Identifying chokers

[vvvslaxman]

It is more a science now. Plenty of papers have been published on this. As per the study Gukesh is immensely ice cold with low heart rate like Carlsen under pressure.  Wonder if this has to be tracked and see how to prove performance under pressure.   

 

https://www.onmanorama.com/sports/other-sports/2025/02/10/freestyle-chess-grand-slam-tour-gukesh-heart-rate-monitor.html

[Gollum]

Yeah, was watching on stream. Gukesh and Carlsen in general are known for their clutchness, and their heart bpms are consistently in 60s (average adult sleeping heart rate) even in challenging, pivotal positions while their opponents (even someone as great as Caruana) have theirs above 150. From what I could observe from his WCC mental coach Paddy Upton's interviews (also coached Indian cricket, hockey teams to success in the past), despite his tender age, he was psychologically ready and probably didn't even need Paddy's help.....Paddy didn't contact him during the match and turned up only in the final round, all his prep work was done in the training camp itself, that kind of confidence in his ward. 

 

Anand wasn't clutch, in fact choked in many crucial games in his career, underachieved despite his immense natural ability. In Norway Chess Classic 10-12 years back they had this monitor and his was often above 100 bpm, I remember similar stuff being discussed then to draw contrast between the 2 title contenders, Carlsen and Anand, I even remember Carlsen being talked about as chess' Bjorn Borg who had similar ice in veins temperament as opposed to the erupting volcano McEnroe. Pragg has a higher ceiling than Gukesh but again, weaker nerves. 

 

Djokovic (also Gukesh's idol btw) is one guy whose heart rate must be low despite the physical nature of tennis. Helped him a lot in outclutching a God gifted talent like Federer. Nole always talks about the benefits of yoga and breathing, practises a lot of that. Maybe if our players explore our roots, teachings from our ancestors/gurus, they can get that 1% edge which is decisive in top level competition. Even in Olympics we underperform so much due to choking, sports like shooting/archery rely a lot on handling nerves, and every time something is at stake, we see our people underperform. 

 

OP may have something here. But Kasparov was an exception....extremely fidgety and excitable, short tempered, like McEnroe. But clutch af, who can forget game 24 of the 1987 Seville match where he equalized against Karpov with English opening (slow burner, against his style and right up Karpov's alley) and retained the title? Considering the stakes and quality of his opponent probably the clutchest ever game in chess history. Karpov was the ice cold guy in that rivalry and mentally bulletproof but fire triumphed over ice in that instance. 

 

Edited February 13, 2025 by Gollum

[vvvslaxman]

Leander Paes is another person who thrived under pressure. It brought the best out of him. They have a rating called under pressure rating.  Djkovoic obviously tops the list.

 

https://www.tennis365.com/atp-tour/ranking-atp-finals-lineup-under-pressure-rating

 

If we have such a ranking Kela would be somewhere at the bottom of the barrel. Guys like Thakur would easily have higher rating.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2025 by vvvslaxman

[Chamsi]

It has been tried for physical sports, @vvvslaxman however it is clear why it may be faulty. One cannot decipher whether a change in heart rate is due to physical exhaustion or mental pressure. If I’m wrong, I’d love to learn more about how this works.

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, Chamsi said:

It has been tried for physical sports, @vvvslaxman however it is clear why it may be faulty. One cannot decipher whether a change in heart rate is due to physical exhaustion or mental pressure. If I’m wrong, I’d love to learn more about how this works.

 

Long back in cricket they used to have this heart rate reading. I know it is not an accurate representation.  But when you breathe normal you are likely to have better control of your nerves. KL Rahul's batting is a text book example how nerves can make you lose your coordination. 

 

 

KL Rahul

DInesh Karthik

Rohit 

 

You can sense the nervous energy at the start from these guys

 

ON the contrary Rishabh Pant, Ashwin,  Dhawan, Pandya have this self-belief and ice cold temperament.  Ganguly at his peak had this temperament especially in ODIs.

