Curious case of Waqar's career - avg 18 in first 32 tests and avg 28 in next 55

[New guy]

15 minutes ago, First class said:

Wasim is popular and Waqar not so popular in India for non-cricketing reason . 

Or Indians are able to look at actual numbers, stats and impact.

 

No one in the entire world considers waqar anywhere close to Wasim, nothing to do with politics.

[New guy]

32 minutes ago, First class said:

Bumbra is very good bowler and truly on its way to a possible AGB, depending on his longevity and the form , but not there yet. He is not at Waqar's level, yet, but might make it to that level. I would pick Waqar ahead of Wasim in my 11. 

 

Extreme pace, accuracy and swing , and the most rhythmic and beautiful action of all time, that was Waqar Younis , 

 

 

How on earth is he not on waqar of level?

 

 

There have been stats shown multiple times that waqar bullied mostly minnows and has a pathetic record against the big teams,  had a pathetic record away from home. His home and away difference and big teams and minnow difference is huge.

 

England was really weak during his time and even then he only had a couple of performances

 

 

 

Meanwhile bumrah has been excelling against the best teams in his era and his stats is similar against big teams and weak teams and home and away.

Edited January 12, 2025 by New guy

[raki05]

36 minutes ago, First class said:

Bumbra is very good bowler and truly on its way to a possible AGB, depending on his longevity and the form , but not there yet. He is not at Waqar's level, yet, but might make it to that level. I would pick Waqar ahead of Wasim in my 11. 

 

Extreme pace, accuracy and swing , and the most rhythmic and beautiful action of all time, that was Waqar Younis , 

 

 

On what basis Waqtis ahead of bumrah if compare same number of test and and performance against sena. As given earlier he was crazy good against minows and crazy avg against india(still minow),aus,sa and eng.

Edited January 12, 2025 by raki05

[Ultimate_Game]

23 minutes ago, First class said:

Wasim is popular and Waqar not so popular in India for non-cricketing reason . 

 

Actually for cricketing reasons. Waqar never did anything of note against India unlike Akram. Most Indians fondly remember Waqar for the 96 WC QF match where Jadeja and Kumble hammered him to all parts and don't recall any worthwhile performance. OTOH Wasim was a magician with the ball.

[Ultimate_Game]

40 minutes ago, First class said:

Bumbra is very good bowler and truly on its way to a possible AGB, depending on his longevity and the form , but not there yet. He is not at Waqar's level, yet, but might make it to that level. I would pick Waqar ahead of Wasim in my 11. 

 

Extreme pace, accuracy and swing , and the most rhythmic and beautiful action of all time, that was Waqar Younis , 

 

 

 

Waqar couldn't really do much against any decent team. His career was built on bullying likes of poor NZ, Eng, Zim and SL teams. Against better batting teams he used to disappear the same way Kohli does in ICC knockouts.

 

Bumrah shows up against the best and is the difference maker against teams which matter unlike bullying also rans. And that too across all formats. But you can't expect folks who think Inzi was better than Tendulkar to understand it.

[First class]

6 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Waqar couldn't really do much against any decent team. His career was built on bullying likes of poor NZ, Eng, Zim and SL teams. Against better batting teams he used to disappear the same way Kohli does in ICC knockouts.

 

Bumrah shows up against the best and is the difference maker against teams which matter unlike bullying also rans. And that too across all formats. But you can't expect folks who think Inzi was better than Tendulkar to understand it.

Yeah, as in the above video clip , "low level batsmen"  like Artherton , Gooch and Gower in their home ground were terrorized by Waqar. 

[First class]

13 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Actually for cricketing reasons. Waqar never did anything of note against India unlike Akram. Most Indians fondly remember Waqar for the 96 WC QF match where Jadeja and Kumble hammered him to all parts and don't recall any worthwhile performance. OTOH Wasim was a magician with the ball.

" Magician" received some $$ from Indian bookies and didn't show up for that 1996 match against India, Waqar played and had a bad day, all credit to Jadeja and Kumble , no doubt. Wasim always been  more diplomatic and did  a--- kissing of Indians for IPL contracts , not a very dignified person , never helped any new pacer in Pakistan . I know after Waqar's no so careful choice of words for Indians while commentating in India-Pakistan game , didn't win him many fans in India , but doesn't deny the fact he was an ATG bowler, better than Wasim and at par with Marshal and Styne . 

[New guy]

30 minutes ago, First class said:

Yeah, as in the above video clip , "low level batsmen"  like Artherton , Gooch and Gower in their home ground were terrorized by Waqar. 

Many bowlers have terrorized batsmen in england because of natural movement. Amir did that, only place he excelled in tests is England. 

