Identifying chokers

[Adamant]

12 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Yup. There're some who thrive under pressure. Michael Jordan was notorious for it. And so was Tom Brady. They loved the pressure and limelight. Look at Travis Head or Gilchrist earlier, or Steve Smith. You knew they would be trouble and you had to somehow get their wkt. And they always showed up. And look at our so called "King" or "Hitman". Nobody's scared about these two in knockouts. Gambhir OTOH was always a fighter and clutch. There's a reason he top scored in both 2007 WT20 and 2011 WC. It's unfortunate he played only from 2007-2012 coz he had the clutch gene just like Shikhar Dhawan. Dhawan always used to show up in ICC tourneys and it was unfortunate he got injured in 2019 WC coz he would've managed to do a lot more than Rohit & Kohli in chasing 239 in the SF.

 

And sad part is that we have had these data points for a long time and yet we still persist with Rohit and Kohli as if they're gonna suddenly become clutch. As an example look at Kohli's record in IPL playoffs. He has played 14 playoff matches (qualifiers and knockouts) and he averages in 20s with a SR around 125! These are shocking numbers and Mandeep Singh level. He has consistently not sowed up in ICC knockouts - 2015 WC SF, 2017 CT Final, 2019 WC SF, 2023 WC Final etc. and yet is still around. And someone like Jaiswal is not even in the squad 

Conveniently forgot, 2013 Ct semi, 2013 Ct finals, 2014 t20 wc semi, 2014 t20 world cup final, 2016 t20 wc semi, 2023 wc semi,”” even in 2023 finals he was the highest scorer from our side lol.

 

Imagine if the highest run scorer in that final is a choker, what does it say about the rest of the team.

 

You are a dishonest cricket fan.

[Gollum]

@Ultimate_Game Kohli is not a choker or mentally weak. I mean look at his insane record in WT20 KOs and big games (like those GOAT knocks in Mohali 2016 and MCG 2022). Rarely a miss especially in his peak years. Chokers can't have those kind of match defining/winning performances so consistently. Against Pak also (always high pressure since bilaterals ended), he single handedly won us 5-6 matches. 

 

His ODI KOs record doesn't justify his overall level unfortunately but can't have it all, bad luck (2019 SF), him being in bad form (never looked himself throughout 2015 WC) played a part. 2017 CT F was a disaster but I blame his captaincy more there.

 

Even in 23 F I  thought he batted well. Sometimes you need some luck here and there, Head had it in plenty that day. With a little more luck Kohli could have won a couple of WT20s, it is not his fault if others don't step up that day or luck deserts the team completely. Just not meant to be. You also have to factor in the fact that 'neutral' umpires are going to give all marginal calls against India especially in critical situations, Kane/NZ got plenty in their favor in the WTC F and 19 SF....these things are forgotten. 

 

WTC F record is a blot but more of technical limitations and it coinciding with the worst phase of his career. Not mental. 

 

I think most of Kohli's underperformance is due to technical limitations (which ATG made it so far without backfoot game?), him losing motivation (hence pattern of repeating manner of dismissals or skipping matches when he had momentum) and hand-eye (maybe age fudging, who knows?).

Edited February 16, 2025 by Gollum

[Adamant]

Rohit, Kohli have a mixed record in knockouts, Kohli has bossed t20 world cups, Rohit did well last year , overall Kohli has easily been better than Rohit. I wouldn't call Rohit an out and out choker too because of his match winning knocks in 2024 semi, two good knocks in 2023 semi and finals, 2015 QF, 2007 t20 finals (30 of 16).

 

[Ultimate_Game]

On 2/16/2025 at 1:28 AM, Gollum said:

@Ultimate_Game Kohli is not a choker or mentally weak. I mean look at his insane record in WT20 KOs and big games (like those GOAT knocks in Mohali 2016 and MCG 2022). Rarely a miss especially in his peak years. Chokers can't have those kind of match defining/winning performances so consistently. Against Pak also (always high pressure since bilaterals ended), he single handedly won us 5-6 matches. 

 

His ODI KOs record doesn't justify his overall level unfortunately but can't have it all, bad luck (2019 SF), him being in bad form (never looked himself throughout 2015 WC) played a part. 2017 CT F was a disaster but I blame his captaincy more there.

