velu Posted March 10, 2024 Share Posted March 10, 2024 14 hours ago, Suhaan said: All formats?we need to win some ICC or big series overseas to bring back some of the erstwhile great posters miss @maniac @velu Anna, @SK_IH 's i m a buzzy man Suhaan 1 Link to comment
Gollum Posted March 10, 2024 Author Share Posted March 10, 2024 (edited) 36 minutes ago, BlueBlood said: Great post. I still think you underestimate Carlsen's fitness both mentally and physically. His late game skills are purely because of his mental focus and lack of making blunders. Lots of people who studied him give his physical strength along with meditation etc. that he does as singular reason he can consistently win in COVID era where people just capitulated in the bubbles and stress. I am not underestimating Carlsen at all. I rate him very highly, I agree about his physical shape helping him. But many are following similar methods (Caruana is in top physical shape doing crossfit, MVL playing tennis etc), without similar success. Carlsen's talent is on a higher scale and more importantly his career is the result of a favorable coincidence of circumstances as I wrote in my previous post. One cannot underestimate the effect of having Kasparov coach him in his development years, and giving access to his opening repertoire (Kasparov is the greatest theoretician, always and forever). Opening takes time to improve and Carlsen like all teenagers was weak in that, but in a matter of 2 years he closed the gap with his main rivals Anand/Kramnik and that also coincided with his peak playing strength, stamina, willpower. Usually players gather that kind of knowledge well past their peak (look at Aronian more recently) and it works also, compensating for other weaknesses that are age related....Carlsen peaked in all areas at the same time, in his early 20s. I can give an analogy from tennis, Federer/Djokovic perfected their service motions only in their 30s, that compensated for their physical decline in ground game, speed, stamina etc. But now imagine Federer of 2007-08 having the 2015 Federer serve (remember 2015 Wimbledon SF against Murray?). Or Djokovic's current serve fitted to his 2015 game. Scary, no? that is what happened to Carlsen, hence my sympathies with Caruana, almost as good (in classical) but not the chosen one because of being 2 years younger and developing later. Garry/sponsors/FIDE opponents needed a Western world champion at that time (can write later about Garry's political compulsions, his run for FIDE presidency etc) and Carlsen was the best candidate, elevated an already superhuman talent to greater heights. Had Garry not coached Carlsen in 2009-10, Carlsen would still have become WC at some point but history of chess would have been a bit different. You must also realize that what Carlsen achieved last decade is also helping him now. His aura has grown immeasurably, people fear him so much that his errors go unpunished, they play meekly, underestimate their positions just because of who their opponent is etc. He is reaping those benefits now, so many times his accuracy is lesser than his opponent but he ends up winning from lost positions, players blunder in equal positions and make unimaginable blunders for GM level. Kramnik has mentioned this aspect of Carlsen's game so many times. Fischer of 1966-72 had a similar aura. 36 minutes ago, BlueBlood said: Even Carlsen's real money is his YouTube and social media presence with Chess.com where he is open to play against anyone. I recall only Kasparov was open to play against any opponent in his prime. Internet era is different. Anyway Kasparov was notorious for hiding preparation in his WCC years, used to be very selective in his tournament choices. 36 minutes ago, BlueBlood said: I think Pragyananda would have had the same potential but he won't be able to repeat that as Chess has no respect/prestige in India like cricket has and not much money either. I don't think Pragg is that talented, neither are the other Indian prodigies...make no mistake I am not doubting them but just that compared to Carlsen, no. The Uzbek kid Nodirbek has the highest ceiling in this generation. Anyway let us wait and watch, they may surprise us. Wei Yi fell along the way, Firouzja has flattered to deceive and now we are hearing he wants to try a career in fashion designing. Agree mostly with the rest of your post. Edited March 10, 2024 by Gollum sensible-indian and Vijy 