French Open 2024

[Gollum]

19 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

 

If you go by Courier's logic, yes. "Playing on clay heals any niggle in the legs" . Even though Courier is speaking as an expert, he may have his own biases. There are plenty of guys who did better at wimbledon without grinding in clay. Even Federer did quite well in the previous few years since his renaissance in 2017. Sampras also sucked at clay ad usually skipped most of the tourneys and only played RG. He was almost undefeatable at wimbledon

Fed's baseline game in 2019 Wimbledon reminded me of his peak years. Clay season definitely helped, he was shanking a lot with his new racquet but amazing consistency in 2017 and 19, better offensive game in 17, more all round in 19.

 

Grass was much different in Sampras' time.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Gollum

[Real McCoy]

33 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Fed's baseline game in 2019 Wimbledon reminded me of his peak years. Clay season definitely helped, he was shanking a lot with his new racquet but amazing consistency in 2017 and 19, better offensive game in 17, more all round in 19.

 

Grass was much different in Sampras' time.

 

Yes grass was lot faster in the 90s. I think in 2001, they changed it to the current version. Hence hard court baseliners players like Hewitt and Nalbandian participated in the final in 2002. Fed's game was more baseline oriented anyway. Fed is compared with Sampras but he has parallels with agassi too btw.

[Muloghonto]

5 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

 

Yes grass was lot faster in the 90s. I think in 2001, they changed it to the current version. Hence hard court baseliners players like Hewitt and Nalbandian participated in the final in 2002. Fed's game was more baseline oriented anyway. Fed is compared with Sampras but he has parallels with agassi too btw.

Fed had the most complete game of anyone i've ever seen. The match where he beat Sampras in 5 sets in wimbledon was a match on old grass, where he was S&V-ing on every single first serve and often slice-n-charging sampras if sampras stuck to the baseline. And he did better than practically every other S&V player i've seen sampras play in his peak, except maybe Goran ( but Goran was a nutcase and found ways to break himself). Definitely did better on his serve in S&V mode than noted S&V players like Rafter & Henman of that era vs Sampras. So on old grass, i still see Federer being just as dominant.  If old grass was continued in his era, he'd be even more dominant, as the top 10 had no S&V of callibre. Djokovic, Nadal, Murray are big fat zeros at S&V and Roddick was attrocious at S&V, mostly because he had poor spatial awareness ( he either came too close to the net and got passed on sharp angle or came in but not close enough to get screwed by the top spin shots landing at his feet). 

 

[bharathh]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Fed had the most complete game of anyone i've ever seen. The match where he beat Sampras in 5 sets in wimbledon was a match on old grass, where he was S&V-ing on every single first serve and often slice-n-charging sampras if sampras stuck to the baseline. And he did better than practically every other S&V player i've seen sampras play in his peak, except maybe Goran ( but Goran was a nutcase and found ways to break himself). Definitely did better on his serve in S&V mode than noted S&V players like Rafter & Henman of that era vs Sampras. So on old grass, i still see Federer being just as dominant.  If old grass was continued in his era, he'd be even more dominant, as the top 10 had no S&V of callibre. Djokovic, Nadal, Murray are big fat zeros at S&V and Roddick was attrocious at S&V, mostly because he had poor spatial awareness ( he either came too close to the net and got passed on sharp angle or came in but not close enough to get screwed by the top spin shots landing at his feet). 

 

Agree! Fed would have been even more dominant on the 90s grass as ppl like Nadal would have had no chance on the faster grass.

 

 

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, bharathh said:

Agree! Fed would have been even more dominant on the 90s grass as ppl like Nadal would have had no chance on the faster grass.

 

 

Not just nadal. None of the other 2 of the big 4 or Stanimal+Murray would stand a chance in wimbledon on 90s grass, as they are not natural S&V players. Djokovic would, at best, look like Agassi did when he went up against Sampras : next to no chance and relying on Sampras having a bad day to stand a chance (the gap is too wide on old grass, unlike on hard where Agassi did beat sampras a few times at his peak in slam finals). 

 

The main thing about old grass wasnt that it was faster(which it was, but by a bit), but it was a surface of much more uneven bounce. Uneven bounce is what kills baseline play, as players simply cant trust the bounce to take meaty whacks at the ball and are forced to close the gap and rush to the net to finish the point. 