 

Even in 23 F I  thought he batted well. Sometimes you need some luck here and there, Head had it in plenty that day. With a little more luck Kohli could have won a couple of WT20s, it is not his fault if others don't step up that day or luck deserts the team completely. Just not meant to be. You also have to factor in the fact that 'neutral' umpires are going to give all marginal calls against India especially in critical situations, Kane/NZ got plenty in their favor in the WTC F and 19 SF....these things are forgotten. 

 

WTC F record is a blot but more of technical limitations and it coinciding with the worst phase of his career. Not mental. 

 

I think most of Kohli's underperformance is due to technical limitations (which ATG made it so far without backfoot game?), him losing motivation (hence pattern of repeating manner of dismissals or skipping matches when he had momentum) and hand-eye (maybe age fudging, who knows?).

 

15 hours ago, Adamant said:

Rohit, Kohli have a mixed record in knockouts, Kohli has bossed t20 world cups, Rohit did well last year , overall Kohli has easily been better than Rohit. I wouldn't call Rohit an out and out choker too because of his match winning knocks in 2024 semi, two good knocks in 2023 semi and finals, 2015 QF, 2007 t20 finals (30 of 16).

 

 

They've done a lot less than what someone expect from "world's best" and called as "King" or "Hitman". You expect world's best to boss a tourney the way Bumrah did as a bowler in the recent WT20. They haven't come close to doing so. If you give chances to any top domestic player and back them for more than a decade you'll get similar performances. They haven't been difference makers at all. They haven't done anything close to what Aravinda De Silva did in 96 WC, Waugh's performances in must win in 1999 WC, Ponting's performance in 2003 WC Final, Gilchrist in knockouts, Travis Head in WTC or WC Final in 2023 etc.

 

You do expect someone to be world's best to rise up to the occasion. They haven't. At best their performances is similar to an average to a good batter. It has been our bowlers who have been the unsung heroes. Bumrah, Shami and to a lesser extent Kuldeep kept our opponents to a par or below par total more often than not. Not even once did batters rise up to the occasion and help our bowlers. In 2019 WC SF they failed to chase 239, in 2023 WC Final they put up a mediocre 240 when they had a great start of 80 off 10 overs. Eventually, you'll be called out for lack of impact when you're touted as world's best but your impact is less than Travis Head.

[Vk1]

We can expect KLR to repeat 23 final in CT knockouts. I have zero belief in that guy in critical matches.

[Vk1]

Excluding CT, Sachin got knockout games in 96,03 and 11.. a good 7/8 year gap each time. These guys get to play a knockout every 2/3 years now and still don't have much to show

[Serpico]

Is this the same as 'Napoleon heart' thing where some humans have really low heart rate and thus have higher endurance?

[Gollum]

On 2/18/2025 at 1:02 AM, Ultimate_Game said:

They've done a lot less than what someone expect from "world's best" and called as "King" or "Hitman". You expect world's best to boss a tourney the way Bumrah did as a bowler in the recent WT20. They haven't come close to doing so. If you give chances to any top domestic player and back them for more than a decade you'll get similar performances. They haven't been difference makers at all. They haven't done anything close to what Aravinda De Silva did in 96 WC, Waugh's performances in must win in 1999 WC, Ponting's performance in 2003 WC Final, Gilchrist in knockouts, Travis Head in WTC or WC Final in 2023 etc.

 

You do expect someone to be world's best to rise up to the occasion. They haven't. At best their performances is similar to an average to a good batter.

If you think Kohli's 2014 and 2016 WT20 campaigns are merely good, no point continuing this discussion. 

 

Kohli's 2016 campaign was no less than 2024 Bumrah IMO. Team let him down, and bad luck. 

[putrevus]

Was there a bigger choker than Bumrah before 2024 world t20. If Kohli had even half of 2024 version of Bumrah India would have won couple of ICC trournaments for sure before 2024.

Edited February 19, 2025 by putrevus

[putrevus]

On 2/15/2025 at 11:57 PM, Adamant said:

Conveniently forgot, 2013 Ct semi, 2013 Ct finals, 2014 t20 wc semi, 2014 t20 world cup final, 2016 t20 wc semi, 2023 wc semi,”” even in 2023 finals he was the highest scorer from our side lol.

 

Imagine if the highest run scorer in that final is a choker, what does it say about the rest of the team.

 

You are a dishonest cricket fan.

The only match we can fault Kohli in whiteball cricket is 2019 semi finals. But that was a touch and go LBW decision.

 

If any moron thinks Kohli is choker, they need to get their head examined.