India's test XI of this millennium ( post 2000)

[Muloghonto]

7 hours ago, putrevus said:

I still see Sachin fans going all out to  paint Sachin in to some great batsman who was victimized by lack of bowling.

 

Steady Eddies play for their stats nothing else. 
 

These two tests both against SA show how Sachin’s stats rarely helped his team.

 

first one is where he got his record 50 test 100 in 2010 in SA 

 

our genius goes missing in first innings but when match is gone completely out of hand and loss was a formality he scores 111 .

Second  Nagpur test in 2010

 

Our genius was again a no show in first innings where Sehwag needed some help to fight against Steyn.

 

But promptly shows up in second innings to get his 100 when match was gone.

 

 

On paper our  genius got two 100s but none of them were any good to the team.

 

 His career of 200 tests is full of matches like these.

 

When you play 200 tests you are bound to  score runs in some wins.

 

Ah yes, a steady eddy is the kind of guy who plays a 4th innings century vs the two Ws and Saqlain at his peak.

A batsman who plays 200 tests is bound to have runs made in losses. 

 

Doesn't change the fact that he is the best batsman ever since the Don and has faced more under 24 average bowlers in his career than any other batsman in history of test cricket.

 

[Kron]

7 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Ah yes, a steady eddy is the kind of guy who plays a 4th innings century vs the two Ws and Saqlain at his peak.

A batsman who plays 200 tests is bound to have runs made in losses. 

 

Doesn't change the fact that he is the best batsman ever since the Don and has faced more under 24 average bowlers in his career than any other batsman in history of test cricket.

 

Case can be made for both. Both Sachin and kohli choked and failed to perform in a series defining innings vs sea away from home. 

 

Could say pre 2005 to 2010 Sachin had very weak bowling to support him though and that he was himself declining due to age. 

 

If Sachin had Asian best ever bowling attack of all time post 2015 to 2022 then I am certain the numbers would be different. 

 

I do put Sachin well above kohli in tests. Kohli at his absolute peak was one of the best ever but his peak was too short like his peepee.

[singhvivek141]

On 8/3/2024 at 2:03 PM, putrevus said:

I still see Sachin fans going all out to  paint Sachin in to some great batsman who was victimized by lack of bowling.

 

Steady Eddies play for their stats nothing else. 
 

These two tests both against SA show how Sachin’s stats rarely helped his team.

 

first one is where he got his record 50 test 100 in 2010 in SA 

 

our genius goes missing in first innings but when match is gone completely out of hand and loss was a formality he scores 111 .

Second  Nagpur test in 2010

 

Our genius was again a no show in first innings where Sehwag needed some help to fight against Steyn.

 

But promptly shows up in second innings to get his 100 when match was gone.

 

 

On paper our  genius got two 100s but none of them were any good to the team.

 

 His career of 200 tests is full of matches like these.

 

When you play 200 tests you are bound to  score runs in some wins.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-south-africa-2001-02-62291/south-africa-vs-india-1st-test-63951/live-cricket-score

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-south-africa-1992-93-62289/south-africa-vs-india-2nd-test-63587/live-cricket-score

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-south-africa-1996-97-62290/south-africa-vs-india-2nd-test-63737/live-cricket-score

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-south-africa-2010-11-463136/south-africa-vs-india-3rd-test-463148/live-cricket-score

 

Some of the knock which Sachin played in SA in first inns.

They either resulted in loss or in draw. The last one he played in 2011 at age of 38.

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-south-africa-2001-02-62291/south-africa-vs-india-1st-test-63951/live-cricket-score

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-south-africa-1992-93-62289/south-africa-vs-india-2nd-test-63587/live-cricket-score

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-south-africa-1996-97-62290/south-africa-vs-india-2nd-test-63737/live-cricket-score

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-south-africa-2010-11-463136/south-africa-vs-india-3rd-test-463148/live-cricket-score

 

Some of the knock which Sachin played in SA in first inns.

They either resulted in loss or in draw. The last one he played in 2011 at age of 38.

Kapil Dev scored 129 with one hand in SA when his team was 31/6 with Sachin as one of those 6 batsman in 1992-93 series

 

I never said  Sachin is bad player, he is most talented batsman I have seen, he did not have any weakness.

 

But he never was able to raise his game to match his talent.