This is also where the one handed backhand would be a big advantage, as one handed backhand lets you deal with uneven bounce a lot easier than two-handed one, due to reach advantage. 

Roddick would've been more of a challenge on his best day, because he'd have the monster serve to bail him out. 

 

[Real McCoy]

4 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Fed had the most complete game of anyone i've ever seen. The match where he beat Sampras in 5 sets in wimbledon was a match on old grass, where he was S&V-ing on every single first serve and often slice-n-charging sampras if sampras stuck to the baseline. And he did better than practically every other S&V player i've seen sampras play in his peak, except maybe Goran ( but Goran was a nutcase and found ways to break himself). Definitely did better on his serve in S&V mode than noted S&V players like Rafter & Henman of that era vs Sampras. So on old grass, i still see Federer being just as dominant.  If old grass was continued in his era, he'd be even more dominant, as the top 10 had no S&V of callibre. Djokovic, Nadal, Murray are big fat zeros at S&V and Roddick was attrocious at S&V, mostly because he had poor spatial awareness ( he either came too close to the net and got passed on sharp angle or came in but not close enough to get screwed by the top spin shots landing at his feet). 

 

 

S&V training comes early in life. Fed FWIW is not a natural S&V. Players like Edberg and Sampras did S&V almost everytime. Federer would still win against Djokovic and Nadal but he will not be as successful as Sampras. Both Federer and Djokovic would be like Agassi in the 90s. Nadal would have as much success as a clay courter in the 90s

[Muloghonto]

55 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

 

S&V training comes early in life. Fed FWIW is not a natural S&V. Players like Edberg and Sampras did S&V almost everytime. Federer would still win against Djokovic and Nadal but he will not be as successful as Sampras. Both Federer and Djokovic would be like Agassi in the 90s. Nadal would have as much success as a clay courter in the 90s

 

No, Fed trained as S&V early in his career is why he was routinely S&V on every single first serve on grass and most of the time on HC as well ( i saw him in the late 90s when he did this with his stupid ponytail look). He didnt come in on his second serve because unlike Sampras/Edberg, federer's second serve was quite weak in the early part of his career (you can still see this in his match vs sampras, where he lacks confidence in his second serve and as soon as sampras belts a few winners off of his second serve, he stops coming in). 

And no, nobody is gonna be as successful as Sampras on old grass because Sampras had the absolute best serve ever. People don't realise how good his serve was by just looking at stats - his second serve alone would be in the top 25 alltime serves, which is insane, given that even federer/djokovic's second serve has about a 1000 people ahead of them ( ie, 1000 people with first serves are better than Fedovic's second serves- which still makes it one hell of a second serve). 

Not to mention, the man had the pefect disguise on his serve - you simply cant read him at all, whether he is going down the T or out wide, slice, top spin or flat serve. You react only after the ball leaves his racket, which means you are screwed. 

on fast courts, he's just unplayable when on form. Sampras is the only guy i've ever seen who went entire tournaments without being broken even once. That...is insane. 

[Gollum]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Fed had the most complete game of anyone i've ever seen. The match where he beat Sampras in 5 sets in wimbledon was a match on old grass, where he was S&V-ing on every single first serve and often slice-n-charging sampras if sampras stuck to the baseline. And he did better than practically every other S&V player i've seen sampras play in his peak, except maybe Goran ( but Goran was a nutcase and found ways to break himself). Definitely did better on his serve in S&V mode than noted S&V players like Rafter & Henman of that era vs Sampras.

Raftar did well with S&V against Sampras, he also gave young Fed a very tough time. Henman too overrated by the Brits. 

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

So on old grass, i still see Federer being just as dominant.  If old grass was continued in his era, he'd be even more dominant, as the top 10 had no S&V of callibre. Djokovic, Nadal, Murray are big fat zeros at S&V and Roddick was attrocious at S&V, mostly because he had poor spatial awareness ( he either came too close to the net and got passed on sharp angle or came in but not close enough to get screwed by the top spin shots landing at his feet). 

Nadal is one of the greatest volleyers of all time, you can check his ruthlessly efficient S/V in 2010 Wimbledon, that year he was also serving like a man possessed. Federer rates his volleying very highly, you can check his interviews. Murray decent S&V, not a big fat zero. 

