Team India extend world record to 17 consecutive test series wins on home soil

[Gollum]

16 hours ago, BlueBlood said:

Magnus Carlsen has mentioned many times and even people who have analyzed his game carefully that his secret to success is that he does lots of cardio workouts and meditation to be physically fit.

 

The benefit he gets is that in long tournaments where players have already played for several hours and multiple days, in the finals, where it really matters a lot of players lose focus and get jittery due to tiredness. This forces them to make mistakes and they lose.

 

Magnus is a legend at this where he never makes mistakes even in game 5 of a final even when it's blitz chess even when has has played for 4+ hours that day.

 

Players like Pragyananda although supremely talented, generally never end up becoming ATG in Chess for extended periods of time like Magnus for exactly this reason.

Magnus Carlsen is an outlier, he is like an Usain Bolt, Jahangir Khan or Khabib. Even the best players from USA, Russia, France, Germany, China, Hungary, Poland, Uzbekistan, Iran get crushed by him. So I didn't understand your post about lack of fitness, focus (?), malnutrition etc applicable to Indian players. Do we have data to quantify these things....our youngsters do just fine compared to best of the world except Magnus, and even the West may not produce another Magnus for the next 100 years.

 

And coaching system? Of course Magnus has the best coaches at his disposal because he can afford them, heck he poached the Russian Dubov, a close friend of Russian title contender Nepo to be his second for the WCC and Russians could do nothing about it...money talks . But Indian coaching today is well reputed, particularly when it comes to making GMs, and taking them to 2700, ours and Uzbek coaches are the best in this regard. Of course not many have experience of taking players beyond that level, but that will slowly come, a country like Russia has more coaches curated specifically for the top guys, because of legacy reasons.

16 hours ago, BlueBlood said:

Look at Vishy Anand, someone who is supremely talented but under-achieved to his potential because of his lack of fitness both mentally and physically in long tournaments.

Sure Vishy wasn't as fit as Kasparov or Carlsen, but his underachievement wasn't because of that. 

 

Even Russian greats (also nationalists who tend to overrate their already formidable chess legacy) like Kramnik and Grischuk regard Vishy as the greatest talent of all time. Recently, Carlsen in a YT interview gave himself 6/10 in talent department and Vishy 9/10. 

 

The thing is Vishy was India's 1st GM that too at a late age of almost 19, his peers in India were non-existent. Most of India's top players then were 1800-2000, Thipsay was 2200. Vishy had to figure everything out himself, in the 70s and 80s we didn't have powerful chess engines or coaching like we have today, even chess literature was in Russian. Kasparov is just 5 years elder to Vishy, at the age of 7 Garry was in a special USSR school for gifted chess prodigies, by the age of 10 he was in Botvinnik's school. Botvinnik was the patriarch of Soviet chess, a legendary world champion in the 1960s, the Dronacharya/Socrates/Plato (I mean GOAT coach or teacher) of chess, he handpicked a 10-11 year old Garry and personally trained him. Garry was surrounded by the best young players of USSR, trained and guided by Botvinnik (head coach, father like figure), Tal (tactics, also his closest mentor and biggest supporter in the matches against the establishment guy Karpov), Smyslov (endgame), Taimanov (openings, also the guy who introduced Garry to his present wife Daria, also one of the GOAT pianists, remarkable man who passed away few years back in his 90s) etc....and just like that I named 5 world champions and one candidate in that one line, hope people understand what Anand was up against. All this while Anand was figuring out everything himself, and since he didn't have any coach (it was treason for USSR coaches to work with outsiders and the few options he had in the West, he couldn't afford them due to lack of sponsors) he developed his own unique style somewhat counterintuitive to confuse the coached guys (only elite player in chess history who prefers knight to bishop, today's engines disagree with him, Morezovich moves the knight as well as Vishy but doesn't actively prefer it over bishop) but for most parts pragmatic and original. Openings and endgames can only be studied under proper trainers, so Vishy naturally was weak in them, till his mid 20s he knew next to nothing about openings and played endgames like a noob, but in middlegames he was magical, greatest in chess history and even today he is no weaker at that than a much younger Carlsen. But his game was never fully developed unlike Garry's and even his mental side wasn't that good, of course Kasparov had a state appointed personalized psychologist with him, Nikitn (who also was a GM) 24x7 since his teen days staying at his house, these things are unthinkable in 1980s India, heck even today's India....for USSR the status of chess champion was top of the agenda, crucial for their propaganda against intellectually inferior decadent West. 