[Sgattick10]

Damn I read Gukesh as Gutkesh aka Mukesh and I was like wow when did that happen 

[Ultimate_Game]

12 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

ON the contrary Rishabh Pant, Ashwin,  Dhawan, Pandya have this self-belief and ice cold temperament.  Ganguly at his peak had this temperament especially in ODIs.

 

Nope. There's a reason India lost 9 consecutive finals under him and were fragile chasing. It changed with Dhoni coming in and we could finally start chasing and win something.

[Manucrick]

Kela 

[MK55]

I would rather Gukesh have an elevated heart rate if that helps him perform better under time pressure. Contrast his heart rate with Caruana during their match. Caruana totally outclassed him in the free style format under time pressure.

I don’t think he won a single game in the recent freestyle event. I definitely wasn’t expecting that. 

 

Having said that, a lower heart rate is off course way better in the long term for the body. And is essential for optimum performance after developing your skills. Gives you more room to go turbo (which may not even be required).

 

Edited February 14, 2025 by MK55

[Gollum]

24 minutes ago, MK55 said:

I would rather Gukesh have an elevated heart rate if that helps him perform better under time pressure. Contrast his heart rate with Caruana during their match. Caruana totally outclassed him in the free style format under time pressure.

I don’t think he won a single game in the recent freestyle event. I definitely wasn’t expecting that. 

 

Having said that, a lower heart rate is off course way better in the long term for the body. And is essential for optimum performance after developing your skills. Gives you more room to go turbo (which may not even be required).

 

Gukesh isn't good in time pressure situations because he isn't an intuitive player, relies on deep calculations which is time consuming. Even Caruana was like that in his younger days, that is why he was terrible in rapid/blitz for so long. Earlier Topalov had this problem. 

[AKane]

Bjorn Borg was supposedly very cool under pressure.  Muhammad Ali too.

[MK55]

2 hours ago, Gollum said:

Gukesh isn't good in time pressure situations because he isn't an intuitive player, relies on deep calculations which is time consuming. Even Caruana was like that in his younger days, that is why he was terrible in rapid/blitz for so long. Earlier Topalov had this problem. 

Well, hopefully he improves on that aspect coz right now there is a massive difference in his quality in classical vs the rest. Even in some hybrid 'classical' games, he seems to lose it when there is a time crunch. 

[Suhaan]

On 2/14/2025 at 8:25 AM, vvvslaxman said:

Long back in cricket they used to have this heart rate reading. I know it is not an accurate representation.

Iirc they used it in Aus in those Carlton and United series games till very early 2000s

[singhvivek141]

19 hours ago, Sgattick10 said:

Damn I read Gukesh as Gutkesh aka Mukesh and I was like wow when did that happen 

His fans believe he has a demeanor of a soldier. 

[Gollum]

10 hours ago, MK55 said:

Well, hopefully he improves on that aspect coz right now there is a massive difference in his quality in classical vs the rest. Even in some hybrid 'classical' games, he seems to lose it when there is a time crunch. 

He may become Caruana level in 4-5 years time. But no speed monster like Carlsen, Anand. Pragg has a higher ceiling there merely because of his approach and style.

 

Guki's strength is classical and he should strive for greatness there, almost all the prestigious tourneys/titles are in that format. 

[Ultimate_Game]

Link between performance and pressure has been established for quite a while. There're studies performed which show that golfers tend to choke more when there's more money/award riding on the putt. This study was performed after tracking data extensively across PGA tournaments and it was found that the choking increased with every additional $50000 award...

https://biztechmagazine.com/article/2015/03/more-money-more-problems-how-larger-rewards-increase-golfers-chances-choking

https://media.clemson.edu/economics/gated/data/golf/Impact-Pressure-Performance-JEBO-2015.pdf

 

A similar study was done with regular people. They took a group of people and asked them to putt the ball multiple times to see how many shots they took to make the putt. They averaged it out or determined par score for every person. Then they were offered $1000 if they could meet their par score in a one off. In other words if it takes you 3 shots to putt the ball on an average, all you had to do was sink the ball in 3 or less putts to win $1000.