 

I don't rate Fab 4 as a great batting unit as they never had mental toughness  to raise their game.They had comparable stats like Aussie lineups only difference was their mental toughness.

 

Unlike the recent batting linup of Rahane and Pujara, who are  just not in same league as those fab five.

 

How did Kallis play in 2011 Cape town test with bad back and Bhajji making it nightmare to RHB.

 

 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Kapil Dev scored 129 with one hand in SA when his team was 31/6 with Sachin as one of those 6 batsman in 1992-93 series

 

I never said  Sachin is bad player, he is most talented batsman I have seen, he did not have any weakness.

 

But he never was able to raise his game to match his talent.

 

I don't rate Fab 4 as a great batting unit as they never had mental toughness  to raise their game.They had comparable stats like Aussie lineups only difference was their mental toughness.

 

Unlike the recent batting linup of Rahane and Pujara, who are  just not in same league as those fab five.

 

How did Kallis play in 2011 Cape town test with bad back and Bhajji making it nightmare to RHB.

I don't think Sachin was mentally weak, its just that India wasn't a very strong team in that era..so once he gets out there was literally no one to save the team.

 

Few examples I reckon

1. 1996 ODI WC SF...Once Sachin got out at 65, entire team collapsed and from 98/1 we became 120/8. It was a very common occurance back then, once Sachin is out. It's all over.

 

2. 2000 ICC Knockout Trophy...Sachin & Ganguly gave a phenomenal start. Sachin I think got runout at 67 and then the team which was looking to hit 290-300 ended around 250-255 (don't remember exactly). Chris Cairns won match for NZ.

 

If we had a strong team back then, the above 2 matches could have been way more competitive. Indian bowling attack was simply a pop-gun for most part of his career.

 

Srinath-Kumble were the only good bowlers..rest 30 overs were literally joke.

 

In 2003 WC too, Zak was decentish, Srinath was on his last legs and Nehra had 30 wickets in 32 games before the start of WC. You can sum up our bowling. Bhajji too was inexperienced.

 

It was only from 2006-07 when we had emergence of fast bowlers and slowly we got a settled unit by 2009-10.

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Kapil Dev scored 129 with one hand in SA when his team was 31/6 with Sachin as one of those 6 batsman in 1992-93 series

Sachin was barely 18 bro..also unlike now we didn't have that many equipments and conditions to replicate those games. Many ex cricketers have talked about lack of balls which can be used to practice.

 

SA was toughest tour for most of our batters until 2012-13. In 1992 we had barely any practice.

[putrevus]

13 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

I don't think Sachin was mentally weak, its just that India wasn't a very strong team in that era..so once he gets out there was literally no one to save the team.

 

Few examples I reckon

1. 1996 ODI WC SF...Once Sachin got out at 65, entire team collapsed and from 98/1 we became 120/8. It was a very common occurance back then, once Sachin is out. It's all over.

 

2. 2000 ICC Knockout Trophy...Sachin & Ganguly gave a phenomenal start. Sachin I think got runout at 67 and then the team which was looking to hit 290-300 ended around 250-255 (don't remember exactly). Chris Cairns won match for NZ.

 

If we had a strong team back then, the above 2 matches could have been way more competitive. Indian bowling attack was simply a pop-gun for most part of his career.

 

Srinath-Kumble were the only good bowlers..rest 30 overs were literally joke.

 

In 2003 WC too, Zak was decentish, Srinath was on his last legs and Nehra had 30 wickets in 32 games before the start of WC. You can sum up our bowling. Bhajji too was inexperienced.

 

It was only from 2006-07 when we had emergence of fast bowlers and slowly we got a settled unit by 2009-10.

You keep citing his good games.He flopped in 1996 Qfs against Pakistan where his team carried him to Sfs. 

 

Samething ICC knock out tournament in SF against SA.Ganguly carried the team to finals  with his 141 in SFs and also again in 2003 CT semi finals.

 

2011 finals India was good enought o win with Tendulkar going for low score.

 

 

Show me one match where eith Kohli or Rohit flopped and India won the match in any odi knock out match in last decade.

 

Till recent t20 world cup Kohli was the lone ranger . Compared to what we had recently in last decade Indian batting was far more balanced and top order failure was not death knell.

