How Data fuelled India to T20 World Cup 2024 title

[Haarkarjeetgaye]

This almost failed 

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

How many T20 WCs Dhoni lost?

Went to two finals.Won one.

[Haarkarjeetgaye]

As per Analytics, we should have given up when 5 overs were left in the 2024 final

[Nikhil_cric]

31 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Went to two finals.Won one.

This is a disingenuous answer. We went to 6 World T20's and won only 1 under Dhoni.

 

In fact, didn't even make KO's in 3 of them. 

 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

19 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

This is a disingenuous answer. We went to 6 World T20's and won only 1 under Dhoni.

 

In fact, didn't even make KO's in 3 of them. 

 

 

 

 

Yea. Crap team. Twice bounced out by pace bowlers. Shambolic. But loss in 2014 wsa pathetic though. WInnable match. 

[Nikhil_cric]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Yea. Crap team. Twice bounced out by pace bowlers. Shambolic. But loss in 2014 wsa pathetic though. WInnable match. 

Fair but that argument could be made for Rohit in 2022 as well especially given the conditions in Australia?

[Lord]

Promoting Axar up the order definitely was a Dravid move and we benefitted from it

 

No coach can bring revolutionary changes with the power star players hold.

[Stan AF]

23 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

This is a disingenuous answer. We went to 6 World T20's and won only 1 under Dhoni.

 

In fact, didn't even make KO's in 3 of them. 

 

 

 

 

A hatrick at that actually. 2009, 10 & 12.

How he held on to that job after all that is not a mystery.

[diga]

40 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

A hatrick at that actually. 2009, 10 & 12.

How he held on to that job after all that is not a mystery.

Lack of alternatives TINA factor

[Ultimate_Game]

Really can't understand what new Dravid and team learned from this "data and analytics" approach. It's pretty apparent that Indian team has done well when they had multi-dimensional players and had depth in their batting. Look at our successes over the years...

 

1. 1983-87: We had players like Kapil, Binny, Madan Lal, Amarnath, Shastri etc. who could bowl and bat. That depth won them the 83 WC and 85 WCC.

 

2. 2007-2014: We had likes of Yuvraj, Raina, Sehwag, Irfan Pathan, Yusuf Pathan, Tendulkar etc. who could bat and roll their arms over giving us flexibility and batting depth. This backed with a wkt keeper who was a proper batsman in Dhoni resulted in us winning 2007 WT20, 2011 WC and 2013 CT.

 

Post 2015 we had one dimensional teams where batsmen couldn't bowl at all, and bowlers who couldn't bat. And the team management didn't do anything to address the balance and we essentially became RCB of world cricket with top heavy batting, and our results replicated RCB's results. The moment we added depth to the team by playing Axar and Dube (even though Dube isn't that great) and bat deep till 8, we won the WT20.

 

I wonder why this common sense approach wasn't apparent to the "genius" Dravid, and the selectors. Why else do you think fans are asking for likes of Abhishek, Parag, Rinku, Nitish Reddy, Suthar to be fast tracked? It is so that we can move away from one dimensional players (unless they're like Bumrah, Shami or Jaiswal) and they can contribute in multiple ways. You don't need analytics to tell this, and if it does then you didn't deserve to be a coach in the first place.

[Lord]

Just now, Ultimate_Game said:

Really can't understand what new Dravid and team learned from this "data and analytics" approach. It's pretty apparent that Indian team has done well when they had multi-dimensional players and had depth in their batting. Look at our successes over the years...

 

1. 1983-87: We had players like Kapil, Binny, Madan Lal, Amarnath, Shastri etc. who could bowl and bat. That depth won them the 83 WC and 85 WCC.

 

2. 2007-2014: We had likes of Yuvraj, Raina, Sehwag, Irfan Pathan, Yusuf Pathan, Tendulkar etc. who could bat and roll their arms over giving us flexibility and batting depth. This backed with a wkt keeper who was a proper batsman in Dhoni resulted in us winning 2007 WT20, 2011 WC and 2013 CT.

 

Post 2015 we had one dimensional teams where batsmen couldn't bowl at all, and bowlers who couldn't bat. And the team management didn't do anything to address the balance and we essentially became RCB of world cricket with top heavy batting, and our results replicated RCB's results. The moment we added depth to the team by playing Axar and Dube (even though Dube isn't that great) and bat deep till 8, we won the WT20.

 

I wonder why this common sense approach wasn't apparent to the "genius" Dravid, and the selectors. Why else do you think fans are asking for likes of Abhishek, Parag, Rinku, Nitish Reddy, Suthar to be fast tracked? It is so that we can move away from one dimensional players (unless they're like Bumrah, Shami or Jaiswal) and they can contribute in multiple ways. You don't need analytics to tell this, and if it does then you didn't deserve to be a coach in the first place.