 

RP swing was a demon in one series there, even won us a series in England

 

 

Here's Bhuvi against England

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2025 by New guy

[New guy]

11 minutes ago, First class said:

" Magician" received some $$ from Indian bookies and didn't show up for that 1996 match against India, Waqar played and had a bad day, all credit to Jadeja and Kumble , no doubt. Wasim always been  more diplomatic and did  a--- kissing of Indians for IPL contracts , not a very dignified person , never helped any new pacer in Pakistan . I know after Waqar's no so careful choice of words for Indians while commentating in India-Pakistan game , didn't win him many fans in India , but doesn't deny the fact he was an ATG bowler, better than Wasim and at par with Marshal and Styne . 

Forget india, most people in paksitan and no one in any other country thinks Waqar is anywhere close to Wasim

 

You can lie, pretend, all you want. stats and numbers are right there. 

 

 

 

Waqar had a lot of bad days in later 3/4th of his career everywhere

 

Also the projection is hilarious, only reason you are biased against Wasim and for Waqar is because of the india factor, nothing to do with actual performances, and facts

[Adamant]

Waqar is an ATG in tests, even though he became a shell of himself after the first 5-6 years he still did enough to end up with great numbers.

 

Quality wise, I rate Bumrah higher but he needs to take atleast 250 wickets to become an ATG.

 

Waqar did use dabbi bowl, but he tormented sides with the new ball too and that is because of his skills.

 

His bowling was aesthetic, unlike other bowlers who try to take the edge on 5th stump and bowl good lengths, Waqar bowled full and fast, the idea was to hut the wickets or the pads with 145 kph bowling accompanied with prodigious lateral movement. 

[rkt.india]

33 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Waqar is an ATG in tests, even though he became a shell of himself after the first 5-6 years he still did enough to end up with great numbers.

 

Quality wise, I rate Bumrah higher but he needs to take atleast 250 wickets to become an ATG.

 

Waqar did use dabbi bowl, but he tormented sides with the new ball too and that is because of his skills.

 

His bowling was aesthetic, unlike other bowlers who try to take the edge on 5th stump and bowl good lengths, Waqar bowled full and fast, the idea was to hut the wickets or the pads with 145 kph bowling accompanied with prodigious lateral movement. 

He bowled fast only till 1994 that too movement aided by bottlecaps. He later learnt to swing the new ball but had lost pace then.

[Ultimate_Game]

1 hour ago, First class said:

Yeah, as in the above video clip , "low level batsmen"  like Artherton , Gooch and Gower in their home ground were terrorized by Waqar. 

 

Over the hill Gooch and Gower (in late 30s and 40s) and Atherton were not really world beaters in early 90s. Gower's best was in mid 80s, Atherton was a decent batter and nothing more with his best in mid 90s, and Gooch was 40+ at the time. There's a reason Eng were mediocre in 90s and that's what Waqar was capable of "terrorizing".

[New guy]

1 hour ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Comparing Bumrah with Waqar is an insult to Bumrah as they don't belong together. Bumrah is compared to ATG fast bowlers like Marshall, Holding, Hadlee, etc. while Waqar is a tier or two below. Comparing Bumrah to Wasim Akram makes sense but not with Waqar.

 

Bumrah has shown up against the best and was instrumental in India beating Aus in Aus twice! It should've been three times but lack of support from other bowlers, and more importantly Rohit & Kohli dragging the team down as always.

Apparently being a minnow basher and failing against big teams, being a home bully and failing away from home, is what's needed to be a better bowler.

 

And if you disagree you are just being political.

 

There are the same guys who cry and throw a fit saying Ashwin is not great because he cannot perform away from home, despite Ashwin being much better than waqar away from home.

 

Home pitches, home umpires, ball tampering allowed at home is what makes you great 

[Ultimate_Game]

1 hour ago, First class said:

" Magician" received some $$ from Indian bookies and didn't show up for that 1996 match against India, Waqar played and had a bad day, all credit to Jadeja and Kumble , no doubt. Wasim always been  more diplomatic and did  a--- kissing of Indians for IPL contracts , not a very dignified person , never helped any new pacer in Pakistan . I know after Waqar's no so careful choice of words for Indians while commentating in India-Pakistan game , didn't win him many fans in India , but doesn't deny the fact he was an ATG bowler, better than Wasim and at par with Marshal and Styne . 

 

Please share what exactly did Waqar ever do against India. I don't recall him doing much and that's why he isn't rated as a player. And he isn't rated as a person for his pathetic thinking. Essentially not a great bowler, and a pathetic person to boot.

 

"Better than Wasim and on par with Marshal and Steyn"  Yeah sure! While never doing anything of note against better teams and being pedestrian against the top sides. None of the other bowlers on that list are in the same category as Waqar who's a level or two below all of them.

