Danger of Shubman Gill turning into Indian 'Babar Azam'

[Ultimate_Game]

10 hours ago, StraightDrive26 said:

This forum is getting ridiculous. In another year or two there will not be a single Indian player who will be good enough to play for India. Might as well not have a team at all. Leave Shubman alone, what he did in that one Australia tour is more than majority of the players around the world haven't done in their entire careers. He is still young and he will learn and improve. If we keep dropping players like this India will not be the best in the world anytime. Please don't compare Shubman with Babar, Shubman has a SR of 103 in ODIs and 140 in T20Is. Also Shubman surely had no say in selecting this squad? He was not the official Indian team captain, he was just a stand in

 

I think you're confusing formats. Yes, Gill was amazing in Aus in 2020-21 like most of our youngsters. ButT20s is a different game. Do you really think Gill is suited to be a T20I opener ahead of Jaiswal and Abhishek? Abhishek scored a 40 ball 100 and was demoted to no. 3 the very next day and we saw Gill take 50 balls to score 65! We don't another case of a player being bigger than the game to the detriment of the team. That was the reason we had a below-par Kohli open the innings in WT20 with Jaiswal sitting on the bench.

 

Do you want a similar scenario played out in WT20 in 2026 where Gill opens and Abhishek sits on the bench? Given the next WT20 is in India and we've all seen Abhishek's performances in SMA and IPL recently. It wasn't a flash in the pan. Abhishek is a high impact player who averages 30 but with a SR of 170+. He'll more likely than not get you off to a flier and possibly win you games in PP itself similar to Travis Head. We need to back such players as if we push Abhishek down the order because of Gill's performances in Tests and ODIs, we lose a high impact player in T20Is, and probably the most impactful batsman we have.

 

Gill is more suited to open in ODIs just like Sai Sudarshan. Or if the team management really wants him to play in T20Is the only spot he can bat is at 3. Not Abhishek at 3 but Gill. Ideally he shouldn't be there in T20Is as his natural game is simply not suited to the modern T20 and the difference in Jaiswal/Abhishek and his batting shows it clearly. Gill belongs to Kohli's school of batting which was acceptable till mid 2010s but now we need batters, especially openers in the mold of Head, Warner, Buttler etc. Abhishek and Jaiswal are that.

[nevada]

20 hours ago, MumInd said:

i agree with one caveat...

 

he doesn't have big name ipl franchise backing and marketing....

 

i will not be surprised if he forces a move to rcb to become their captain...

 

gujju titans still small fish in big IPL pond dominated by best ever ipl team CSK, cheaters bambais, KKR and zero titles RCB....

 

 

Guj Titans sorely missed Shami, who was taking wickets at regular intervals. Gill is fine at this franchise, because he has already won a title with them and went to another final. Why bother going to RCB which has never won the title? KKR is a better option for him in case of a transfer as he was given solid support by them when he was still a budding cricketer. 

[TellTheTruth]

9 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

I think you're confusing formats. Yes, Gill was amazing in Aus in 2020-21 like most of our youngsters. ButT20s is a different game. Do you really think Gill is suited to be a T20I opener ahead of Jaiswal and Abhishek? Abhishek scored a 40 ball 100 and was demoted to no. 3 the very next day and we saw Gill take 50 balls to score 65! We don't another case of a player being bigger than the game to the detriment of the team. That was the reason we had a below-par Kohli open the innings in WT20 with Jaiswal sitting on the bench.

 

Do you want a similar scenario played out in WT20 in 2026 where Gill opens and Abhishek sits on the bench? Given the next WT20 is in India and we've all seen Abhishek's performances in SMA and IPL recently. It wasn't a flash in the pan. Abhishek is a high impact player who averages 30 but with a SR of 170+. He'll more likely than not get you off to a flier and possibly win you games in PP itself similar to Travis Head. We need to back such players as if we push Abhishek down the order because of Gill's performances in Tests and ODIs, we lose a high impact player in T20Is, and probably the most impactful batsman we have.