 

You are right but still doing commonsense thing deserves credit as previous coach Shastri never tried such a thing.

 

Analytics come in for more subtle things like promoting Axar. To do it in a final is a bold move.

 

In the end its the players who have to do well. Coaches' role is overhyped in Indian cricket. Coach can only do so much

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Lord said:

 

You are right but still doing commonsense thing deserves credit as previous coach Shastri never tried such a thing.

 

Analytics come in for more subtle things like promoting Axar. To do it in a final is a bold move.

 

In the end its the players who have to do well. Coaches' role is overhyped in Indian cricket. Coach can only do so much

 

Papu is clutch. So he delivered. If you randomly promote KL Rahul he will fail sure shot which was what Dravid doing .

[Lord]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

 

Papu is clutch. So he delivered. If you randomly promote KL Rahul he will fail sure shot which was what Dravid doing .

When did he promote KL? Infact KL was playing since Shastri days and dropped under Dravid-Rohit. And immediately we won WT20

[putrevus]

15 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

You are right but still doing commonsense thing deserves credit as previous coach Shastri never tried such a thing.

 

Analytics come in for more subtle things like promoting Axar. To do it in a final is a bold move.

 

In the end its the players who have to do well. Coaches' role is overhyped in Indian cricket. Coach can only do so much

Did Shastri ask, Dhoni to bat like idiot in 2019.He did promote Pant in 2019 . Any Decent WK batsman was winning that match in 2019 semifinal.

 

Where was Dravid Subtle thing when he kept opening with KL rahul in last t20 world cup in Australia.He bowled Axar in same spot after 3 overs in 2024 seminfals.Difference was Butler got out in 2024  .Then whole roof caved in for England.

 

I would take Shastri over Dravid anyday.

 

Success has many fathers.

Edited September 13, 2024 by putrevus

[Lord]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

Did Shastri ask, Dhoni to bat like idiot in 2019.He did promote Pant in 2019 . Any Decent WK batsman was winning that match in 2019 semifinal.

 

Where was Dravid Subtle thing when he kept opening with KL rahul in last t20 world cup in Australia.He bowled Axar in same spot after 3 overs in 2024 seminfals.Difference was Butler got out in 2024  .Then whole roof caved in for England.

 

I would take Shastri over Dravid anyday.

 

Success has many fathers.

 

KL was opening under Shastri too. Everything cant be changed by new coach. Eventually he was dropped. Pant was nowhere near in the picture in the runup to the WC 

2019. Shastri kept playing Rayudu and then dropped him for WC and played VJS. Then dropped him too and played young Pant in semis. Great planning

 

Axar is used to bowling with new ball in T20s. Just because it failed once doesnt mean its wrong planning.

 

What has Shastri done in LOIs? We lost 2 winnable tourneys under him alongwith surrender in WTC with a full strength team.

 

 

[Ultimate_Game]

14 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

You are right but still doing commonsense thing deserves credit as previous coach Shastri never tried such a thing.

 

Analytics come in for more subtle things like promoting Axar. To do it in a final is a bold move.

 

In the end its the players who have to do well. Coaches' role is overhyped in Indian cricket. Coach can only do so much

 

I hear you. But you need to have the foundations in place before you start using more advanced techniques. I mean you should be able to crawl before you walk. If the team structure is broken, no amount of analytics and moneyball will help you.

 

Comparing to Shastri is a pretty low bar. Shastri is just a rah rah guy who'll give rousing speeches and that's about it. He's closer to the padosi coaches who talk up "jazba", junoon" etc. We literally wasted a decade of Bumrah and Shami coz we let Kohli and team management have their way with lop sided, top heavy team with no flexibility. They made India into a laughing stock the same way RCB is a joke in IPL.

 

If they couldn't understand this simple thing for more than a decade and it needed stats & analytics for them to understand it, I'm scared how pathetic our system is. And even now they're not getting guys like Abhishek in the team and prioritizing one-dimensional players like Ruturaj and Gill over him. Don'tthink they learned anything and I doubt we ever change. 

[Nikhil_cric]

30 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Really can't understand what new Dravid and team learned from this "data and analytics" approach. It's pretty apparent that Indian team has done well when they had multi-dimensional players and had depth in their batting. Look at our successes over the years...

 

1. 1983-87: We had players like Kapil, Binny, Madan Lal, Amarnath, Shastri etc. who could bowl and bat. That depth won them the 83 WC and 85 WCC.

 

2. 2007-2014: We had likes of Yuvraj, Raina, Sehwag, Irfan Pathan, Yusuf Pathan, Tendulkar etc. who could bat and roll their arms over giving us flexibility and batting depth. This backed with a wkt keeper who was a proper batsman in Dhoni resulted in us winning 2007 WT20, 2011 WC and 2013 CT.