 

So Vishy somehow became a GM and within 2 years of that a regular in candidates. By the age of 26 even played a world championship title against Garry. But his flaws couldn't be completely removed, while he eventually improved and became a master in openings (today is regarded as the third greatest theoretician of all time behind Kasparov and Kramnik), his endgame technique was weird (sidenote, GM Shipov came up with a funny saying in Russian: Vishy plays the opening like a book, middlegame like a magician and endgame like a lawn mower). He used to rely on fortresses (still does, Carlsen ribs him often about this in post game PCs) and deception instead of sound technique, Mark Dvoretsky (world's greatest endgame trainer) worked with him in the 90s but couldn't help him improve, in his words it was his greatest failure as a coach....reason is not that Vishy wasn't receptive or a hard worker, it was because those things were so hardwired into his system since his formative years that he could never correct them....Dvoretsky managed to make Topalov a competent endgame specialist but Topalov being from Bulgaria was better coached in his younger years. Almost all these elites became GMs by 15-16 and maximum improvement happens by early 20s, Anand missed that bus as he was a late developer, again a victim of circumstance. Anyway Carlsen exploited this hole in Anand's game ruthlessly (especially rook and pawn endgame), age gap was also too big and in their 2 title matches, Anand was twice as old as Carlsen and still managed to give Carlsen a scare in Sochi, that was Carlsen at his peak......after 2012-14 Carlsen never reached that height, check his ratings and supertournament victories list. Carlsen of 2016 (Karjakin) was terrible, 2018 (Caruana) just ok, before improving in 21. Sochi Anand would have beaten New York Carlsen. 

 

Anyway another reason for Anand's underperformance was his mentality. But again, he was an Indian from our worst years (economically), inferiority complex and meekness were the norm, there was a sense of hopelessness throughout the country, how could he be unaffected by it? Not helped by the fact that all his opponents were from Soviet Union (even Shirov, Gelfand, Ivanchuk etc, were in USSR that time). And the Soviets had a habit of making outsiders feel unwelcome, ganging up against external threats (including rigging tournament games to ensure one of their own always won). The only 2 outside threats to USSR chess were Bobby Fischer and later Anand, Larsen was never a WCC contender!!!!!! And we saw what happened to Fischer's mental health, quit right after beating Spassky. Spassky anyway was a gentleman, the guys Vishy was up against Karpov, Kasparov were not just way stronger but also cutthroat assholes, hostile, one may even say racist especially Karpov. FIDE led by the Kremlin loyalist Illyumzhinov too favored the Russians blindly, case in point Anand having to play a brutal 128 game knockout event in Netherlands and within 48 hours a match against well rested Karpov (his political life deserves a separate post, including his role in current Ukraine war) in Lausanne, Switzerland. Anand meekly accepted these injustices instead of protesting, but again AICF was a joke back then, India had lack of self esteem, we were not confident like we are now.

 

Carlsen had no mental baggage, born in the post Soviet era that too in a rich/developed country like Norway, internet age, trained with computers and excellent trainers since childhood (Norway had 10 GMs before Carlsen and GM Adgestein hand held Carlsen since he was a child), generous sponsorship and Norwegian social security, confident even cocky because of his origin. Kasparov coached him when he was a teenager, for full 2 years where he passed on his experience (and opening knowledge) to play Anand, Kramnik....of course Kasparov had personal issues with Vlad/Vishy and wanted a Western world champion. Magnus is one of the GOAT talents (personally put him below Morphy, Capa, Anand) but much like Kasparov, things fell in the right place for him at the right time, so he could maximize his potential. 

 

Thing is origin story of Kasparov/Carlsen is much much different than Vishy's....think about it, Kasparov getting coached in his childhood by Botvinnik, Carlsen by Kasparov (with open access to Kasparov's opening repertoire, one of the most closely held secrets and brahmastara like weapon, 40 years worth of work featuring top minds of USSR and Garry/Botvinnik etc...something that accelerated Carlsen's growth in unimaginable ways), Anand all alone in his journey. They were more privileged and that was the main reason they ended up in the GOAT race while Vishy will be in the 5-10 race (not top 4 in terms of career achievements, unfortunately). Fitness is a minor thing in comparison...talking about fitness, it didn't help Kortchnoi against Karpov in their 2 title clashes, see how the defector prepared for those matches, there is an interesting documentary also. 

 

But still damn proud of what Vishy managed, being the first GM of a country and also a world champion, it is never going to be repeated again. Put other greats in 1970s Madras, I don't know what they would have done. But it is a scary prospect imagining an 8 year old Vishy getting enrolled in Botvinnik's school under the legendary master's personal tutelage.  Many may feel he wasn't mentally a beast or hard working, but remember this is a guy who kept trying and became the oldest world champ at the age of 37, and achieved his peak at the age of 41. Today at the age of 55 he is still in top 10....Kasparov's rating is protected but based on his rapid/blitz games in St Louis (including against Anand) he is a 2600ish player at max. All those who were peers of Anand today are struggling to be in top 100, Svidler believes Anand can be top 10 even in his 60s and a WCC contender, even though he may not be motivated at this stage of his life. That speaks volumes about the man's greatness. 

 

Sorry for the long post, and digressions. I know this essay may lack coherence for most part, but was forced to post this to clear some misunderstandings about these legendary chess players. 

Edited March 11 by Gollum

[sensible-indian]

10 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Magnus Carlsen is an outlier, he is like an Usain Bolt, Jahangir Khan or Khabib. Even the best players from USA, Russia, France, Germany, China, Hungary, Poland, Uzbekistan, Iran get crushed by him. So I didn't understand your post about lack of fitness, focus (?), malnutrition etc applicable to Indian players. Do we have data to quantify these things....our youngsters do just fine compared to best of the world except Magnus, and even the West may not produce another Magnus for the next 100 years.

