformed" -is another fabrication that we can just agree to disagree on.  Please feel free to believe whatever floats your boat. 

You mean the zonal teams who played in the Duleep and Deodhar Trophy and whose top bowlers were the likes of Kaverappa and Koushik?

 

The same zonal competitions whose performances which even the BCCI completely ignores when it comes to national selection but insists on domestic players playing them regardless?

 

You seem stuck on the corporate accountability side of things. Franchising them out was only an "option"

 

What tweaks do you expect the BCCI to make when they can't even bothered to provide DRS for their proper domestic games ?

 

There is no fabrication from my side. You were the one who asserted that the newer system apparently destroyed their cricket and I asked you to show some evidence for that ?  Apparently , Im not going to get any .

 

Yes, let's agree to disagree on this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MediumPacer]

13 hours ago, Sooda said:

 

Dont think so...

 

Fewer matches but between much better teams. The current Duleep trophy sides. 6 Zonal sides playing each other home and way; can have each match in a different venue. It means players are less likely to fill their boots against lesser sides. Dont get rid of Ranji trophy, make it a parrallel feeder tournament into Duleep. 

That's already there ,but turning ranji into a 2nd class tournament will reduce opportunity for domestic players,in the long run supply chain will dry up and it will be too difficult to make it at domestic level.

[MediumPacer]

14 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

In tests in India, Shami has 3.6 wickets per match and Bumrah 3.5 wickets per match, which is pretty good given the fact that they don't get to bowl that many overs per match.  Both have excellent averages and strike rates. 

 

Even Umesh has excellent average and strike rate in tests in India. 

 

Reverse swing is the primary weapon in tests in India and generally speaking, thd quicker pacers are more effective regarding reverse swing. 

 

 

Bumrah has a grand total of 4 matches and shami 3.6 is the highest among indian pacers.generally we play 2 pacers and 3 spinner ,the pacers pick around 5-7 wickets on average and spinners 13-15 on average .Now tell who are more important.

 

And  against teams like aus,eng,sa we prepare turners,pacers are more used when likes of ban and sl are touring.

[singhvivek141]

Sarfaraz's batting has gone to dogs, either his purple patch is over or he is just not motivated enough.

[MediumPacer]

Now all 10 wickets for spinners ,so spimners have taken 27 of 30 wickets till now.

[Lone Wolf]

Mera Ghanta Gujara gone again for single digits... Bezzt player of spin according to Jhopda & Bakwaskar

[MediumPacer]

37 wickets to spinners,should have picked batsmen instead of pacers.

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said:

Mera Ghanta Gujara gone again for single digits... Bezzt player of spin according to Jhopda & Bakwaskar

 

He is missing his county cricket lol

[vvvslaxman]

Rare twin flop for  Count