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, New guy said:

Apparently being a minnow basher and failing against big teams, being a home bully and failing away from home, is what's needed to be a better bowler.

 

And if you disagree you are just being political.

 

There are the same guys who cry and throw a fit saying Ashwin is not great because he cannot perform away from home, despite Ashwin being much better than waqar away from home.

 

Home pitches, home umpires, ball tampering allowed at home is what makes you great 

 

What Bumrah has done this year alone - averaging 15 in Tests, being the lone player to stand up in Aus and being the best player there, and single handedly winning WT20 with the greatest performance ever from a single player in a tourney - is more than what most players do in their entire careers.

 

Waqar isn't even close to accomplishing any of these achievements who was good enough only to bully weaker teams while going missing against better teams. In nutshell Waqar's legacy is:

1. Bullying minnows like NZ, Eng and SL in 90s

2. "Reversing" the ball thanks to bottle caps

3. Indians remember Waqar fondly for getting hammered by Jadeja and Kumble in 96 QF

4. Going missing against top teams

[deathmonger]

2 hours ago, First class said:

Yeah, as in the above video clip , "low level batsmen"  like Artherton , Gooch and Gower in their home ground were terrorized by Waqar. 

None of these are particularly great batsmen.

 

Gooch and Gower were also over the hill.

 

Bumrah has got 5-fers against an Eng lineup with Cook and Root who are way superior to these guys.

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, Adamant said:

Waqar is an ATG in tests, even though he became a shell of himself after the first 5-6 years he still did enough to end up with great numbers.

 

Quality wise, I rate Bumrah higher but he needs to take atleast 250 wickets to become an ATG.

 

Waqar did use dabbi bowl, but he tormented sides with the new ball too and that is because of his skills.

 

His bowling was aesthetic, unlike other bowlers who try to take the edge on 5th stump and bowl good lengths, Waqar bowled full and fast, the idea was to hut the wickets or the pads with 145 kph bowling accompanied with prodigious lateral movement. 

Waqar’s stats are highly inflated due to bashing weaker opposition.

 

You look at his stats vs top 4 teams of his era- Australia, Saffers, Windies, India and Pakistan:

 

Waqar has 117 test wickets at avg of 28.86. He is very Kane Williamson-esque version of bowling. Picked a lot of wickets vs NZ and Zim who were just slightly better than minnows throughout 90s. They are basically same as BD, WI, Pak and SL of this era who can occasionally upset top teams.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=wickets;team=7;template=results;type=bowling

 

[Majestic]

@Adamant

When we consider top 4 opponents for Bumrah- Aus, Eng, NZ and SA,

 

Bumrah has 171 test wickets at avg of 21.

 

Waqar has 117 test wickets at avg of 28.

 

wasim has 187 test wickets at avg of 24.

 

So, the only thing where Bumrah is lacking is quantity wickets vs mediocre teams such as Pak, SL, BD and WI. When it comes to top teams, Bumrah already has played enough. What’s the point of these quantitative numbers against lower tier teams?

[New guy]

1 hour ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

What Bumrah has done this year alone - averaging 15 in Tests, being the lone player to stand up in Aus and being the best player there, and single handedly winning WT20 with the greatest performance ever from a single player in a tourney - is more than what most players do in their entire careers.

 

Waqar isn't even close to accomplishing any of these achievements who was good enough only to bully weaker teams while going missing against better teams. In nutshell Waqar's legacy is:

1. Bullying minnows like NZ, Eng and SL in 90s

2. "Reversing" the ball thanks to bottle caps

3. Indians remember Waqar fondly for getting hammered by Jadeja and Kumble in 96 QF

4. Going missing against top teams

Also waqar had wasim and imran to help him in those matches (just check imrans God level bowling stats in those matches), so waqar would come and finish the tail after Imran and wasim had already done all the damage. Those times tail could hardly bat, unlike today. 

 

 

Meanwhile Bumrah is doing without any support. 

Edited January 12, 2025 by New guy

[New guy]

19 minutes ago, Majestic said:

@Adamant

When we consider top 4 opponents for Bumrah- Aus, Eng, NZ and SA,

 

Bumrah has 171 test wickets at avg of 21.

 

Waqar has 117 test wickets at avg of 28.

 

wasim has 187 test wickets at avg of 24.

 

So, the only thing where Bumrah is lacking is quantity wickets vs mediocre teams such as Pak, SL, BD and WI. When it comes to top teams, Bumrah already has played enough. What’s the point of these quantitative numbers against lower tier teams?

The goal post was earlier 200 wickets in total to be an ATG, once bumrah crossed 200, now goal post is 250 wickets. Once he crosses 250, goal post will be moved to 300 or 350 wickets. 

Edited January 12, 2025 by New guy