 

And coaching system? Of course Magnus has the best coaches at his disposal because he can afford them, heck he poached the Russian Dubov, a close friend of Russian title contender Nepo to be his second for the WCC and Russians could do nothing about it...money talks . But Indian coaching today is well reputed, particularly when it comes to making GMs, and taking them to 2700, ours and Uzbek coaches are the best in this regard. Of course not many have experience of taking players beyond that level, but that will slowly come, a country like Russia has more coaches curated specifically for the top guys, because of legacy reasons.

Sure Vishy wasn't as fit as Kasparov or Carlsen, but his underachievement wasn't because of that. 

 

Even Russian greats (also nationalists who tend to overrate their already formidable chess legacy) like Kramnik and Grischuk regard Vishy as the greatest talent of all time. Recently, Carlsen in a YT interview gave himself 6/10 in talent department and Vishy 9/10. 

 

The thing is Vishy was India's 1st GM that too at a late age of almost 19, his peers in India were non-existent. Most of India's top players then were 1800-2000, Thipsay was 2200. Vishy had to figure everything out himself, in the 70s and 80s we didn't have powerful chess engines or coaching like we have today, even chess literature was in Russian. Kasparov is just 5 years elder to Vishy, at the age of 7 Garry was in a special USSR school for gifted chess prodigies, by the age of 10 he was in Botvinnik's school. Botvinnik was the patriarch of Soviet chess, a legendary world champion in the 1960s, the Dronacharya/Socrates/Plato (I mean GOAT coach or teacher) of chess, he handpicked a 10-11 year old Garry and personally trained him. Garry was surrounded by the best young players of USSR, trained and guided by Botvinnik, Tal (tactics), Smyslov (endgame), Taimanov etc. All this while Anand was figuring out everything himself, and since he didn't have any coach (it was treason for USSR coaches to work with outsiders and the few options he had in the West, he couldn't afford them due to lack of sponsors) he developed his own style often counterintuitive, pragmatic and original. Openings and endgames can only be studied under proper trainers, so Vishy naturally was weak in them, till his mid 20s he knew next to nothing about openings and played endgames like a noob, but in middlegames he was magical, greatest in chess history and even today he is no weaker at that than a much younger Carlsen. But his game was never fully developed unlike Garry's and even his mental side wasn't that good, of course Kasparov had a state appointed personalized psychologist with him, Nikitn (who also was a GM) 24x7 since his teen days staying at his house, these things are unthinkable in 1980s India, heck even today's India....for USSR the status of chess champion was top of the agenda, crucial for their propaganda against intellectually inferior decadent West. 

 

So Vishy somehow became a GM and within 2 years of that a regular in candidates. By the age of 26 even played a world championship title against Garry. But his flaws couldn't be completely removed, while he eventually improved and became a master in openings (today is regarded as the third greatest theoretician of all time behind Kasparov and Kramnik), his endgame technique was weird (sidenote, GM Shipov came up with a funny saying in Russian: Vishy plays the opening like a book, middlegame like a magician and endgame like a lawn mower). He used to rely on fortresses and deception instead of sound technique, Mark Dvoretsky (world's greatest endgame trainer) worked with him in the 90s but couldn't help him improve, in his words it was his greatest failure as a coach....reason is not that Vishy wasn't receptive or a hard worker, it was because those things were so hardwired into his system since his formative years that he could never correct them....Dvoretsky managed to make Topalov a competent endgame specialist but Topalov being from Bulgaria was better coached in his younger years. Almost all these elites became GMs by 15-16 and maximum improvement happens by early 20s, Anand missed that bus as he was a late developer, again a victim of circumstance. Anyway Carlsen exploited hole in Anand's game ruthlessly (especially rook and pawn endgame), age gap was also too big and in their 2 title matches, Anand was twice as old as Carlsen and still managed to give Carlsen a scare in Sochi, that was Carlsen at his peak......after 2012-14 Carlsen never reached that height, check his ratings and supertournament victories list. Carlsen of 2016 (Karjakin) was terrible, 2018 (Caruana) just ok, before improving in 21. Sochi Anand would have beaten New York Carlsen. 

 

Anyway another reason for Anand's underperformance was his mentality. But again, he was an Indian from our worst years (economically), inferiority complex and meekness were the norm, there was a sense of hopelessness. Not helped by the fact that all his opponents were from Soviet Union (even Gelfand, Ivanchuk etc, were in USSR that time). And the Soviets had a habit of making outsiders feel unwelcome, ganging up against external threats (including rigging tournament games to ensure one of their own always one). The only 2 outside threats to USSR chess were Bobby Fischer and later Anand, Larsen was never a WCC contender!!!!!! And we saw what happened to Fischer's mental health, quit right after beating Spassky. Spassky anyway was a gentleman, the guys Vishy was up against Karpov, Kasparov were assholes, hostile, one may even say racist especially Karpov. FIDE too favored the Russians blindly, case in point Anand having to play a brutal 128 game knockout event in Netherlands and within 48 hours a match against well rested Karpov in Lausanne, Switzerland. Anand meekly accepted these injustices instead of protesting, but again AICF was a joke back then, India had lack of self esteem, we were not confident like we are now.