 

They found that majority of the people struggled to meet their par score when they were able to do so easily without anything riding on it. They also found an interesting thing - that a minority (less than 10%) actually performed better when the award was offered. They consistently performed better when the stakes were higher.

 

This explains why Kohli and Rohit perform so well in bilaterals and meaningless matches with not much riding on it. But when the stakes are high they struggle. Be it ICC tourneys or IPL playoffs/knockouts, they consistently fail to show up. Whereas some of the folks like Travis Head, Shikhar Dhawan, Steve Smith, Gilchrist, and to a lesser extent Pant and Pandya show up when the going is tough. I would also put Shardul Thakur in that category.

[BacktoCricaddict]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Link between performance and pressure has been established for quite a while. There're studies performed which show that golfers tend to choke more when there's more money/award riding on the putt. This study was performed after tracking data extensively across PGA tournaments and it was found that the choking increased with every additional $50000 award...

https://biztechmagazine.com/article/2015/03/more-money-more-problems-how-larger-rewards-increase-golfers-chances-choking

https://media.clemson.edu/economics/gated/data/golf/Impact-Pressure-Performance-JEBO-2015.pdf

 

A similar study was done with regular people. They took a group of people and asked them to putt the ball multiple times to see how many shots they took to make the putt. They averaged it out or determined par score for every person. Then they were offered $1000 if they could meet their par score in a one off. In other words if it takes you 3 shots to putt the ball on an average, all you had to do was sink the ball in 3 or less putts to win $1000.

 

They found that majority of the people struggled to meet their par score when they were able to do so easily without anything riding on it. They also found an interesting thing - that a minority (less than 10%) actually performed better when the award was offered. They consistently performed better when the stakes were higher.

 

This explains why Kohli and Rohit perform so well in bilaterals and meaningless matches with not much riding on it. But when the stakes are high they struggle. Be it ICC tourneys or IPL playoffs/knockouts, they consistently fail to show up. Whereas some of the folks like Travis Head, Shikhar Dhawan, Steve Smith, Gilchrist, and to a lesser extent Pant and Pandya show up when the going is tough. I would also put Shardul Thakur in that category.

And then there are some that only show up big ONLY when the stakes are big. They don't seem to care enough in low-stakes outings and tend to be inconsistent performers. Laxman and Gundappa Vishwanath come to mind. Maybe Thakur too.

 

At any rate, all of these mental-strength talents are also gifts (just like physical traits such as speed, power, athleticism, hand-eye coordination, timing etc). After all, even the brain is a physiological chemical/electrical factory that is wired differently in different people. Like with physical traits, you can train to try and reach your ceiling, but everyone's ceiling is not the same.

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, BacktoCricaddict said:

And then there are some that only show up big ONLY when the stakes are big. They don't seem to care enough in low-stakes outings and tend to be inconsistent performers. Laxman and Gundappa Vishwanath come to mind. Maybe Thakur too.

 

At any rate, all of these mental-strength talents are also gifts (just like physical traits such as speed, power, athleticism, hand-eye coordination, timing etc). After all, even the brain is a physiological chemical/electrical factory that is wired differently in different people. Like with physical traits, you can train to try and reach your ceiling, but everyone's ceiling is not the same.

