Our ODI team is too jaded and lacks X factor to win the ODI WC

[putrevus]

The biggest problem is some geniuses extrapolating couple of innings made against third grade Afghanistan team.

 

In what world is Ishan Kishen or Jaiswal equal to Kohli.Forget Kohli there is no equal replacement for him.

 

Rohit is an ODI giant who is again better than all these guys like Ishan and Jaiswal.Some idiots are talking fricking useless Sai at number 3.

 

Kohli nor Rohit don't have to prove their worth every innings .If they are fit they walk into Indian team. Only guy who is a wildcard who could replace Rohit is VS.Others are just not good enough.

 

If guy like Bumrah had showed up  in knockout matches and be an ace we would not be having this conversation .Both of them would have retired on high.They turned Travis fricking Head into Bradman.

 

These two kept dragging this half ass Indian team on their shoulders till 2025. They reached two ICC odi finals with one loss. Gill what has he done to show that he is better than Rohit.

 

Jaiswal is unable to replace guys like Abhishek, Kishen in t20s but he will replace Rohit or Kohli.In what world is that possible.

 

Gill had no standing in t20s so he was replaceable.It is not the case here in odis. 

 

 

 

[tapandrun]

9 hours ago, wanted_desi said:

 

You realize World Cup is at end of the next year. There is hardly difference between Jaiswal and Rohit. Ishan and Kohli, difference again isn't much. 

There is alot of diff between Kolhi and Kishan -- Kolhi has scored all his runs against good sides, kishan just scored a ton vs Afgn.

This is kind od series kolhi letting go off, if he was playing he would have scored here as well, he has 4 tons in last 16 games and 5 fifties.

 

Rohit has 2 tons and 5 fifties in last 20 games , his avg this yr is 34 but before this yr he had 50+ avg and 100+ sr in 3 yrs.

 

both kolhi and Rohit have been scoring runs the issue here is they are aging players and its not a good idea to bring so many aging player to the wc, but saying they do not make it on merit is a wrong statement.

 

There is a lot of logic is saying aging teams do not do well in wc and last aging team to do well was Aus and only hyden and Gilchrist were 35+ (if not wrong)

 

But saying that Jaiswal and kishan is doing something that Kolhi and Sharma are not doing or are why behind them is wrong.

 

Kolhi is still the run-machine in Odi crkt no1 is even close to him right now.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21 by tapandrun

[tapandrun]

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

The biggest problem with having aging super-duper stars, in the scheme of things for a tournament 15 months away, is that ... they will HAVE to be in the playing 11 irrespective of their form and ability 15 months later.

 

Now it is possible that both will do well ... or atleast one will do well ( Kohli has a better chance of batting well ) ... but even if they look totally out of sorts, or Sooryavanshi or Jaiswal look as clearly better picks a year later, the super-duper stars will have to be picked. 

 

Compare this with a young star like Gill. Was forcefully brought in the T20I 11. But could be removed for the T20 WC 26 as other top order batters looked much better T20I prospects. This would not have been possible with aging super-duper stars. Plus the whole batting order will have to be arranged keeping their spots fixed.

 

Now, if a year later, Kohli and Rohit seem like the 2 best picks for top 3, I have no problem in them getting selected. But their selection won't be on merit if they decide to play.

 

Top 6 are locked for Wc-2027, and in many ways they pick themselves on merit. Kolhi has 4 tons and 5 fifties in last 16 games and rohit has 2 tons and 5 fifties he could have had 1-2 more tons if he was it patience and did some tuk-tuk, Both are making into the playing 11 based on merit.

 

Yes the team is aging and this was and should have been discussed before and just after 2023 wc to give full time to develop 3-4 players for the Odis. but there is no time.

 

If rohit/kolhi loses the form in up-coming Odis then there is a separate issue but now as the decision is already made they will play unless there is major change in ind cricket or they call it a day. Judging them after each an every game is not right thing to do , its not right thing to do with any player.

 

Gill t20i situation was diff , Ind was 220+ batting side and both Abhishek+Sanju were doing exceptionally well plus having wk opening the innings opened up 1 more  slot in the playing 11. Including Gill in the playing 11 made t20i team a below 180 runs side, all the hitting and maximizing pp was left to Abhishek, and Ind does not have a wk who can play in the mo so they had to bring jitesh who is not an intnl levl batter. <-- So with Gill , Ind was losing 30-40 runs and was going 1 batter short as they had to include Jitesh.