 

Gill is more suited to open in ODIs just like Sai Sudarshan. Or if the team management really wants him to play in T20Is the only spot he can bat is at 3. Not Abhishek at 3 but Gill. Ideally he shouldn't be there in T20Is as his natural game is simply not suited to the modern T20 and the difference in Jaiswal/Abhishek and his batting shows it clearly. Gill belongs to Kohli's school of batting which was acceptable till mid 2010s but now we need batters, especially openers in the mold of Head, Warner, Buttler etc. Abhishek and Jaiswal are that.

When you say not suited to modern t20 cricket, we just won a world cup with a batman's that took 48 balls to score a 50.

Edited July 17, 2024 by TellTheTruth

[Ultimate_Game]

4 minutes ago, TellTheTruth said:

When you say not suited to modern t20 cricket, we just won a world cup with a batman's that took 48 balls to score a 50.

 

Let's not use exception to prove a rule. It was brilliance of Bumrah which won us the match, and the tourney. SA needed 30 off 30 with 6 wkts in hand thanks to that 48 ball 50 innings. Do you really want to use this template to build the team when you've likes of Jaiswal and Abhishek?

 

Relying on Bumrah or any bowler to go through a tourney with a RR of 4 in T20s is not going to happen anytime soon. I would rather build a team where we don't have to rely on such miracles as that's the reason we failed to win a trophy for more than a decade. We used to put up below-par totals and expect bowlers to bail us out. I would rather have a team with Jaiswal and Abhishek as openers to get us above-par totals. Gill shouldn't bat anywhere else than 3 else we'll be wasting someone like Abhishek.

[BacktoCricaddict]

Agree that Gill should not be in the T20I lineup. Test and ODI guy,

 

But, I don't see anything sinister in moving A. Sharma down to #3. It is just a simple-minded LHB-RHB calculus. TMs and Captains value this too much. Just send the 2 most aggressive 6 hitters in PP - Left or Right shouldn't matter.

[rkt.india]

Babar as a talent is nowhere close to Gill.

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, BacktoCricaddict said:

Agree that Gill should not be in the T20I lineup. Test and ODI guy,

 

But, I don't see anything sinister in moving A. Sharma down to #3. It is just a simple-minded LHB-RHB calculus. TMs and Captains value this too much. Just send the 2 most aggressive 6 hitters in PP - Left or Right shouldn't matter.

 

His game is to bat in PP. If we move Abhishek to no. 3 it would be the same as asking Head to bat at 3 just because Warner is also a left-hander. And very similar to how Pak pushed their only match-winner in Fakhar to 3 or 4 to accommodate Babar and Rizwan.

 

Abhishek's game is built to bat in PP. He succeeds in PP as there're only 2 players out and that's what his 170 Sr shows. There isn't anyone close to him in our domestic cricket so why push him to a spot when he has shown he's the impact player we need to compete with likes of Head, Buttler, Salt etc.

[singhvivek141]

20 hours ago, MumInd said:

i agree with one caveat...

 

he doesn't have big name ipl franchise backing and marketing....

 

i will not be surprised if he forces a move to rcb to become their captain...

 

gujju titans still small fish in big IPL pond dominated by best ever ipl team CSK, cheaters bambais, KKR and zero titles RCB....

 

 

That's essentially the plan of KL Rahul.

[Ultimate_Game]

2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

That's essentially the plan of KL Rahul.

 

RCB fans ne pichle janam mein bahut paap kiye honge... pehle Kohli aur phir KL Rahul 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Ultimate_Game

[BacktoCricaddict]

5 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

so why push him to a spot when he has shown he's the impact player

Why? Because we overvalue L/R opening combo. Silliness.

[tapandrun]

11 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Let's not use exception to prove a rule. It was brilliance of Bumrah which won us the match, and the tourney. SA needed 30 off 30 with 6 wkts in hand thanks to that 48 ball 50 innings. Do you really want to use this template to build the team when you've likes of Jaiswal and Abhishek?