 

Carlsen had no mental baggage, born in the post Soviet era, internet age, trained with computers and best trainers since childhood (Norway had 10 GMs before Carlsen and GM Adgestein hand held Carlsen since he was a child), generous sponsorship and Norwegian social security, confident even cocky because of his origin. Kasparov coached him when he was a teenager, for full 2 years where he passed on his experience to play Anand, Kramnik....of course Kasparov had personal issues with Vlad/Vishy and wanted a Western world champion. Magnus is one of the GOAT talents (personally put him below Morphy, Capa, Anand) but much like Kasparov, things fell in the right place for him at the right time, so he could maximize his potential. 

 

Thing is origin story of Kasparov/Carlsen is much much different than Vishy's. They were more privileged and that was the main reason they ended up in the GOAT race while Vishy will be in the 5-10 race (not top 4 in terms of career achievements, unfortunately). Fitness is a minor thing in comparison...talking about fitness, it didn't help Kortchnoi against Karpov in their 2 games, see how the defector prepared for those matches, there is an interesting documentary also. 

 

But still damn proud of what Vishy managed, being the first GM of a country and also a world champion, it is never going to be repeated again. Put other greats in 1970s Madras, I don't know what they would have done. But it is a scary prospect imagining an 8 year old Vishy getting enrolled in Botvinnik's school under the legendary master's personal tutelage.  Many may feel he wasn't mentally a beast or hard working, but remember this is a guy who kept trying and became the oldest world champ at the age of 37, and achieved his peak at the age of 41. Today at the age of 55 he is still in top 10....Kasparov's rating is protected but based on his rapid/blitz games in St Louis (including against Anand) he is a 2600ish player at max. All those who were peers of Anand today are struggling to be in top 100, Svidler believes Anand can be top 10 even in his 60s and a WCC contender, even though he may not be motivated at this stage of his life. That speaks volumes about the man's greatness. 

 

Sorry for the long post, and digressions. I know this essay may lack coherence for most, but was forced to post this to clear some misunderstandings about these legendary chess players. 

Dude thank you soooo much for posting it.

 

I am going to screenshot and save these posts. 

[Vijy]

19 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Magnus Carlsen is an outlier, he is like an Usain Bolt, Jahangir Khan or Khabib. Even the best players from USA, Russia, France, Germany, China, Hungary, Poland, Uzbekistan, Iran get crushed by him. So I didn't understand your post about lack of fitness, focus (?), malnutrition etc applicable to Indian players. Do we have data to quantify these things....our youngsters do just fine compared to best of the world except Magnus, and even the West may not produce another Magnus for the next 100 years.

 

And coaching system? Of course Magnus has the best coaches at his disposal because he can afford them, heck he poached the Russian Dubov, a close friend of Russian title contender Nepo to be his second for the WCC and Russians could do nothing about it...money talks . But Indian coaching today is well reputed, particularly when it comes to making GMs, and taking them to 2700, ours and Uzbek coaches are the best in this regard. Of course not many have experience of taking players beyond that level, but that will slowly come, a country like Russia has more coaches curated specifically for the top guys, because of legacy reasons.

Sure Vishy wasn't as fit as Kasparov or Carlsen, but his underachievement wasn't because of that. 

 

Even Russian greats (also nationalists who tend to overrate their already formidable chess legacy) like Kramnik and Grischuk regard Vishy as the greatest talent of all time. Recently, Carlsen in a YT interview gave himself 6/10 in talent department and Vishy 9/10. 

 

The thing is Vishy was India's 1st GM that too at a late age of almost 19, his peers in India were non-existent. Most of India's top players then were 1800-2000, Thipsay was 2200. Vishy had to figure everything out himself, in the 70s and 80s we didn't have powerful chess engines or coaching like we have today, even chess literature was in Russian. Kasparov is just 5 years elder to Vishy, at the age of 7 Garry was in a special USSR school for gifted chess prodigies, by the age of 10 he was in Botvinnik's school. Botvinnik was the patriarch of Soviet chess, a legendary world champion in the 1960s, the Dronacharya/Socrates/Plato (I mean GOAT coach or teacher) of chess, he handpicked a 10-11 year old Garry and personally trained him. Garry was surrounded by the best young players of USSR, trained and guided by Botvinnik, Tal (tactics), Smyslov (endgame), Taimanov etc. All this while Anand was figuring out everything himself, and since he didn't have any coach (it was treason for USSR coaches to work with outsiders and the few options he had in the West, he couldn't afford them due to lack of sponsors) he developed his own style often counterintuitive, pragmatic and original. Openings and endgames can only be studied under proper trainers, so Vishy naturally was weak in them, till his mid 20s he knew next to nothing about openings and played endgames like a noob, but in middlegames he was magical, greatest in chess history and even today he is no weaker at that than a much younger Carlsen. But his game was never fully developed unlike Garry's and even his mental side wasn't that good, of course Kasparov had a state appointed personalized psychologist with him, Nikitn (who also was a GM) 24x7 since his teen days staying at his house, these things are unthinkable in 1980s India, heck even today's India....for USSR the status of chess champion was top of the agenda, crucial for their propaganda against intellectually inferior decadent West. 

