Our TM and Selectors should observe what happens when three 140 k+ specialist pacers bowl skilfully in tandem

[Need4Speed]

8 hours ago, LordPrabhzy said:

The fact they are going back to Bhuvi shows that they have no succession plan for a genuin 140K+ pacer to repave Bumrah and Shami in the pipeline

chodu hain saale..

[Need4Speed]

4 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Tbh...no.

If you see the comments below the articles in SM of potential Bhuvi's comeback...most of the folks are commending like "swing king is back" and also cursing why we have selected Prasidh above him. Such comments have likes in hundreds.

 

Some of those fans are even commenting that Bhuvi should have played ahead of Siraj. 

 

I am unable to understand what's the problem people have, either they don't understand cricket and simple repeat whatever cliches our ex cricketers say on their youtube channel...or there is a PR machinery acting in behind.

 

 

aise swing is king ko crease k do kadam aage se stance lekar maara jaata hai..jab pace hi ni hai..he may get batters stumped though lol..

Edited November 9, 2023 by Need4Speed

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, IndiaWC8311 said:

 

There are several other 140+ bowlers who have failed. Umesh, Varun Aaron, Umran Malik (so far) etc

 

The title clearly states " when 140 k+ specialist pacers bowl skilfully ".

 

If a 140 k+ pacer isn't skilful yet but still young then develop him. If he isn't skilful by age 28 to 30 then ignore him. 

 

And pick those who are more skilful among the 140 k+ pacers. 

 

But if almost all the newer picks are bowling 128 k to 138 k then they will never reach the vicious level of the current 3. .

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Suhaan said:

BCCI must first improve the pitches keeping in mind SENA tours and getting ready for WC in SA

Till the time it doesn't happen I don't see them look beyond usual suspects

Big time,pitches need to improve

Thes guys are not getting the purchase out of surfaces they should get

I want these newcomers to have basic idea of fast bowling on good pitches,the learning curve gets short and we have a bunch which can serve us long

 

 

Very important point bro.

 

Especially the " learning curve becomes shorter " part. 

[tapandrun]

--

Edited November 9, 2023 by tapandrun

[vishalvirsingh]

13 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Only if he is very tall and gets,steep bounce. 

130k to 135k pace and with steep bounce is also manageable by batsmen now a days. On pitches where there is swing .. only on those pitches bhuvi should be played as 4th pacer, else no.. he does not fit in.

Just see prasidh n siraj is getting bounce at 145k and swing bowlers gets swing in first 5 overs only with new ball.

 

There is no doubt that swing is effective when it's 140k+... See siraj n shammi.. boom does not swing much so he gets less wickets . Siraj is skilled and shammi ball ki seam pe dalta hain with perfect line length consistently around 140k

[tapandrun]

1 hour ago, vishalvirsingh said:

130k to 135k pace and with steep bounce is also manageable by batsmen now a days. On pitches where there is swing .. only on those pitches bhuvi should be played as 4th pacer, else no.. he does not fit in.

Just see prasidh n siraj is getting bounce at 145k and swing bowlers gets swing in first 5 overs only with new ball.

 

There is no doubt that swing is effective when it's 140k+... See siraj n shammi.. boom does not swing much so he gets less wickets . Siraj is skilled and shammi ball ki seam pe dalta hain with perfect line length consistently around 140k

The problem with swing below 140 kmph is that it start swinging too early and for a top order batter its easy to predict the line.

 

This is where Pak bowlers of the past and now are good at is bowling swing at high pace, ball does not get much air time and swings late close to batter when he has less time to predict the line.

 

Same reason why reverse swing is effective with high pace only, once it starts reversing and bowler does not have much pace and their is enough of air time  for the ball,its easier for batter to predict the line.

 

Simranjeet (CSK) in that 1 IPL season he played looked good swing at high pace, looked like he has natural out-swing (which is v.good to have),if he can develop in-swing at similar pace he will be good addition to Ind team, do not think there is anybody else in Ind who is swinging at 140+ kmph

Edited November 10, 2023 by tapandrun

[singhvivek141]

9 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

The problem with swing below 140 kmph is that it start swinging too early and for a top order batter its easy to predict the line.

True...yesterday Boult was bowling fast and due to that even a slight bit of movement was tough for the batters.

Before yesterday, he was going through lot of runs because he was trundling and not bowling quick.

 

That's a big difference between Southee & Boult, Southee often gets more swing, is more accurate & taller as well but as he operate in 127-132 range, he is too slow to cause any discomfort. 

While Boult when in rhythm clocks 135-143 and hence can cause more damage with the new ball. 

 

135+ should be minimum criteria for any pacer..unless they are 6.5 or above or are a very good batter.

Pacers who are shorter than 5.11 must be able to hit 140+ speeds to compensate for the lack of bounce.