 

2003 finals I give them pass as 353 was out of reach again, Ganguly cowardly decision to bowl first based on what happened in first match was the reason.

 

Aussies got away with completely inept bowling lineup in that finals.

 

[putrevus]

17 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Sachin was barely 18 bro..also unlike now we didn't have that many equipments and conditions to replicate those games. Many ex cricketers have talked about lack of balls which can be used to practice.

 

SA was toughest tour for most of our batters until 2012-13. In 1992 we had barely any practice.

You just cited his 100 in the same series as his great knock .But when he fails he becomes only 18 year old.

 

Sachin played 200 tests . You cannot pick and chose only when he plays well.

 

I never said he was not a great player. I just don't think he is greatest even in test cricket.

 

Odis it is not even a question. Plus this notion that he was victim of weak bowling or weak batting lineup is also not true.

[singhvivek141]

44 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You just cited his 100 in the same series as his great knock .But when he fails he becomes only 18 year old.

 

Sachin played 200 tests . You cannot pick and chose only when he plays well.

 

I never said he was not a great player. I just don't think he is greatest even in test cricket.

 

Odis it is not even a question. Plus this notion that he was victim of weak bowling or weak batting lineup is also not true.

What I meant was Sachin was able to score runs at that series despite being an 18 y/o. Ofcourse you can't expect him to make runs in everygame. 

 

Everyone will have failures at a tender age. Down the line 10-15 years someone else will rise as a superstar and his fans will make a mockery Kohli's failures in 2014 Eng. Ignoring the fact that it was his first series in England...Shami too had a pretty avg series in NZ, England and Australia on his first tour.

Edited August 4, 2024 by singhvivek141

[Kron]

42 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You keep citing his good games.He flopped in 1996 Qfs against Pakistan where his team carried him to Sfs. 

 

Samething ICC knock out tournament in SF against SA.Ganguly carried the team to finals  with his 141 in SFs and also again in 2003 CT semi finals.

 

2011 finals India was good enought o win with Tendulkar going for low score.

 

 

Show me one match where eith Kohli or Rohit flopped and India won the match in any odi knock out match in last decade.

 

Till recent t20 world cup Kohli was the lone ranger . Compared to what we had recently in last decade Indian batting was far more balanced and top order failure was not death knell.

 

2003 finals I give them pass as 353 was out of reach again, Ganguly cowardly decision to bowl first based on what happened in first match was the reason.

 

Aussies got away with completely inept bowling lineup in that finals.

 

Reverse is also yrue. Kohli averages 33 in ko stages for odi

 

Why couldn't great kohli step up when it mattered in odi? Apart from 2013 in odi icc events 

Edited August 4, 2024 by Kron

[singhvivek141]

32 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You keep citing his good games.He flopped in 1996 Qfs against Pakistan where his team carried him to Sfs. 

 

Samething ICC knock out tournament in SF against SA.Ganguly carried the team to finals  with his 141 in SFs and also again in 2003 CT semi finals.

 

2011 finals India was good enought o win with Tendulkar going for low score.

 

Show me one match where eith Kohli or Rohit flopped and India won the match in any odi knock out match in last decade.

 

Till recent t20 world cup Kohli was the lone ranger . Compared to what we had recently in last decade Indian batting was far more balanced and top order failure was not death knell.

 

2003 finals I give them pass as 353 was out of reach again, Ganguly cowardly decision to bowl first based on what happened in first match was the reason.

 

Aussies got away with completely inept bowling lineup in that finals.

 

1996 ODI WC wasn't Sachin was the highest scorer for India ? He scored runs vs Australia, vs SL as well. 

Sachin destroyed the Pak bowling attack in 2003, scored runs vs England, vs Sri Lanka. 

 

He will fail in odd games here and there. He has a 24 year long career, which will have its highs and lows. No batter in the world can score always.

That's where other will also have to buckle up. Sachin had negligible support and had a weak team..batting became strong when Ganguly and later Yuvi-MS joined. Bowling actually became a force only from 2006-07 onwards.

 

We lost 2023 ODI WC inspite of Rohit & Kohli scoring in finals, why..because no one performed. That's the living proof that you need others as well to perform. Specially the bowlers. 

 

This 20WC is another prime example where bowlers pulled the match back from the jaws of defeat.