 

So Vishy somehow became a GM and within 2 years of that a regular in candidates. By the age of 26 even played a world championship title against Garry. But his flaws couldn't be completely removed, while he eventually improved and became a master in openings (today is regarded as the third greatest theoretician of all time behind Kasparov and Kramnik), his endgame technique was weird (sidenote, GM Shipov came up with a funny saying in Russian: Vishy plays the opening like a book, middlegame like a magician and endgame like a lawn mower). He used to rely on fortresses and deception instead of sound technique, Mark Dvoretsky (world's greatest endgame trainer) worked with him in the 90s but couldn't help him improve, in his words it was his greatest failure as a coach....reason is not that Vishy wasn't receptive or a hard worker, it was because those things were so hardwired into his system since his formative years that he could never correct them....Dvoretsky managed to make Topalov a competent endgame specialist but Topalov being from Bulgaria was better coached in his younger years. Almost all these elites became GMs by 15-16 and maximum improvement happens by early 20s, Anand missed that bus as he was a late developer, again a victim of circumstance. Anyway Carlsen exploited hole in Anand's game ruthlessly (especially rook and pawn endgame), age gap was also too big and in their 2 title matches, Anand was twice as old as Carlsen and still managed to give Carlsen a scare in Sochi, that was Carlsen at his peak......after 2012-14 Carlsen never reached that height, check his ratings and supertournament victories list. Carlsen of 2016 (Karjakin) was terrible, 2018 (Caruana) just ok, before improving in 21. Sochi Anand would have beaten New York Carlsen. 

 

Anyway another reason for Anand's underperformance was his mentality. But again, he was an Indian from our worst years (economically), inferiority complex and meekness were the norm, there was a sense of hopelessness. Not helped by the fact that all his opponents were from Soviet Union (even Gelfand, Ivanchuk etc, were in USSR that time). And the Soviets had a habit of making outsiders feel unwelcome, ganging up against external threats (including rigging tournament games to ensure one of their own always won). The only 2 outside threats to USSR chess were Bobby Fischer and later Anand, Larsen was never a WCC contender!!!!!! And we saw what happened to Fischer's mental health, quit right after beating Spassky. Spassky anyway was a gentleman, the guys Vishy was up against Karpov, Kasparov were not just way stronger but also cutthroat assholes, hostile, one may even say racist especially Karpov. FIDE led by the Kremlin loyalist Illyumzhinov too favored the Russians blindly, case in point Anand having to play a brutal 128 game knockout event in Netherlands and within 48 hours a match against well rested Karpov (his political life deserves a separate post, including his role in current Ukraine war) in Lausanne, Switzerland. Anand meekly accepted these injustices instead of protesting, but again AICF was a joke back then, India had lack of self esteem, we were not confident like we are now.

 

Carlsen had no mental baggage, born in the post Soviet era, internet age, trained with computers and excellent trainers since childhood (Norway had 10 GMs before Carlsen and GM Adgestein hand held Carlsen since he was a child), generous sponsorship and Norwegian social security, confident even cocky because of his origin. Kasparov coached him when he was a teenager, for full 2 years where he passed on his experience to play Anand, Kramnik....of course Kasparov had personal issues with Vlad/Vishy and wanted a Western world champion. Magnus is one of the GOAT talents (personally put him below Morphy, Capa, Anand) but much like Kasparov, things fell in the right place for him at the right time, so he could maximize his potential. 

 

Thing is origin story of Kasparov/Carlsen is much much different than Vishy's....think about it, Kasparov getting coached in his childhood by Botvinnik, Carlsen by Kasparov, Anand all alone in his journey. They were more privileged and that was the main reason they ended up in the GOAT race while Vishy will be in the 5-10 race (not top 4 in terms of career achievements, unfortunately). Fitness is a minor thing in comparison...talking about fitness, it didn't help Kortchnoi against Karpov in their 2 games, see how the defector prepared for those matches, there is an interesting documentary also. 

 

But still damn proud of what Vishy managed, being the first GM of a country and also a world champion, it is never going to be repeated again. Put other greats in 1970s Madras, I don't know what they would have done. But it is a scary prospect imagining an 8 year old Vishy getting enrolled in Botvinnik's school under the legendary master's personal tutelage.  Many may feel he wasn't mentally a beast or hard working, but remember this is a guy who kept trying and became the oldest world champ at the age of 37, and achieved his peak at the age of 41. Today at the age of 55 he is still in top 10....Kasparov's rating is protected but based on his rapid/blitz games in St Louis (including against Anand) he is a 2600ish player at max. All those who were peers of Anand today are struggling to be in top 100, Svidler believes Anand can be top 10 even in his 60s and a WCC contender, even though he may not be motivated at this stage of his life. That speaks volumes about the man's greatness. 

 

Sorry for the long post, and digressions. I know this essay may lack coherence for most part, but was forced to post this to clear some misunderstandings about these legendary chess players. 

great post!

[MediumPacer]

@Gollum  that's some knowledge about vishy

[vvvslaxman]

I agree i am a self-loather too to some extent lol But i won't discredit wins. I just criticize the losses. One has nothing to do with other.