2 Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted March 10, 2024 Share Posted March 10, 2024 1 minute ago, Gollum said: I am not underestimating Carlsen at all. I rate him very highly, I agree about his physical shape helping him. But many are following similar methods (Caruana is in top physical shape doing crossfit, MVL playing tennis etc), without similar success. Carlsen's talent is on a higher scale and more importantly his career is the result of a favorable coincidence of circumstances as I wrote in my previous post. One cannot underestimate the effect of having Kasparov coach him in his development years, and giving access to his opening repertoire (Kasparov is the greatest theoretician, always and forever). Opening takes time to improve and Carlsen like all teenagers was weak in that, but in a matter of 2 years he closed the gap with his main rivals Anand/Kramnik and that also coincided with his peak playing strength, stamina, willpower. Usually players gather that kind of knowledge well past their peak (look at Aronian more recently) and it works also, compensating for other weaknesses that are age related....Carlsen peaked in all areas at the same time, in his early 20s. I can give an analogy from tennis, Federer/Djokovic perfected their service motions only in their 30s, that compensated for their physical decline in ground game, speed, stamina etc. But now imagine Federer of 2007-08 having the 2015 Federer serve (remember 2015 Wimbledon SF against Murray?). Or Djokovic's current serve fitted to his 2015 game. Scary, no? that is what happened to Carlsen, hence my sympathies with Caruana, almost as good (in classical) but not the chosen one because of being 2 years younger and developing later. Garry/sponsors/FIDE opponents needed a Western world champion at that time (can write later about Garry's political compulsions, his run for FIDE presidency etc) and Carlsen was the best candidate, elevated an already superhuman talent to greater heights. Had Garry not coached Carlsen in 2009-10, Carlsen would still have become WC at some point but history of chess would have been a bit different. You must also realize that what Carlsen achieved last decade is also helping him now. His aura has grown so much, people fear him so much that his errors go unpunished, they play meekly, underestimate their positions just because of who their opponent is etc. So he is reaping those benefits now, so many times his accuracy is lesser than his opponent but he ends up winning from a lost position, players blunder in equal positions and make unimaginable blunders for GM level. Kramnik has mentioned this aspect of Carlsen's game so many times. Fischer of 1966-72 had a similar aura. Internet era is different. Anyway Kasparov was notorious for hiding preparation in his WCC years, used to be very selective in his tournament choices. I don't think Pragg is that talented, neither are the other Indian prodigies...make no mistake I am not doubting them but just that compared to Carlsen, no. The Uzbek kid Nodirbek has the highest ceiling in this generation. Anyway let us wait and watch, they may surprise us. Wei Yi fell along the way, Firouzja has flattered to deceive but now we are hearing he wants to try a career as fashion designer. Agree mostly with the rest of your post. Saw every single chess players (top 15 players ) in addition to Kasparov playing against each other. 2 feet from them. Watche them go at each other for 2 hours. It was quiet an experience to see how they palyed. Anish Giri was constantly chit chatting and trolling others. Anand made some timely jokes. Carlsen was uber casual in shorts and t shirt. Kasparov in some colorful shirt. Link to comment
Gollum Posted March 10, 2024 Author Share Posted March 10, 2024 (edited) 4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: Saw every single chess players (top 15 players ) in addition to Kasparov playing against each other. 2 feet from them. Watche them go at each other for 2 hours. It was quiet an experience to see how they palyed. Anish Giri was constantly chit chatting and trolling others. Anand made some timely jokes. Carlsen was uber casual in shorts and t shirt. Kasparov in some colorful shirt. They have team games at the end of Sinquefield Classic, Father (Rex Sinquefield) vs Son (Randy Sinquefield). Just for fun, exho event, most are drunk, each side has 6-7 GMs plus father/son....players takes turns, 5 moves each I guess. Sinquefields have done a lot for American chess, from organizing so many events to chess programmes in schools, chess scholarships for Unis, poaching players for US Fed from outside (Caruana from Italy, So from Philippines, Aronian from Armenia, Dominguez from Cuba , also women.....) Edited March 10, 2024 by Gollum Vijy and vvvslaxman 2 Link to comment