 

[singhvivek141]

10 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

The title clearly states " when 140 k+ specialist pacers bowl skilfully ".

 

If a 140 k+ pacer isn't skilful yet but still young then develop him. If he isn't skilful by age 28 to 30 then ignore him. 

 

And pick those who are more skilful among the 140 k+ pacers. 

 

But if almost all the newer picks are bowling 128 k to 138 k then they will never reach the vicious level of the current 3. .

Arshdeep, Harshal & Mukesh are prime examples..all 3 when putting extra effort can clock 138-139 ( Arsh & Harsh can clock 142-143 as well)..but they can't sustain that pace and hence will revert back to 128-134.

 

Once the ball stops moving, all 3 of them look innocus & confused on what to do next. Arshdeep has yorkers but that can only stop the runs, Harshal's slower ones can deceive the batters but that's not a sustainable approach...bouncers is out of question because batters will smash any short of length delivery bowled at 130k...things are worse for Mukesh as he is short as well.

 

 

[express bowling]

40 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Arshdeep, Harshal & Mukesh are prime examples..all 3 when putting extra effort can clock 138-139 ( Arsh & Harsh can clock 142-143 as well)..but they can't sustain that pace and hence will revert back to 128-134.

 

Once the ball stops moving, all 3 of them look innocus & confused on what to do next. Arshdeep has yorkers but that can only stop the runs, Harshal's slower ones can deceive the batters but that's not a sustainable approach...bouncers is out of question because batters will smash any short of length delivery bowled at 130k...things are worse for Mukesh as he is short as well.

 

 

A pacer should be judged after taking into account any reduction in pace after an injury. 

 

A Bumrah came back after a long injury induced break bowling 135 k to 143 k straight away and that is still good pace which troubles batters. And he is crossing 147 k now.  Prasidh crossed 145 k in his 1st comeback match. These are the kind of quicks we need. 

 

While a Natarajan looked very innocuous bowling 127 k to 135 k after his injury, that too from a much lower release point. compared to Prasidh and Bumrah. 

 

We have such a large pool of sufficiently to highly skilful 140 k+ quicks that there is no need to go down to the Mukeshes and Unadkats. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by express bowling

[prudent_kreeda]

On 11/9/2023 at 5:01 AM, Khota said:

Bhuvi is not all that bad. I agree with OP 100% but a question to the OP? Someone with 130 and accuracy would be very lethal too.

 

I am glad Hardik and Shardul are not playing.

Bhuvi Lethal where ?

In Test matches - Not at all playing.

T20 - First 2 overs max. agree .  At death - only option he has slower balls , Knuckle balls . What surprise he has when normal pace itself 128-132 by bowling slower ones . 

T50 - Where he will hide after 3 overs with new ball.  Even in 1st PP - has a very poor wicket taking record.  

[prudent_kreeda]

On 11/9/2023 at 7:48 PM, tapandrun said:

The problem with swing below 140 kmph is that it start swinging too early and for a top order batter its easy to predict the line.

 

This is where Pak bowlers of the past and now are good at is bowling swing at high pace, ball does not get much air time and swings late close to batter when he has less time to predict the line.

 

Same reason why reverse swing is effective with high pace only, once it starts reversing and bowler does not have much pace and their is enough of air time  for the ball,its easier for batter to predict the line.

 

Simranjeet (CSK) in that 1 IPL season he played looked good swing at high pace, looked like he has natural out-swing (which is v.good to have),if he can develop in-swing at similar pace he will be good addition to Ind team, do not think there is anybody else in Ind who is swinging at 140+ kmph

 

Swing is not the only option. In fact seam movement equally deadly and it is easier for 140+ K bowlers to achieve seam movement with control than Swing. At that pace  it requires just 2-3 inch of deviation to cause havoc if line & length is good most of time coupled with shorter stuff and yorkers.  

Hence feel we have at least 4-5 good young prospects even now in india if they improve quickly .

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, prudent_kreeda said:

 

Swing is not the only option. In fact seam movement equally deadly and it is easier for 140+ K bowlers to achieve seam movement with control than Swing. At that pace  it requires just 2-3 inch of deviation to cause havoc if line & length is good most of time coupled with shorter stuff and yorkers.  

Hence feel we have at least 4-5 good young prospects even now in india if they improve quickly .

 

 

Very true.

 

Seam movement and bounce, combined with 140 k+ pace, is more easily achievable and easy to control than swing.

 

With seam movement we get higher pace usually, more accuracy, more bounce and a much higher % of occurrence compared to swing. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by express bowling

[Khota]

6 hours ago, prudent_kreeda said:

Bhuvi Lethal where ?

In Test matches - Not at all playing.