[BlueBlood]

Great post. I still think you underestimate Carlsen's fitness both mentally and physically. His late game skills are purely because of his mental focus and lack of making blunders.

 

Lots of people who studied him give his physical strength along with meditation etc. that he does as singular reason he can consistently win in COVID era where people just capitulated in the bubbles and stress.

 

Even Carlsen's real money is his YouTube and social media presence with Chess.com where he is open to play against anyone. I recall only Kasparov was open to play against any opponent in his prime.

 

I think Pragyananda would have had the same potential but he won't be able to repeat that as Chess has no respect/prestige in India like cricket has and not much money either.

 

It's directly correlated to other sports in Olympics. Nothing to do with politics. PV Sindhu for example comes from a relatively rich family where her father ran a badminton coaching center. If he was not related to the sport, she had no chance progressing further.

 

It's not even a political issue but a cultural one. People are so enamored by cricket players that they don't shower the same accolades to any other achievement other than academic ones. This causes people to capitulate at the international level.

 

I played sports at the state level and could never progress further for exactly this reason. No resources to help elevate to international level unless your family takes it up as a personal mission to throw all the resources at you and even that is not enough at international level.

 

It's much easier to treat sports as a hobby and "study" than it is to take it seriously, fail and be called a loser for life. Imagine sports like running, boxing etc. One injury destroys your career forever and there's no social safety net.

 

This is one area China has done a great job compared to India. Unless country treats it as a pride issue and sets up special schools and institutions, nothing will happen. 

 

I am mighty impressed with Kohli despite the hate he gets and how seriously he took fitness in his prime years investing a ton of his own money in it. It's paying dividends as even today, he can walk into any team in the world at 50% of his form. So many players had careers cut short just because of this one reason.

[Suhaan]

Vishwanathan why you post on cricket here using @Gollum

[velu]

14 hours ago, Suhaan said:

All formats?we need to win some ICC or big series overseas to bring back some of the erstwhile great posters

miss @maniac @velu Anna,  @SK_IH 's

 

i m a buzzy man 

[Gollum]

36 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

Great post. I still think you underestimate Carlsen's fitness both mentally and physically. His late game skills are purely because of his mental focus and lack of making blunders.

 

Lots of people who studied him give his physical strength along with meditation etc. that he does as singular reason he can consistently win in COVID era where people just capitulated in the bubbles and stress.

I am not underestimating Carlsen at all. I rate him very highly, I agree about his physical shape helping him. But many are following similar methods (Caruana is in top physical shape doing crossfit, MVL playing tennis etc), without similar success. Carlsen's talent is on a higher scale and more importantly his career is the result of a favorable coincidence of circumstances as I wrote in my previous post. 

 

One cannot underestimate the effect of having Kasparov coach him in his development years, and giving access to his opening repertoire (Kasparov is the greatest theoretician, always and forever). Opening takes time to improve and Carlsen like all teenagers was weak in that, but in a matter of 2 years he closed the gap with his main rivals Anand/Kramnik and that also coincided with his peak playing strength, stamina, willpower. Usually players gather that kind of knowledge well past their peak (look at Aronian more recently) and it works also, compensating for other weaknesses that are age related....Carlsen peaked in all areas at the same time, in his early 20s. 

 

I can give an analogy from tennis, Federer/Djokovic perfected their service motions only in their 30s, that compensated for their physical decline in ground game, speed, stamina etc. But now imagine Federer of 2007-08 having the 2015 Federer serve (remember 2015 Wimbledon SF against Murray?). Or Djokovic's current serve fitted to his 2015 game. Scary, no? that is what happened to Carlsen, hence my sympathies with Caruana, almost as good (in classical) but not the chosen one because of being 2 years younger and developing later. Garry/sponsors/FIDE opponents needed a Western world champion at that time (can write later about Garry's political compulsions, his run for FIDE presidency etc) and Carlsen was the best candidate, elevated an already superhuman talent to greater heights. Had Garry not coached Carlsen in 2009-10, Carlsen would still have become WC at some point but history of chess would have been a bit different. 

 

You must also realize that what Carlsen achieved last decade is also helping him now. His aura has grown immeasurably, people fear him so much that his errors go unpunished, they play meekly, underestimate their positions just because of who their opponent is etc. He is reaping those benefits now, so many times his accuracy is lesser than his opponent but he ends up winning from lost positions, players blunder in equal positions and make unimaginable blunders for GM level. Kramnik has mentioned this aspect of Carlsen's game so many times. Fischer of 1966-72 had a similar aura. 

36 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

 

Even Carlsen's real money is his YouTube and social media presence with Chess.com where he is open to play against anyone. I recall only Kasparov was open to play against any opponent in his prime.

Internet era is different. Anyway Kasparov was notorious for hiding preparation in his WCC years, used to be very selective in his tournament choices. 

36 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

I think Pragyananda would have had the same potential but he won't be able to repeat that as Chess has no respect/prestige in India like cricket has and not much money either.