 

Ind Odis do not think there is any doubt over kolhi's place its rohit place in doubt ??

Jaiswal is a good batter but he has not out performed rohit , even the 2 tons jaiswal got were where rohit also got 75+ runs. 

 

Issue is age not the runs they are making into the side on merit, the thing is ppl do not understand rohit is a white-ball master they have all the exp. they can score runs as most player with his exp. and class can do even at later stages of the career , the ques. is whether Ind team and selectors want to move on from rohit or not ???  

 

 

[Ultimate_Game]

7 hours ago, Adamant said:

He will shite his pants not only in the final but everytime a decent opposition comes up in SA.

 

Luckily the selectors have a working brain and no one apart from you is thinking of replacing Kohli with Ishan.

 

Kohli scored 55(63) in finals, what Iyer did (0) is called shitting the bed.

 

Ishan is never going to play any Odi world cup final.

 

We've all seen what Kohli has done in the finals. Kohli is like Cristian Ronaldo - in the team on his past glories and the team looks better when he isn't around. We all saw you make these type of statements in T20s as well that if Kohli isn't around the team will struggle and let's see what the IPL stars do. And guess what? They won the freaking WT20 on their first go and that too by dominating the opponents by putting up 250+ in knockouts! Something we never saw with the so called "King Kohli" in the team.

 

The team looks better whenever Kohli isn't around. In Tests he ran away in 2020-21 BGT and we won it with youngsters. He did the same when Eng toured and we won that comfortably 4-1, he dropped out of India's tour of SA and Sai batted at no. 3 and we won the series with Sai the MoM, whenever he didn't play any bi-lateral series India looked better, he retired from T20s and the T20 team started looking unbeatable. And we're beginning to see the same trend in ODIs as well. The fact is that Kohli being in the team hasn't made the team better for a long time.

 

I repeat - if Kohli and Rohit are in the team, India will shyte the bed once again in WCs and come up empty handed. The only chance we have is unleash youngsters like Sooryavanshi/Jaiswal, Ishan, Sai coz whatever we've seen of "King Kohli", he isn't meant for the finals.

 

And even in ICC tournies our fortunes changed coz we brought in likes of Axar and Dube who've been stellar in knockouts. They're the ones who've made us the team to beat in knockouts as they show up and perform else we would be without an ICC tourney even now with "King Kohli" still crying about "one bad day", "30 mins of bad luck" while claiming he has "nothing to prove".

[express bowling]

32 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

Top 6 are locked for Wc-2027, and in many ways they pick themselves on merit. Kolhi has 4 tons and 5 fifties in last 16 games and rohit has 2 tons and 5 fifties he could have had 1-2 more tons if he was it patience and did some tuk-tuk, Both are making into the playing 11 based on merit.

 

Yes the team is aging and this was and should have been discussed before and just after 2023 wc to give full time to develop 3-4 players for the Odis. but there is no time.

 

If rohit/kolhi loses the form in up-coming Odis then there is a separate issue but now as the decision is already made they will play unless there is major change in ind cricket or they call it a day. Judging them after each an every game is not right thing to do , its not right thing to do with any player.

 

Gill t20i situation was diff , Ind was 220+ batting side and both Abhishek+Sanju were doing exceptionally well plus having wk opening the innings opened up 1 more  slot in the playing 11. Including Gill in the playing 11 made t20i team a below 180 runs side, all the hitting and maximizing pp was left to Abhishek, and Ind does not have a wk who can play in the mo so they had to bring jitesh who is not an intnl levl batter. <-- So with Gill , Ind was losing 30-40 runs and was going 1 batter short as they had to include Jitesh.

 

Ind Odis do not think there is any doubt over kolhi's place its rohit place in doubt ??

Jaiswal is a good batter but he has not out performed rohit , even the 2 tons jaiswal got were where rohit also got 75+ runs. 

 

Issue is age not the runs they are making into the side on merit, the thing is ppl do not understand rohit is a white-ball master they have all the exp. they can score runs as most player with his exp. and class can do even at later stages of the career , the ques. is whether Ind team and selectors want to move on from rohit or not ???  

 

 

My point was very simple. If they make the team on merit, keep them. I am not objecting.

 

But, seeing how they were treated in test matches, even if they lose form they will have to be kept as long as they want to play. 

 

If I were the coach, why would I want this compulsion ?

[tapandrun]

So still the argument of having t20i wc winners in the Odi wc side hold any water or the hype is over now ???