 

Post 2015 we had one dimensional teams where batsmen couldn't bowl at all, and bowlers who couldn't bat. And the team management didn't do anything to address the balance and we essentially became RCB of world cricket with top heavy batting, and our results replicated RCB's results. The moment we added depth to the team by playing Axar and Dube (even though Dube isn't that great) and bat deep till 8, we won the WT20.

 

I wonder why this common sense approach wasn't apparent to the "genius" Dravid, and the selectors. Why else do you think fans are asking for likes of Abhishek, Parag, Rinku, Nitish Reddy, Suthar to be fast tracked? It is so that we can move away from one dimensional players (unless they're like Bumrah, Shami or Jaiswal) and they can contribute in multiple ways. You don't need analytics to tell this, and if it does then you didn't deserve to be a coach in the first place.

You are talking about selection though. 

 

It's harder to influence selection in India. And there's no evidence that selectors are even open to a deeper use of analytics for selection. 

 

 

This is more about getting the best out of the players and targeting the weaknesses of the opposition.

 

What Himanish was saying was that ball tracking data was not being used in Indian cricket before 2021.

 

Only video analysis and shot type data were being used for batters. 

 

Against spin , for instance, Indian batters barely used to employ the sweep. 

 

There's been a greater use of the sweep from all Indian batters after this regime came in. 

 

It's been a conscious shift over a period of time. 

 

 

 

 

[putrevus]

12 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

KL was opening under Shastri too. Everything cant be changed by new coach. Eventually he was dropped. Pant was nowhere near in the picture in the runup to the WC 

2019. Shastri kept playing Rayudu and then dropped him for WC and played VJS. Then dropped him too and played young Pant in semis. Great planning

 

Axar is used to bowling with new ball in T20s. Just because it failed once doesnt mean its wrong planning.

 

What has Shastri done in LOIs? We lost 2 winnable tourneys under him alongwith surrender in WTC with a full strength team.

 

 

VJS was injured , Dhawan was opening under Shastri, he also got injured. Rahul was playing in middle order till Dhawan was injured.Losing one of the main batsmen who was money in ICC events  is a big loss.

 

Nothing wrong in discarding Rayudu who was useless.

 

Shastri got saddled with useless Dhoni, he would done lot better with different keeper.

 

He atleast did not try to tamper with pitch and lose to an inferior Aussie team which had no business of winning.

 

Shastri was the architect for Indian fast bowling renaissance which Dravid royally screwed it in tests.

 

What he did in Gabba test  that too after 36 all out itself is proof enough of his  ability to raise the level of his team..

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2024 by putrevus

[Ultimate_Game]

3 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

You are talking about selection though. 

 

It's harder to influence selection in India. And there's no evidence that selectors are even open to a deeper use of analytics for selection. 

 

 

This is more about getting the best out of the players and targeting the weaknesses of the opposition.

 

What Himanish was saying was that ball tracking data was not being used in Indian cricket before 2021.

 

Only video analysis and shot type data were being used for batters. 

 

Against spin , for instance, Indian batters barely used to employ the sweep. 

 

There's been a greater use of the sweep from all Indian batters after this regime came in. 

 

It's been a conscious shift over a period of time. 

 

 

 

 

 

I get that. But my point is that for you to make use of these techniques, you have to get the foundations right for a better chance at success. Pick the team based on stats & analytics. Instead of picking washed up and senior players and then apply analytics, they should focus on getting the right players in the team. And then use other techniques on top of it.

 

This is the perfect time to make this change. Kick out the seniors, who're almost on their way out and put this analytics & performance driven culture in place before we build up new stars in likes of Gill. They're trying to make the same mistakes by pushing Gill in every format but they've the time to make system bigger than the players. If they miss this window of opportunity, it would be another 15 years of Gill and the next generation of undroppables instead of focusing on winning the trophies.

[Lord]

1 minute ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

I get that. But my point is that for you to make use of these techniques, you have to get the foundations right for a better chance at success. Pick the team based on stats & analytics. Instead of picking washed up and senior players and then apply analytics, they should focus on getting the right players in the team. And then use other techniques on top of it.

 

This is the perfect time to make this change. Kick out the seniors, who're almost on their way out and put this analytics & performance driven culture in place before we build up new stars in likes of Gill. They're trying to make the same mistakes by pushing Gill in every format but they've the time to make system bigger than the players. If they miss this window of opportunity, it would be another 15 years of Gill and the next generation of undroppables instead of focusing on winning the trophies.

 

Star culture will always be there in Indian cricket sadly. We can just hope those stars keep performing