I don't think Pragg is that talented, neither are the other Indian prodigies...make no mistake I am not doubting them but just that compared to Carlsen, no. The Uzbek kid Nodirbek has the highest ceiling in this generation. Anyway let us wait and watch, they may surprise us. Wei Yi fell along the way, Firouzja has flattered to deceive and now we are hearing he wants to try a career in fashion designing. 

 

Agree mostly with the rest of your post. 

Edited March 10 by Gollum

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

I am not underestimating Carlsen at all. I rate him very highly, I agree about his physical shape helping him. But many are following similar methods (Caruana is in top physical shape doing crossfit, MVL playing tennis etc), without similar success. Carlsen's talent is on a higher scale and more importantly his career is the result of a favorable coincidence of circumstances as I wrote in my previous post. 

 

One cannot underestimate the effect of having Kasparov coach him in his development years, and giving access to his opening repertoire (Kasparov is the greatest theoretician, always and forever). Opening takes time to improve and Carlsen like all teenagers was weak in that, but in a matter of 2 years he closed the gap with his main rivals Anand/Kramnik and that also coincided with his peak playing strength, stamina, willpower. Usually players gather that kind of knowledge well past their peak (look at Aronian more recently) and it works also, compensating for other weaknesses that are age related....Carlsen peaked in all areas at the same time, in his early 20s. 

 

I can give an analogy from tennis, Federer/Djokovic perfected their service motions only in their 30s, that compensated for their physical decline in ground game, speed, stamina etc. But now imagine Federer of 2007-08 having the 2015 Federer serve (remember 2015 Wimbledon SF against Murray?). Or Djokovic's current serve fitted to his 2015 game. Scary, no? that is what happened to Carlsen, hence my sympathies with Caruana, almost as good (in classical) but not the chosen one because of being 2 years younger and developing later. Garry/sponsors/FIDE opponents needed a Western world champion at that time (can write later about Garry's political compulsions, his run for FIDE presidency etc) and Carlsen was the best candidate, elevated an already superhuman talent to greater heights. Had Garry not coached Carlsen in 2009-10, Carlsen would still have become WC at some point but history of chess would have been a bit different. 

 

You must also realize that what Carlsen achieved last decade is also helping him now. His aura has grown so much, people fear him so much that his errors go unpunished, they play meekly, underestimate their positions just because of who their opponent is etc. So he is reaping those benefits now, so many times his accuracy is lesser than his opponent but he ends up winning from a lost position, players blunder in equal positions and make unimaginable blunders for GM level. Kramnik has mentioned this aspect of Carlsen's game so many times. Fischer of 1966-72 had a similar aura. 

Internet era is different. Anyway Kasparov was notorious for hiding preparation in his WCC years, used to be very selective in his tournament choices. 

I don't think Pragg is that talented, neither are the other Indian prodigies...make no mistake I am not doubting them but just that compared to Carlsen, no. The Uzbek kid Nodirbek has the highest ceiling in this generation. Anyway let us wait and watch, they may surprise us. Wei Yi fell along the way, Firouzja has flattered to deceive but now we are hearing he wants to try a career as fashion designer. 

 

Agree mostly with the rest of your post. 

 

Saw every single chess players (top 15 players ) in addition to Kasparov playing against each other. 2 feet from them. Watche them go at each other for 2 hours. It was quiet an experience to see how they palyed. Anish Giri was constantly chit chatting and trolling others. Anand made some timely jokes. Carlsen was uber casual in shorts and t shirt. Kasparov in some colorful shirt.

[Gollum]

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Saw every single chess players (top 15 players ) in addition to Kasparov playing against each other. 2 feet from them. Watche them go at each other for 2 hours. It was quiet an experience to see how they palyed. Anish Giri was constantly chit chatting and trolling others. Anand made some timely jokes. Carlsen was uber casual in shorts and t shirt. Kasparov in some colorful shirt.

They have team games at the end of Sinquefield Classic, Father (Rex Sinquefield) vs Son (Randy Sinquefield). Just for fun, exho event, most are drunk, each side has 6-7 GMs plus father/son....players takes turns, 5 moves each I guess. 

 

Sinquefields have done a lot for American chess, from organizing so many events to chess programmes in schools, chess scholarships for Unis, poaching players for US Fed from outside (Caruana from Italy, So from Philippines, Aronian from Armenia, Dominguez from Cuba , also women.....)

Edited March 10 by Gollum

[Gollum]

3 hours ago, Vijy said:

wouldn't you call kasparov an ATG for a long period? he didn't do all that workouts and meditation. reason carlsen and kasparov are among the GOATs is because they are simply a cut above their competition. has little to do with malnutrition or workouts or meditation.

Kasparov was a very sporty guy, played football at club level. In his 30s and 40s, used to run half-marathons, rowing, canoeing etc. Super fit guy, I have seen documentaries showing his workout regimen, impressive, ripped dude. 

 

Meditation I doubt, not that kind of character the great Kasparov, he was/is a destructive force and very short tempered, restless, bull in a china shop. Carlen also tried his hand at meditation but lost interest, his meditation/yoga coach was Kate Murphy, Play Magnus CEO. Now you will ask me how I know these useless things. I saw this segment in the WCC coverage from 2016, Carlsen vs Karjakin. Don't judge me, I have lots of useless info from my PhD days when I used to watch random stuff like live chess coverage late at night in the lab. 