 

Yup. There're some who thrive under pressure. Michael Jordan was notorious for it. And so was Tom Brady. They loved the pressure and limelight. Look at Travis Head or Gilchrist earlier, or Steve Smith. You knew they would be trouble and you had to somehow get their wkt. And they always showed up. And look at our so called "King" or "Hitman". Nobody's scared about these two in knockouts. Gambhir OTOH was always a fighter and clutch. There's a reason he top scored in both 2007 WT20 and 2011 WC. It's unfortunate he played only from 2007-2012 coz he had the clutch gene just like Shikhar Dhawan. Dhawan always used to show up in ICC tourneys and it was unfortunate he got injured in 2019 WC coz he would've managed to do a lot more than Rohit & Kohli in chasing 239 in the SF.

 

And sad part is that we have had these data points for a long time and yet we still persist with Rohit and Kohli as if they're gonna suddenly become clutch. As an example look at Kohli's record in IPL playoffs. He has played 14 playoff matches (qualifiers and knockouts) and he averages in 20s with a SR around 125! These are shocking numbers and Mandeep Singh level. He has consistently not sowed up in ICC knockouts - 2015 WC SF, 2017 CT Final, 2019 WC SF, 2023 WC Final etc. and yet is still around. And someone like Jaiswal is not even in the squad 

[BacktoCricaddict]

26 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

There're some who thrive under pressure. Michael Jordan was notorious for it. And so was Tom Brady. They loved the pressure and limelight. Look at Travis Head or Gilchrist earlier, or Steve Smith.

Just to clarify my point (and am not disagreeing with you) 

 

Guys like Jordan and Brady are different from Laxman and Viswanath. The former two showed up in every situation - high stakes or not. The 2nd two would lollygag in low-stakes situations but show up in high-stakes ones.

 

So there are 4 categories:

 

Showed up all the time, pressure or not: Jordan, Brady, Gavaskar

Showed up only when stakes are low: Rohit, Kohli

Showed up only when stakes are high: Laxman, Thakur, GRV, maybe Pant and Pandya too.

Never showed up: K L Rahul :-)

 

So, maybe we should play these low-stakes bullies in bilaterals and just niggle them out for knockouts :-)))

Edited February 15, 2025 by BacktoCricaddict

[Adamant]

13 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Link between performance and pressure has been established for quite a while. There're studies performed which show that golfers tend to choke more when there's more money/award riding on the putt. This study was performed after tracking data extensively across PGA tournaments and it was found that the choking increased with every additional $50000 award...

https://biztechmagazine.com/article/2015/03/more-money-more-problems-how-larger-rewards-increase-golfers-chances-choking

https://media.clemson.edu/economics/gated/data/golf/Impact-Pressure-Performance-JEBO-2015.pdf

 

A similar study was done with regular people. They took a group of people and asked them to putt the ball multiple times to see how many shots they took to make the putt. They averaged it out or determined par score for every person. Then they were offered $1000 if they could meet their par score in a one off. In other words if it takes you 3 shots to putt the ball on an average, all you had to do was sink the ball in 3 or less putts to win $1000.

 

They found that majority of the people struggled to meet their par score when they were able to do so easily without anything riding on it. They also found an interesting thing - that a minority (less than 10%) actually performed better when the award was offered. They consistently performed better when the stakes were higher.

 

This explains why Kohli and Rohit perform so well in bilaterals and meaningless matches with not much riding on it. But when the stakes are high they struggle. Be it ICC tourneys or IPL playoffs/knockouts, they consistently fail to show up. Whereas some of the folks like Travis Head, Shikhar Dhawan, Steve Smith, Gilchrist, and to a lesser extent Pant and Pandya show up when the going is tough. I would also put Shardul Thakur in that category.

Har cheez mai Rohit Kohli ko ghusa do bas.

 

Were all matches in wc 23 apart from finals meaningless. Lol even in the finals those two were our highest run scorers.

 

Kohli has performed in t20 wc knockouts plenty of times, neither Pant nor Dhawan or Pandya come anywhere close.

 

The point is if Kohli and Rohit are chokers then so is our whole team coz they have consistently performed better in knockouts than others.

 

Lemme know if you want to have a stat by stat comparison of knockouts, lets see if you can put your money where your mouth is.