 

Sanju / Verma /Kishan all have struggled in all 3/4 games they have played in non sc or sc like conditions ???

Edited July 7 by tapandrun

[Adamant]

@Ultimate_Game preference of Kishan over Kohli in Odis for number 3 should easily be the worst opinion he had since Hooda over Kohli (Yes uou read that right, frikking Deepak Hooda over Kohli).

 

Requesting him to use some part  of his brain atleast. Kishan is an FTB of the highest order, and is never gonna have a respectable Odi career. 

[vvvslaxman]

19 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

So still the argument of having t20i wc winners in the Odi wc side hold any water or the hype is over now ???

 

Sanju / Verma /Kishan all have struggled in all 3/4 games they have played in non sc or sc like conditions ???

They would have preferred taking a break looking at how things go.  Tilak and Sanju's careero is on the line. 

[tapandrun]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

They would have preferred taking a break looking at how things go.  Tilak and Sanju's careero is on the line. 

Yes they may need rest.

 

But here the issue is nt fatigue the issue is limitations and tech. issues.  Verma's issue with no off-side game is not fatigue issue, Sanju not being consistent and not able to perform when here is help for bowlers is not technical issue. Bigger boundaries and natural extra asstiance to the bowlers is not fatigue issue for kishan.

 

The Issue with every1 -- Sanju/Verma/Kishan/Dube/Axar is not fatigue issue , the issue is limitations and tech. issues.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, tapandrun said:

Yes they may need rest.

 

But here the issue is nt fatigue the issue is limitations and tech. issues.  Verma's issue with no off-side game is not fatigue issue, Sanju not being consistent and not able to perform when here is help for bowlers is not technical issue. Bigger boundaries and natural extra asstiance to the bowlers is not fatigue issue for kishan.

 

The Issue with every1 -- Sanju/Verma/Kishan/Dube/Axar is not fatigue issue , the issue is limitations and tech. issues.

 

Most of the guys were poor in IPL as well. Sanju had a couple of 100s then he was okay. Abhishek did well. Kishan did alright. Rest were no that good even in IPL. Iyer towards the end was not really good. Tilak was a failure even in IPL. Axar was poor there. 

[tapandrun]

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Most of the guys were poor in IPL as well. Sanju had a couple of 100s then he was okay. Abhishek did well. Kishan did alright. Rest were no that good even in IPL. Iyer towards the end was not really good. Tilak was a failure even in IPL. Axar was poor there. 

Why they are poor here ??? Are the limitations of this t20i core group not obvious in non sc or sc like conditions ???

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Why they are poor here ??? Are the limitations of this t20i core group not obvious in non sc or sc like conditions ???

 

 

 

India did well in SA.  World cup was over. They all played for different teams doing different roles. Now they are coming back together again with a new captain. They look rather rusty.  Also we have a captain who consistently concedes above par total regardless of which bowling unit has. With bad rhythm and poor onfield captaincy things look worse than it is. Atleast a couple of matches were lost due to one or two bad overs. We rarely conceded 25 runs over to any opposition. Under iyer already 3 in 4 matches.  

 

At this point Indain top order has to recalibrate their approach until everyone finds their form They cannot  keep losing cluster of wickets in the power play. Take it deep and target certain bowlers.

[Vk1]

Like bowlers, we need 6'2 batters in SENA in shorter formats to ride the bounce and play freely. You can come across favorable pitches and shorter boundaries in Eng but you can be found in their regular conditions. 

[Lord]

1 hour ago, Vk1 said:

Like bowlers, we need 6'2 batters in SENA in shorter formats to ride the bounce and play freely. You can come across favorable pitches and shorter boundaries in Eng but you can be found in their regular conditions. 

Batsmen don't need to be tall to handle bounce. Ponting, Sachin. Kohli etc all played bounce well. 

[Vk1]

9 hours ago, Lord said:

Batsmen don't need to be tall to handle bounce. Ponting, Sachin. Kohli etc all played bounce well. 

Yes but they are all generational talents. Taller batters likely to succeed more than Kishen, iyer etc

[tapandrun]

18 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

India did well in SA.  World cup was over. They all played for different teams doing different roles. Now they are coming back together again with a new captain. They look rather rusty.  Also we have a captain who consistently concedes above par total regardless of which bowling unit has. With bad rhythm and poor onfield captaincy things look worse than it is. Atleast a couple of matches were lost due to one or two bad overs. We rarely conceded 25 runs over to any opposition. Under iyer already 3 in 4 matches.  