Gollum Posted March 10, 2024 Author Share Posted March 10, 2024 (edited) 3 hours ago, Vijy said: wouldn't you call kasparov an ATG for a long period? he didn't do all that workouts and meditation. reason carlsen and kasparov are among the GOATs is because they are simply a cut above their competition. has little to do with malnutrition or workouts or meditation. Kasparov was a very sporty guy, played football at club level. In his 30s and 40s, used to run half-marathons, rowing, canoeing etc. Super fit guy, I have seen documentaries showing his workout regimen, impressive, ripped dude. Meditation I doubt, not that kind of character the great Kasparov, he was/is a destructive force and very short tempered, restless, bull in a china shop. Carlen also tried his hand at meditation but lost interest, his meditation/yoga coach was Kate Murphy, Play Magnus CEO. Now you will ask me how I know these useless things. I saw this segment in the WCC coverage from 2016, Carlsen vs Karjakin. Don't judge me, I have lots of useless info from my PhD days when I used to watch random stuff like live chess coverage late at night in the lab. 3 hours ago, Vijy said: In 1980s, likes of Eng, Aus, even NZ had the same facilities and higher standard of living -- if not more -- than WI, yet there is no doubt that the latter was the ATG side, and one of the 2-3 GOAT sides. Standard of living agree. But WI benefitted a lot from Packer's World Series, in terms of professionalism, fitness, just google Dennis Waight, Packer, Clive Lloyd. Edited March 10, 2024 by Gollum Vijy 1 Link to comment
Vijy Posted March 10, 2024 Share Posted March 10, 2024 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Gollum said: Kasparov was a very sporty guy, played football at club level. In his 30s and 40s, used to run half-marathons, rowing, canoeing etc. Super fit guy, I have seen documentaries showing his workout regimen, impressive, ripped dude. Meditation I doubt, not that kind of character the great Kasparov, he was/is a destructive force and very short tempered, restless, bull in a china shop. Carlen also tried his hand at meditation but lost interest, his meditation/yoga coach was Kate Murphy, Play Magnus CEO. Now you will ask me how I know these useless things. I saw this segment in the WCC coverage from 2016, Carlsen vs Karjakin. Don't judge me, I have lots of useless info from my PhD days when I used to watch random stuff like live chess coverage late at night in the lab. Standard of living agree. But WI benefitted a lot from Packer's World Series, in terms of professionalism, fitness, just google Dennis Waight, Packer, Clive Lloyd. why would I do that? The whole point of a PhD (which I know first-hand) is to do useless stuff to overcome the periods of monotony. thanks for sharing the info about kasparov. I knew that he was fit (that is obvious), but didn't know about his footer career Agree that Packer helped WI a lot, but it should have done the same (theoretically) for other teams too. Moreover, a number of WI stars emerged in the post-Packer period Edited March 10, 2024 by Vijy Gollum 1 Link to comment
Vijy Posted March 10, 2024 Share Posted March 10, 2024 I like the fact that this thread has become all about chess. @Gollum, we should talk about hockey next. Plenty of amazing talent, but not much to show for it -- this is one sport where nutrition, physical fitness, etc matter more than cricket IMO. And of course, one must look at the history, and start to discuss the cunning introduction of astroturf (or astroturd, as I call it), the rise of cricket and the relegation of hockey to the margins, etc. At their peak, I don't think even the cricket teams of 40s Aus, 80s WI, or 90s-00s Aus come close to Indian hockey dominance for about 3 decades (20s-50s). If one includes SC, there is even more to write about thanks to Pakistan's glory days as well A shame that not just India, but Pak as well (maybe even more so), dropped the ball so massively in hockey Gollum and rollingstoned 2 Link to comment
