Ultimate_Game Posted May 31 Posted May 31 GT is the case study in why top heavy teams with no batting depth down the order doesn't win tournaments. They might reach knockouts or even the final but the day they lose a couple of top order wkts cheaply, they're done. This is what we saw with Indian team under Kohli where we failed time and again in knockouts coz top order filled their boots in group stages and then went missing in knockouts. This is what RCB of old was with likes of Gayle, ABDV and Kohli failing time and again. GT is learning the same the hard way today in the final. GT still haven't won a tourney with this top heavy approach. The only title they won was when they had Pandya and Miller lower down the order. Since Pandya left along with Miller they haven't won anything. That's why better to have hitters lower down the order and batting depth till 8 or 9. This approach may not guarantee the title but I've yet to see a top order heavy team win any tournament. It's always the batting depth which wins tourneys. maniac, bowl_out, GoldenSun and 6 others 2 7
New guy Posted May 31 Posted May 31 (edited) Any team with stat padders at top will always have weak middle and low order. Its a law of nature. Same excuse was given when we had kohli opening, same excuse with Pak when Rizbar opened Edited May 31 by New guy Manucrick and Ultimate_Game 2
Ultimate_Game Posted May 31 Author Posted May 31 1 minute ago, New guy said: Any team with stat padders at top will always have weal middle and low order. Its a law of nature. Same excuse was given when we had kohli opening, same excuse wirh Pak when Rizbar opened Spot on! The team may look good by being "consistent" but they won't win anything coz their ceiling will always be low, and they nee everything to go in their favor to win matches. Manucrick and New guy 1 1
cowboysfan Posted May 31 Posted May 31 They need to replace guys like Washy and Tewatia,they have the team to win the title but need batting depth. Ultimate_Game 1
vvvslaxman Posted May 31 Posted May 31 MSD always wanted a batsman who can hit six batting at no.9. Depth in both departments with role clarity will win you more matches. Our own current T20 set up is an example. We basically played with 10 players with SKY last 1 years. But somehow our depth managed to cover all inadequacies. Axar sometimes didn't even have to bat.
Ultimate_Game Posted May 31 Author Posted May 31 48 minutes ago, cowboysfan said: They need to replace guys like Washy and Tewatia,they have the team to win the title but need batting depth. Also break up Gill and Sai opening partnership. They need to get an enforcer at the top and push Sai to 3. And get proper batters at 4 and 5, not Sundar and Tewatia. Manucrick 1
vvvslaxman Posted May 31 Posted May 31 2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: Also break up Gill and Sai opening partnership. They need to get an enforcer at the top and push Sai to 3. And get proper batters at 4 and 5, not Sundar and Tewatia. THey can easily put Buttler at the top
Ultimate_Game Posted May 31 Author Posted May 31 11 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: THey can easily put Buttler at the top Even then they remain top heavy with top 3 as the main batters. They need to bring in batters at 4 and 5 and add a 6 hitter or two lower down the order. Sundar and Tewatia aren't it. They haven't managed to replace Pandya and Miller from the old team. That's the gap so far.
vvvslaxman Posted May 31 Posted May 31 1 minute ago, Ultimate_Game said: Even then they remain top heavy with top 3 as the main batters. They need to bring in batters at 4 and 5 and add a 6 hitter or two lower down the order. Sundar and Tewatia aren't it. They haven't managed to replace Pandya and Miller from the old team. That's the gap so far. You need players who can play selfless risk taking cricket Ultimate_Game 1
Nikhil_cric Posted May 31 Posted May 31 Trying to cruise to par totals with a top heavy line up doesn't work in LOI cricket. You need batting depth to explode and score above par. Ultimate_Game 1
Ultimate_Game Posted May 31 Author Posted May 31 39 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said: Trying to cruise to par totals with a top heavy line up doesn't work in LOI cricket. You need batting depth to explode and score above par. Or to overcome a top order collapse Nikhil_cric 1
tapandrun Posted May 31 Posted May 31 (edited) In top side vs top side clash you need proper balanced side. The sides with bowling heavy or batting heavy can go on sliding slope in big games. Ind was winning all the bi-laterals with top 3 doing all the scoring in during 2019 and every1 well knew opp. just needed to dislodge 1/2 batters and the entire batting will go in shell and not even pretend to giving a fight. And tm kept hiding behind the excuse of 1 bad game bad 30 mins. It was a bad set-up flawed at many levels. In recent times Aus has does well (talking about post super team era) because they are balanced side, not dependent on 1/2 player, yes aus have/had players for big occasion, but they had batting till 7/8 and good bowling line up Even Ind winning wc in 2011 had yuvi playing at 5 , dhoni playing 6 and raina at 7. Good balanced side, there was a fight even when top 2/3 got out fr no score Even Odi wc-23 Ind had solid batters till 5, but had no1 after them but did well because it was balanced line-up, should have had 1/2 more batters Edited May 31 by tapandrun