[Muloghonto]

On 8/3/2024 at 5:33 PM, Kron said:

Case can be made for both. Both Sachin and kohli choked and failed to perform in a series defining innings vs sea away from home. 

 

Could say pre 2005 to 2010 Sachin had very weak bowling to support him though and that he was himself declining due to age. 

 

If Sachin had Asian best ever bowling attack of all time post 2015 to 2022 then I am certain the numbers would be different. 

 

I do put Sachin well above kohli in tests. Kohli at his absolute peak was one of the best ever but his peak was too short like his peepee.

There is no such thing as series defining innings unless you have bowling support. Which Tendulkar never did. 

As i said, you simply do not leave out the best ever test batsman in the post world-war era of a lineup. Its just that simple.

 

[Muloghonto]

On 8/4/2024 at 6:44 AM, putrevus said:

You just cited his 100 in the same series as his great knock .But when he fails he becomes only 18 year old.

 

Sachin played 200 tests . You cannot pick and chose only when he plays well.

 

I never said he was not a great player. I just don't think he is greatest even in test cricket.

 

Odis it is not even a question. Plus this notion that he was victim of weak bowling or weak batting lineup is also not true.

 

Any batsman who averages 59+ in the second toughest era for batting, over 150 tests spanning 19 years, while facing the most number of under 24 average bowlers in his career, while boasting one of the best ever records away from home for a batsman is the best batsman ever, no questions asked. Only the Don is comparable. 

 

[putrevus]

6 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Any batsman who averages 59+ in the second toughest era for batting, over 150 tests spanning 19 years, while facing the most number of under 24 average bowlers in his career, while boasting one of the best ever records away from home for a batsman is the best batsman ever, no questions asked. Only the Don is comparable. 

 

We already had this conversation, Sachin rarely faced  great bowling attacks .if he did and scored he would  have cracked 900 Rating .

 

No he is not best test batsmen since Bradman nor he is best odi batsman.

Edited August 6, 2024 by putrevus

[zen]

Sehwag 

Pujara 

Dravid

Kohli

Sachin 

VVS

Pant 

Kumble 

Srinath 

Shami

Bumrah 

 

[Kron]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

There is no such thing as series defining innings unless you have bowling support. Which Tendulkar never did. 

As i said, you simply do not leave out the best ever test batsman in the post world-war era of a lineup. Its just that simple.

 

Best player should have one match winning innings in SA, Australia no? 

 

Then why is he the best if he can't even do that? Atleast in one series. I agree bowling support was not good till about 2005. 

But the best ever player should be able to carry the team like Smith did no? He dint in a series against aus or SA away from home. 

 

Yes he is better than kogli in tests but that not the issue here. 

[Rightarmfast]

14 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Any batsman who averages 59+ in the second toughest era for batting, over 150 tests spanning 19 years, while facing the most number of under 24 average bowlers in his career, while boasting one of the best ever records away from home for a batsman is the best batsman ever, no questions asked. Only the Don is comparable. 

 

You do make a lot of sense. Only when it comes to arguing with me, you lose the articulation. Otherwise, pretty good logic

[R!TTER]

How would you define great bowling attacks? One Pat Cummins & the 3 stooges? Or peak WI with their 4 pacers

 

If you're using the latter as a metric then no other team qualifies! Because even Oz had McWarne & their 3-4th bowlers were generally much much worse. Oz never fielded a side with more than 2 great test bowlers in my memory, none except WI did that

[Majestic]

20 hours ago, zen said:

Sehwag 

Pujara 

Dravid

Kohli

Sachin 

VVS

Pant 

Kumble 

Srinath 

Shami

Bumrah 

 

Weren't you that guy who would usually pick players based on their batting positions while making an all time XI?

[Muloghonto]

19 hours ago, Kron said:

Best player should have one match winning innings in SA, Australia no? 

 

Then why is he the best if he can't even do that? Atleast in one series. I agree bowling support was not good till about 2005. 

But the best ever player should be able to carry the team like Smith did no? He dint in a series against aus or SA away from home. 

 

Yes he is better than kogli in tests but that not the issue here. 

 

There is no such thing as a matchwinning innings in test cricket. You cant win matches, if bowlers dont take 20 wickets. Not till 2005 ? Dude, bowling support was even worse after 2005, as Kumble declined and Zak is not as good as Srinath.