Gollum Posted March 10, 2024 Author Share Posted March 10, 2024 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Vijy said: I like the fact that this thread has become all about chess. @Gollum, we should talk about hockey next. Plenty of amazing talent, but not much to show for it -- this is one sport where nutrition, physical fitness, etc matter more than cricket IMO. And of course, one must look at the history, and start to discuss the cunning introduction of astroturf (or astroturd, as I call it), the rise of cricket and the relegation of hockey to the margins, etc. At their peak, I don't think even the cricket teams of 40s Aus, 80s WI, or 90s-00s Aus come close to Indian hockey dominance for about 3 decades (20s-50s). If one includes SC, there is even more to write about thanks to Pakistan's glory days as well A shame that not just India, but Pak as well (maybe even more so), dropped the ball so massively in hockey I'm all for it. Olympics is coming up, we can discuss hockey and other sports in detail. Especially hockey which both of us (and many others here I am sure) love. Edited March 10, 2024 by Gollum Vijy and rollingstoned 2 Link to comment
Gollum Posted March 10, 2024 Author Share Posted March 10, 2024 (edited) About time we create threads for Paris buildup and also the official Paris Games (mega)thread. Tokyo Games thread was one of the most fun experiences I have had on ICF, since we were in medal contention almost all the days, we had three great threads in 2021: Tokyo, SCG escape, Gabba conquest Edited March 10, 2024 by Gollum Vijy, Lone Wolf and rollingstoned 3 Link to comment
Vijy Posted March 10, 2024 Share Posted March 10, 2024 Just now, Gollum said: I'm all for it. Olympics is coming up, we can discuss hockey and other sports in detail. Especially hockey which both of us (and many others here I am sure) love. I feel like if we open it in Chit Chat, ironically it will be read less. Hockey is such an amazing game. I wish I could see a silver/gold in Olympics or WC before I die. I don't see it happening in a short timescale, so I will just have to live on the memories of 1975 WC; I don't remember 1964 unfortunately. I don't really count 1980 for obvious reasons, though it was a strong-ish team Gollum 1 Link to comment
Vijy Posted March 10, 2024 Share Posted March 10, 2024 2 minutes ago, Gollum said: About time we create threads for Paris buildup and also the official Paris Games (mega)thread. Tokyo Games thread was one of the most fun experiences I have had on ICF, since we were in medal contention almost all the days, we had three great threads in 2021: Tokyo, SCG escape, Gabba conquest 2021 was the last good year IMO. 2022 and 2023 and 2024 (so far) have not been that exciting. I will be in Paris for part of the time, so I will go to watch some games, but I am not confident at all about medal hopes Gollum 1 Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted March 10, 2024 Share Posted March 10, 2024 5 hours ago, Suhaan said: Vishwanathan why you post on cricket here using @Gollum Vishy response on twitter: Hey i can also play cricket Vijy, Gollum and Suhaan 1 2 Link to comment
Vijy Posted March 10, 2024 Share Posted March 10, 2024 10 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: Vishy response on twitter: Hey i can also play cricket next, you should post some of the hockey players playing cricket. Link to comment
Suhaan Posted March 11, 2024 Share Posted March 11, 2024 (edited) 3 hours ago, vvvslaxman said: Vishy response on twitter: Hey i can also play cricket Sometimes I think @Gollum aka Vishwanathan and Ashwin are from same bloodline/family tree Ashwin starts playing 16D chess Edited March 11, 2024 by Suhaan Vijy and Gollum 2 Link to comment
Gollum Posted March 11, 2024 Author Share Posted March 11, 2024 1 hour ago, Suhaan said: Sometimes I think @Gollum aka Vishwanathan and Ashwin are from same bloodline/family tree Ashwin starts playing 16D chess Suhaan 1 Link to comment
Gollum Posted March 11, 2024 Author Share Posted March 11, 2024 5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said: Vishy response on twitter: Hey i can also play cricket Plays short ball better than Shreyas Iyer. Link to comment
Vijy Posted March 11, 2024 Share Posted March 11, 2024 9 hours ago, Gollum said: Plays short ball better than Shreyas Iyer. also seems to have a greater hunger than Iyer for batting Link to comment