 

Nole has the greatest serve+return combo in the history of the sport, that compensates for his lack of volleys even on 90s grass. 

 

Also Nole, Nadal, Murray are 5-6 years younger than Fed, otherwise they would have trained differently in their youth and put more emphasis on S&V had they been born in early 80s.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Gollum

[Gollum]

Nole is such an upgrade over Agassi. Agassi was pathetic on serve, after his work with Goran, Nole has made it a weapon, won the 2018 Wimbledon SF against Rafa purely based on servebotting and clutchness. Serve has become an integral part of his game in the last 4-5 years, to compensate for physical decline. 

[Gollum]

One of the underrated points about Sampras is his mental toughness, clutchest player before Nole. You had to outplay him like crazy to beat him in a big final, all 50:50 matches Sampras would edge. 

[putrevus]

Sad to see the GOAT getting injured due to insane scheduling. Lost all interest in french open, hope he is fit to play Wimbledon.

 

The one match up I would have loved to see is Pete vs GOAT at Wimbledon.The greatest returner vs greatest server, that would have been awesome battle.

[Gollum]

39 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Sad to see the GOAT getting injured due to insane scheduling. Lost all interest in french open, hope he is fit to play Wimbledon.

 

The one match up I would have loved to see is Pete vs GOAT at Wimbledon.The greatest returner vs greatest server, that would have been awesome battle.

Pre 2002 Wimbledon, Sampras would have dominated.

 

Post 2002, Nole. No way any version of Sampras can keep up in baseline rallies against Fed, Nole, Nadal on medium paced courts.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Gollum

[Gollum]

51 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Sad to see the GOAT getting injured due to insane scheduling. Lost all interest in french open, hope he is fit to play Wimbledon.

 

The one match up I would have loved to see is Pete vs GOAT at Wimbledon.The greatest returner vs greatest server, that would have been awesome battle.

Alcaraz and Sinner are going to fill the void, both terrific prospects. 

[Gollum]

Safin blew him apart in 2000 USO final. But it was Hewitt's victory over him in 2001 USO final which convinces me Sampras had no answers to the modern game which involves more grinding. He retired at the age of 31, too soon many will say. But he didn't have the game to play Federer of 2003-07, Agassi was better equipped but even he could only give a few scares to peak Fed. 

[Gollum]

I think Nole will take a slamless year as long as he wins the elusive Olympic gold.

 

Nadal won gold in 2008, Murray in 2012 and 2016, Fed won silver in 2012 but at least has a doubles gold (not the same thing I know).

 

Nole won bronze in 2008 Beijing singles, but gold is one thing missing in his resume, once he achieves that he'll have the most complete record probably in any individual sport. 

[putrevus]

7 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Pre 2002 Wimbledon, Sampras would have dominated.

 

Post 2002, Nole. No way any version of Sampras can keep up in baseline rallies against Fed, Nole, Nadal on medium paced courts.

IMO, Pre 2002 also Nole would have the edge.If they faced in five finals, it would be 3-2 in favour of Nole even in 1990s as I would give Novak edge in tie breakers.

 

Sampras never faced a complete player like Nole (once he improved his serve) in any final.

 

Sampras was just fine from baseline, infact he resented if anyone called his baseline part a weaklink in his game.

 

Even during big three era Pete would win his share on wimbledons .I don't think game has seen better server than Pete, his second serve was a thing of beauty.

[putrevus]

28 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Alcaraz and Sinner are going to fill the void, both terrific prospects. 

I have not yet warmed up to them.They sure are great prospects.

[putrevus]

15 minutes ago, Vicks57 said:

 

Even if Djokovic was not injured, he cannot beat Alcaraz or Sinner on current form.

Anything can happen but you are underestimating the tougness of Novak.I am not saying he would have won but beating him in five set match is not an easy task.

 

Last year took a toll on him for sure.Reaching all four Grandslam finals plus winning ATP finals is taxing for even 24 year old but for 36 year old it is more taxing. He was one set away from a perfect season. 

[Real McCoy]

Sinner takes the first set v Alcaraz

[I6MTW]

One way traffic so far. Sinner on his way to take the match. Alcaraz has failed to deliver once again. He's overrated. Hasn't done anything of note since winning Wimbledon last year. I think Alcaraz, has already peaked, having been an early boomer. 

 

Sinner will have a better career for sure.