T20 - First 2 overs max. agree .  At death - only option he has slower balls , Knuckle balls . What surprise he has when normal pace itself 128-132 by bowling slower ones . 

T50 - Where he will hide after 3 overs with new ball.  Even in 1st PP - has a very poor wicket taking record.  

May not be as good as current breed but was next up in line.

[Need4Speed]

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Very true.

 

Seam movement and bounce, combined with 140 k+ pace, is more easily achievable and easy to control than swing.

 

With seam movement we get higher pace usually, more accuracy, more bounce and a much higher % of occurrence compared to swing. 

seam is more dangerous than swing for me..unless its late swing with pace...

good batsmen can make adjustments against swing if its spotted early..but seam wont give you enough time..

also depending upon the skills..sometimes bowlers can extract seam movement even in the middle overs..and you can get it with even back of a length..unlike in case of swing where you mostly have to pitch it up..

 

I am no bowling expert but those are my observations..

Edited November 12, 2023 by Need4Speed

[saneindian]

Tweak the title a little bit "...what happens when three 140 k+ skillful specialist pacers bowl skillfully in tandem"

 

The pre-requisite is skillful bowlers who bowl 140+. Most of our young pacers who can 140+ are some ways away from being at the required level of 'skillful', primarily because of lack of FC/domestic cricket. Ideally with that pace alone, they should be blowing away weaker domestic oppositions. But even that is not happening. It can;t just be about bad pitches or disinterested coaches, as seems to be the discussion most of the times on the pace bowlers thread.

 

Good thing is many of them, are in 21-23 years range, with a full FC season and some A cricket, hopefully a couple from this pool can be ready for international cricket, in case of Umran and Tyagi, re-ready for international cricket. 

[express bowling]

21 minutes ago, saneindian said:

Tweak the title a little bit "...what happens when three 140 k+ skillful specialist pacers bowl skillfully in tandem"

 

The ENGLISH spelling for someone who has skills is " Skilful " and NOT  " Skillful ".   

[express bowling]

37 minutes ago, saneindian said:

 

The pre-requisite is skillful bowlers who bowl 140+. Most of our young pacers who can 140+ are some ways away from being at the required level of 'skillful', primarily because of lack of FC/domestic cricket. Ideally with that pace alone, they should be blowing away weaker domestic oppositions. But even that is not happening. It can;t just be about bad pitches or disinterested coaches, as seems to be the discussion most of the times on the pace bowlers thread.

 

Good thing is many of them, are in 21-23 years range, with a full FC season and some A cricket, hopefully a couple from this pool can be ready for international cricket, in case of Umran and Tyagi, re-ready for international cricket. 

 

 

Mayank Yadav has blown away oppositions in List A with 28 wickets from just 12 List A games.  And has been economical and wicket taking in T20s.

 

Harshit Rana has 28 wickets from 7 FC matches. Average 26 snd SR of 39. Has been good in.List A too.

 

Prasidh Krishna averages 17.x in FC with 49 wickets from just 11 matches. SR of 37+. And averages 25.6 in ODIs with 29 wickets from just 17 matches.

 

These 3 are bowling skilfully for 2 formats each. 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by express bowling

[tapandrun]

45 minutes ago, saneindian said:

Tweak the title a little bit "...what happens when three 140 k+ skillful specialist pacers bowl skillfully in tandem"

 

The pre-requisite is skillful bowlers who bowl 140+. Most of our young pacers who can 140+ are some ways away from being at the required level of 'skillful', primarily because of lack of FC/domestic cricket. Ideally with that pace alone, they should be blowing away weaker domestic oppositions. But even that is not happening. It can;t just be about bad pitches or disinterested coaches, as seems to be the discussion most of the times on the pace bowlers thread.

 

Good thing is many of them, are in 21-23 years range, with a full FC season and some A cricket, hopefully a couple from this pool can be ready for international cricket, in case of Umran and Tyagi, re-ready for international cricket. 

skills are developed over the time, young bowler need basic ingredients, Bhumrah learnt to bring the ball into left hander couple of years ago, Siraj has only improved in last 1-1.5 years.

 

In Ind cricketing circuit bowlers trade off speed for skills which bites them back at intnl levels as top batters are able to negotiate it and once the injury happens whatever nip/zip they had is also lost.

 

Skills are required but they are developed over time, by learning from own exp. or guidance from others, thats why these younger bowler needs to have game with Bhumrah and Shami and Siraj when they are at their prime.

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by tapandrun

[Rightarmfast]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:31 PM, Khota said:

Bhuvi is not all that bad. I agree with OP 100% but a question to the OP? Someone with 130 and accuracy would be very lethal too.

 

I am glad Hardik and Shardul are not playing.

Can be. Definitely. But why play them when you have a pool of 147/148 k bowlers who are deadly themselves?