3 hours ago, Vijy said:

In 1980s, likes of Eng, Aus, even NZ had the same facilities and higher standard of living -- if not more -- than WI, yet there is no doubt that the latter was the ATG side, and one of the 2-3 GOAT sides.

Standard of living agree. 

But WI benefitted a lot from Packer's World Series, in terms of professionalism, fitness, just google Dennis Waight, Packer, Clive Lloyd.

Edited March 10 by Gollum

[Vijy]

45 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Kasparov was a very sporty guy, played football at club level. In his 30s and 40s, used to run half-marathons, rowing, canoeing etc. Super fit guy, I have seen documentaries showing his workout regimen, impressive, ripped dude. 

 

Meditation I doubt, not that kind of character the great Kasparov, he was/is a destructive force and very short tempered, restless, bull in a china shop. Carlen also tried his hand at meditation but lost interest, his meditation/yoga coach was Kate Murphy, Play Magnus CEO. Now you will ask me how I know these useless things. I saw this segment in the WCC coverage from 2016, Carlsen vs Karjakin. Don't judge me, I have lots of useless info from my PhD days when I used to watch random stuff like live chess coverage late at night in the lab. 

Standard of living agree. 

But WI benefitted a lot from Packer's World Series, in terms of professionalism, fitness, just google Dennis Waight, Packer, Clive Lloyd.

why would I do that? The whole point of a PhD (which I know first-hand) is to do useless stuff to overcome the periods of monotony.

 

thanks for sharing the info about kasparov. I knew that he was fit (that is obvious), but didn't know about his footer career

 

Agree that Packer helped WI a lot, but it should have done the same (theoretically) for other teams too. Moreover, a number of WI stars emerged in the post-Packer period

Edited March 10 by Vijy

[Vijy]

I like the fact that this thread has become all about chess.

 

@Gollum, we should talk about hockey next. Plenty of amazing talent, but not much to show for it -- this is one sport where nutrition, physical fitness, etc matter more than cricket IMO.

 

And of course, one must look at the history, and start to discuss the cunning introduction of astroturf (or astroturd, as I call it), the rise of cricket and the relegation of hockey to the margins, etc.

 

At their peak, I don't think even the cricket teams of 40s Aus, 80s WI, or 90s-00s Aus come close to Indian hockey dominance for about 3 decades (20s-50s). If one includes SC, there is even more to write about thanks to Pakistan's glory days as well

 

A shame that not just India, but Pak as well (maybe even more so), dropped the ball so massively in hockey

[Gollum]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I like the fact that this thread has become all about chess.

 

@Gollum, we should talk about hockey next. Plenty of amazing talent, but not much to show for it -- this is one sport where nutrition, physical fitness, etc matter more than cricket IMO.

 

And of course, one must look at the history, and start to discuss the cunning introduction of astroturf (or astroturd, as I call it), the rise of cricket and the relegation of hockey to the margins, etc.

 

At their peak, I don't think even the cricket teams of 40s Aus, 80s WI, or 90s-00s Aus come close to Indian hockey dominance for about 3 decades (20s-50s). If one includes SC, there is even more to write about thanks to Pakistan's glory days as well

 

A shame that not just India, but Pak as well (maybe even more so), dropped the ball so massively in hockey

I'm all for it. Olympics is coming up, we can discuss hockey and other sports in detail. Especially hockey which both of us (and many others here I am sure) love. 

Edited March 10 by Gollum

[Gollum]

About time we create threads for Paris buildup and also the official Paris Games (mega)thread. 

 

Tokyo Games thread was one of the most fun experiences I have had on ICF, since we were in medal contention almost all the days, we had three great threads in 2021: Tokyo, SCG escape, Gabba conquest 

Edited March 10 by Gollum

[Vijy]

Just now, Gollum said:

I'm all for it. Olympics is coming up, we can discuss hockey and other sports in detail. Especially hockey which both of us (and many others here I am sure) love. 

I feel like if we open it in Chit Chat, ironically it will be read less.

 

Hockey is such an amazing game. I wish I could see a silver/gold in Olympics or WC before I die. I don't see it happening in a short timescale, so I will just have to live on the memories of 1975 WC; I don't remember 1964 unfortunately. I don't really count 1980 for obvious reasons, though it was a strong-ish team

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

About time we create threads for Paris buildup and also the official Paris Games (mega)thread. 

 

Tokyo Games thread was one of the most fun experiences I have had on ICF, since we were in medal contention almost all the days, we had three great threads in 2021: Tokyo, SCG escape, Gabba conquest 

2021 was the last good year IMO. 2022 and 2023 and 2024 (so far) have not been that exciting.

 

I will be in Paris for part of the time, so I will go to watch some games, but I am not confident at all about medal hopes

[vvvslaxman]

5 hours ago, Suhaan said:

Vishwanathan why you post on cricket here using @Gollum

 

Vishy response on twitter:  Hey i can also play cricket

 

 

 

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Vishy response on twitter:  Hey i can also play cricket

 

 

 

next, you should post some of the hockey players playing cricket.