 

Relying on Bumrah or any bowler to go through a tourney with a RR of 4 in T20s is not going to happen anytime soon. I would rather build a team where we don't have to rely on such miracles as that's the reason we failed to win a trophy for more than a decade. We used to put up below-par totals and expect bowlers to bail us out. I would rather have a team with Jaiswal and Abhishek as openers to get us above-par totals. Gill shouldn't bat anywhere else than 3 else we'll be wasting someone like Abhishek.

Bhumrah had Zaheer kind of WC, when ever Ind needed a wkt Ind brought them in and they got the results.

 

 

[TellTheTruth]

8 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Let's not use exception to prove a rule. It was brilliance of Bumrah which won us the match, and the tourney. SA needed 30 off 30 with 6 wkts in hand thanks to that 48 ball 50 innings. Do you really want to use this template to build the team when you've likes of Jaiswal and Abhishek?

 

Relying on Bumrah or any bowler to go through a tourney with a RR of 4 in T20s is not going to happen anytime soon. I would rather build a team where we don't have to rely on such miracles as that's the reason we failed to win a trophy for more than a decade. We used to put up below-par totals and expect bowlers to bail us out. I would rather have a team with Jaiswal and Abhishek as openers to get us above-par totals. Gill shouldn't bat anywhere else than 3 else we'll be wasting someone like Abhishek.

 

But generally the winning team in t20 world cup finals have a top order player playing those marlon Samuel's type slow 50s rather then swashbuckling 20 ball 50s. 

 

I have jaiswal and abishek a head of shubman in t20s too but in the zimbabwe india series abishek played a lot of dumb shots expecially when chasing that low total in the first t20. Strike rate is good but you also have to bat smarter and according to the situation. Hopefully he learn more balance the more matches he plays.  Wickets in hand and batting depth is more important than top order strike rate. 

[Ultimate_Game]

1 minute ago, tapandrun said:

Bhumrah had Zaheer kind of WC, when ever Ind needed a wkt Ind brought them in and they got the results.

 

 

 

I would say much better. Zaheer was still taken apart at the death, especially in the WC final. He conceded 50 from his final 5 after going for barely 9 in his first 5. But in case of Bumrah, batsmen were afraid to attack him even though it was T20! Have never seen any bowler impose himself and stamp his authority on a tourney the way Bumrah did. Bumrah was so good that his stats in T20s would actually be good even for ODIs!

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, TellTheTruth said:

 

But generally the winning team in t20 world cup finals have a top order player playing those marlon Samuel's type slow 50s rather then swashbuckling 20 ball 50s. 

 

I have jaiswal and abishek a head of shubman in t20s too but in the zimbabwe india series abishek played a lot of dumb shots expecially when chasing that low total in the first t20. Strike rate is good but you also have to bat smarter and according to the situation. Hopefully he learn more balance the more matches he plays.  Wickets in hand and batting depth is more important than top order strike rate. 

 

Fair enough and that's why I would prefer Gill to bat at 3, not open. Samuels never opened for WI IIRC. And even Kohli's best innings came at 3. Gill has a very similar game and approach to batting. That's why if he has to play, he should bat at 3 and not open.

 

Jaiswal and Abhishek are much better at attacking the bowlers in PP. And Gill should come in at 3. We have to maximize PP overs and Jaiswal-Abhishek combo is the best one to do so with maybe Gill at 3. That way we play everyone to their strengths instead of playing Abhishek at 3.

[Ultimate_Game]

9 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Why? Because we overvalue L/R opening combo. Silliness.

 

I want a LHB/RHB combo if the batters are comparable. But if you've likes of say Sehwag-Tendulkar, or Warner-Head, go ith them.