deathmonger Posted March 14, 2024 Share Posted March 14, 2024 On 3/10/2024 at 11:56 AM, Trichromatic said: India easily has over 1 crore population having over 170k USD. There are countries with lower wealth for top 1 cr population and doing well in sports. Poverty is not the reason for India doing badly. Naah, issue is distribution. That 1 crore population is the elite and is in top white collar jobs, business, entertainment, politics etc. Those people don't go into sports. Sports is a blue collar activity. In USA blue collar households with both parents working can get over 120-130k. India that must be around USD 5-6k. First world countries do well cause their poor people are above a minimum. Link to comment
deathmonger Posted March 14, 2024 Share Posted March 14, 2024 (edited) On 3/10/2024 at 9:04 AM, BlueBlood said: The issue is clearly focus on cricket and even in that sport despite all kinds of nonsense posts by stat padding worshippers India can't win a single cup. Even in a game like Chess, the fitness and focus levels are meek due to malnutrition and lack of proper coaching system that focuses on thriving in stressful tournaments. It's ingrained in the culture of better not to try than fail and look like a loser. This is why subcontinent has such poor Olympic hauls. So much nonsense about rich/poor... In China and even places like Eastern Europe, Africa etc. The poorest generally do really well in Olympics due to hunger. Of all the cricket players, I have only seen Kohli show the commitment to peak fitness which allows him to not just have longevity at highest level but also stamina to perform when others are tired. The reason we lose Olympics is exactly the reason we lose world cups in cricket. Teams plan 4 years in advance on team composition and are not afraid to fail in bilaterals and other tournaments to find the winning combination and develop a cohesive team. Look at England in 2019... the team was built over 4 years preparing for the world cup while India brought in has-beens and over-exposed Kuldeep and Chahal in order to stat pad bilateral tours and IPL. Had they been protected, they would have been lethal. Even now this test series win is lauded as great achievement at home but had KL, Kohli, Iyer, Axar been featured, the results could have been the same. But there would have been zero transition to youngsters. It's this brain dead level thinking that will keep sinking the team. You need to prepare your team for major tournaments and build a well rounded team through giving chances in bilateral. Instead we see idiots here giving applause to bilateral bashing through playing your best team and senior players all the time. What's the point of still keeping Jadeja in ODI and T20? Or even Rohit, Kohli, KL, Iyer etc. They are never going to win you a T20 WC. But they are tagged along even in useless bilaterals where youngsters only get chance when someone is injured and expected to perform from day 1. Look at Patidar, his career is over just because he failed in a couple of games. Yet, seniors get 20 games even if they fail. People compare China and India blindly. They are not at the same level. China is almost first world. Will be in 15-20 years. Their pc income is 5-6 times that of India's. Eastern Europe is even further ahead. It will take us 25-30 years to get to $10k-12k. Africa is really bad at the Olympics. Most African countries don't even medal. Black people from USA and Europe do well. Commitment, culture etc are rubbish excuses. The main issue is poverty. Korea was a single medal country until the 70s. India is way stronger now than it was 10 years ago and 10 years later will be even stronger. Edited March 14, 2024 by deathmonger Suhaan 1 Link to comment
Kron Posted March 15, 2024 Share Posted March 15, 2024 1 hour ago, deathmonger said: Naah, issue is distribution. That 1 crore population is the elite and is in top white collar jobs, business, entertainment, politics etc. Those people don't go into sports. Sports is a blue collar activity. In USA blue collar households with both parents working can get over 120-130k. India that must be around USD 5-6k. First world countries do well cause their poor people are above a minimum. Thanks to Indians for allowing Brits to divide and conquer. No one to blame but our own people. Getting involved in bribery, treachery, switching and just being slimy ruined our once strong nation. It's getting there but it will take another 20 years now Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now