putrevus Posted June 1 Posted June 1 (edited) 17 hours ago, tapandrun said: In top side vs top side clash you need proper balanced side. The sides with bowling heavy or batting heavy can go on sliding slope in big games. Ind was winning all the bi-laterals with top 3 doing all the scoring in during 2019 and every1 well knew opp. just needed to dislodge 1/2 batters and the entire batting will go in shell and not even pretend to giving a fight. And tm kept hiding behind the excuse of 1 bad game bad 30 mins. It was a bad set-up flawed at many levels. In recent times Aus has does well (talking about post super team era) because they are balanced side, not dependent on 1/2 player, yes aus have/had players for big occasion, but they had batting till 7/8 and good bowling line up Even Ind winning wc in 2011 had yuvi playing at 5 , dhoni playing 6 and raina at 7. Good balanced side, there was a fight even when top 2/3 got out fr no score Even Odi wc-23 Ind had solid batters till 5, but had no1 after them but did well because it was balanced line-up, should have had 1/2 more batters That top five went undefeated to win CT and lost one match in finals.Two ICC tournaments lost one match in finals.They did not do much wrong on whole.They did not lose world cup finals due to them being unbalanced, it was lost due to timidness of KL Rahul and spinners unable to do anything when Australia were 3 down for 43. Aussies won 2023 world cup due to their opener scoring runs in finals.Aussies bowlers can bat where as Indian bowlers cannot bat. 2011 squad will not work due to current bowling conditions.Yuvi was bowling 10 over every match. Edited June 1 by putrevus tapandrun 1
Gollum Posted June 1 Posted June 1 Wasn't GOAT WI also top-heavy? Greenidge, Haynes, Viv and Lloyd in top 4, shaky MO after that. 2000s Aus more well balanced with the likes of Steve Waugh, Bevan, Symonds, Clarke, Watson, Hussey manning the 5-7 positions. This is why they were tougher to beat IMO.
tapandrun Posted June 1 Posted June 1 1 hour ago, putrevus said: That top five went undefeated to win CT and lost one match in finals.Two ICC tournaments lost one match in finals.They did not do much wrong on whole.They did not lose world cup finals due to them being unbalanced, it was lost due to timiness of KL Rahul and spinners unable to do anything when Australia were 3 down for 43. Aussies won 2023 world cup due to their opener scoring runs in finals.Aussies bowlers can bat where as Indian bowlers cannot bat. 2011 squad will not work due to current bowling conditions.Yuvi was bowling 10 over every match. Yes Ind had solid batters till #5 if they have 1 more batter +1 more allrounder who can bat there would have been more fight in the side in the finals. Aus always got the balance, they do not rely on just top order 2/3 players and yes their top order always performs in big games which is where they are v.v.good. Yes condition today are not same as 2011 but, there should be a balance in the side where team bat 7/8 and have at-least 6 bowling options. Having more than 6 options means team can hide a bowler who is nt having a good day and optimally use the top bowler when needed.
tapandrun Posted June 1 Posted June 1 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Gollum said: Wasn't GOAT WI also top-heavy? Greenidge, Haynes, Viv and Lloyd in top 4, shaky MO after that. 2000s Aus more well balanced with the likes of Steve Waugh, Bevan, Symonds, Clarke, Watson, Hussey manning the 5-7 positions. This is why they were tougher to beat IMO. did other teams had any one of Viv or lloyd level players , think WI had Kalicharran and Kanhai as well in mo. Batting till 5/6 was good for that time. It was the time of specialist batters , specialist wk and specialist bowlers. Edited June 1 by tapandrun
Gollum Posted June 1 Posted June 1 Aus figured this out long ago, keep repeating this formula to add WCs to their kitty. Other teams still pondering the importance of 6th and 7th bowling options. Our 23 WC side was so unbalanced, it deserved to lose the final. Jadeja at 6, SKY at 7 and then tail (4 bunnies). You have got be kidding me.
Gollum Posted June 1 Posted June 1 2 minutes ago, tapandrun said: did other teams had any one of Viv or lloyd level players , think WI had Kalicharran and Kanhai . Batting till 5/6 was good for that time. It was the time of specialist batters , specialist wk and specialist bowlers. Kanhai was Sobers' gen. Very old by the time ODIs were a thing. Kalli I don't think was a good ODI bat.
tapandrun Posted June 1 Posted June 1 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Gollum said: Kanhai was Sobers' gen. Very old by the time ODIs were a thing. Kalli I don't think was a good ODI bat. kanhai was in 75 wc winning team if not wrong ?? Kalicharran may not be that good but no other team had this kind of batting Here is the playing 11 for the finals 75 and 79 1975 World Cup Final vs. Australia Clive Lloyd (Captain) Roy Fredericks Gordon Greenidge Alvin Kallicharran Rohan Kanhai Viv Richards Deryck Murray (Wicket-keeper) Keith Boyce Bernard Julien Andy Roberts Vanburn Holder 1979 World Cup Final vs. England Clive Lloyd (Captain) Gordon Greenidge Desmond Haynes Viv Richards Alvin Kallicharran Collis King Deryck Murray (Wicket-keeper) Andy Roberts Joel Garner Michael Holding Colin Croft Edited June 1 by tapandrun
Recommended Posts