 

I personally prefer lefties at the top as most bowlers need to adjust to bowl to lefties and you've more chances of a freebie. Plus we can always have Gill at 3 for the left-right combo when the 1st wkt falls

[tapandrun]

36 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

I think you're confusing formats. Yes, Gill was amazing in Aus in 2020-21 like most of our youngsters. ButT20s is a different game. Do you really think Gill is suited to be a T20I opener ahead of Jaiswal and Abhishek? Abhishek scored a 40 ball 100 and was demoted to no. 3 the very next day and we saw Gill take 50 balls to score 65! We don't another case of a player being bigger than the game to the detriment of the team. That was the reason we had a below-par Kohli open the innings in WT20 with Jaiswal sitting on the bench.

 

Do you want a similar scenario played out in WT20 in 2026 where Gill opens and Abhishek sits on the bench? Given the next WT20 is in India and we've all seen Abhishek's performances in SMA and IPL recently. It wasn't a flash in the pan. Abhishek is a high impact player who averages 30 but with a SR of 170+. He'll more likely than not get you off to a flier and possibly win you games in PP itself similar to Travis Head. We need to back such players as if we push Abhishek down the order because of Gill's performances in Tests and ODIs, we lose a high impact player in T20Is, and probably the most impactful batsman we have.

 

Gill is more suited to open in ODIs just like Sai Sudarshan. Or if the team management really wants him to play in T20Is the only spot he can bat is at 3. Not Abhishek at 3 but Gill. Ideally he shouldn't be there in T20Is as his natural game is simply not suited to the modern T20 and the difference in Jaiswal/Abhishek and his batting shows it clearly. Gill belongs to Kohli's school of batting which was acceptable till mid 2010s but now we need batters, especially openers in the mold of Head, Warner, Buttler etc. Abhishek and Jaiswal are that.

With 350 being scored regularly in ODIs and 400 is nt a far fetched dream from team and 320 is just par scores, Should a TM consider a GIll and Sudarshan kind (not particularly them players like them) of batter in top 3 ? One reason of GT being poor was the lack of power in their batting.

GIll and Sudarshan are not 2/3 overs bowlers too. 

 

How most are trying to build a T20 team right now is to have a Wkt-batter and somewhat a batter in top 3 who can bowl 2/3if required and a floater who can play from #1-5 if needed. Try getting the batting depth to 7, just saw in IPL having extra batter can big impact in the mind set-up of batters. Yes team will find mitigate this disadvantage by getting more proper allrounders or pure match winners

 

Jaiswal/Abhishek theoretically provides chances of closing/winning the matches for the team in just PP as SRH/KKR did, it was catching up game for oppositions from there on. Yes teams will come-up with their plans to counter these may be have similar kind of batters in their team to minimize the gap. or bring in some strategy to damage in PP.

 

 

 

[nevada]

Very valid concern but remember that Gambhir is coach. He won't tolerate such nonsense. 

[tapandrun]

4 minutes ago, nevada said:

Very valid concern but remember that Gambhir is coach. He won't tolerate such nonsense. 

He had KL as Lsg's captain 

[BacktoCricaddict]

52 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

I want a LHB/RHB combo if the batters are comparable. But if you've likes of say Sehwag-Tendulkar, or Warner-Head, go ith them.

 

I personally prefer lefties at the top as most bowlers need to adjust to bowl to lefties and you've more chances of a freebie. Plus we can always have Gill at 3 for the left-right combo when the 1st wkt falls

You're preaching to the choir, bhai. But traditional thinking is hard to combat.

Edited July 17, 2024 by BacktoCricaddict

[Vk1]

52 minutes ago, TellTheTruth said:

 

But generally the winning team in t20 world cup finals have a top order player playing those marlon Samuel's type slow 50s rather then swashbuckling 20 ball 50s. 

 

I have jaiswal and abishek a head of shubman in t20s too but in the zimbabwe india series abishek played a lot of dumb shots expecially when chasing that low total in the first t20. Strike rate is good but you also have to bat smarter and according to the situation. Hopefully he learn more balance the more matches he plays.  Wickets in hand and batting depth is more important than top order strike rate. 

but what about those semi-finals which we lost due to stat padders.. final is usually a lottery but until then you cannot have players with Gill kind of attitude in T20Is