 

At this point Indain top order has to recalibrate their approach until everyone finds their form They cannot  keep losing cluster of wickets in the power play. Take it deep and target certain bowlers.

 

This is not a form thing, this is about natural abilities and having limited game.

 

Sanju can not be consistent and can not be trusted in swing and seam condition <-- this is nothing to do with form

Kishan is mostly leg side player has limited off-side game and being not that tall palying hook/pull every ball in bigger gounds is a risk that batter should not have to take ball after ball

Iyer was a trundler basher or spin basher in IPl as well he was playing at #3 in previous season for few games and moved to #4 just because he does not want to face pace upfront his innings, this can be aviaded at intnl playing in non sc or sc like conditions

Verma does not have proper off-side game , can not hit 4s along the ground and does get stuck.

 

All these have nothing to do with form, with form they can be lucky and score few runs but issues will always be there, these batters are not naturally suited for pace bounce swing and bigger ground.

 

There should be no problem to consider newer set of player who are more suited for next wc. 

 

 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, tapandrun said:

 

This is not a form thing, this is about natural abilities and having limited game.

 

Sanju can not be consistent and can not be trusted in swing and seam condition <-- this is nothing to do with form

Kishan is mostly leg side player has limited off-side game and being not that tall palying hook/pull every ball in bigger gounds is a risk that batter should not have to take ball after ball

Iyer was a trundler basher or spin basher in IPl as well he was playing at #3 in previous season for few games and moved to #4 just because he does not want to face pace upfront his innings, this can be aviaded at intnl playing in non sc or sc like conditions

Verma does not have proper off-side game , can not hit 4s along the ground and does get stuck.

 

All these have nothing to do with form, with form they can be lucky and score few runs but issues will always be there, these batters are not naturally suited for pace bounce swing and bigger ground.

 

There should be no problem to consider newer set of player who are more suited for next wc. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Iyer has  

 

28, 68, 37, 5 in England    So not overly terrible here. He also has excellent ODI average in NZ.

 

Look at Kohli's performance in T20 in England

 

9, 1, 32, 5, 100*, 24, 31, 11

 

Not really earth shattering. Most of our seniors scored when they were up against a b string bowling attack like jake ball, willey, plunkeett, jordan. 

[tapandrun]

48 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

Iyer has  

 

28, 68, 37, 5 in England    So not overly terrible here. He also has excellent ODI average in NZ.

 

Look at Kohli's performance in T20 in England

 

9, 1, 32, 5, 100*, 24, 31, 11

 

Not really earth shattering. Most of our seniors scored when they were up against a b string bowling attack like jake ball, willey, plunkeett, jordan. 

This is not about comparing any 1 player to other player, identify the root cause. If 1 player has/had not done well and other just did a bit better does not solve the problem.

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

This is not about comparing any 1 player to other player, identify the root cause. If 1 player has/had not done well and other just did a bit better does not solve the problem.

 

None of the ENglish players are technically proficient either.   Phil salt repeatedly got bounced out by Arshdeep even in Indian conditions. This will only lead to technically proficient maiden over specialists like Kela. WHenever our batsmen let us down our bowlers stepped up. In challenging conditions all teams will struggle. Your bowlers have to step up. That is what missing here. 

 

All these weaknesses can be exploited even in India. Sanju did get out to short ball thrice in the ENgland series on flatter wickets.  It is a matter of how well you hide by complementing each other.  Almost every T20 batsman has some sort of weakness. There is no perfect T20 batsman. 

 

 

[tapandrun]

27 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

None of the ENglish players are technically proficient either.   Phil salt repeatedly got bounced out by Arshdeep even in Indian conditions. This will only lead to technically proficient maiden over specialists like Kela. WHenever our batsmen let us down our bowlers stepped up. In challenging conditions all teams will struggle. Your bowlers have to step up. That is what missing here. 

 

All these weaknesses can be exploited even in India. Sanju did get out to short ball thrice in the ENgland series on flatter wickets.  It is a matter of how well you hide by complementing each other.  Almost every T20 batsman has some sort of weakness. There is no perfect T20 batsman. 

 

 

 

Yes -t20 batters will have defensive tech. issues, that is given and well understood by all. Issue with Ind batters are they are not suited for these condition and they do not have the game to counter. Can they score some runs in coming games sure , but are they naturally suited for non sc/sc like conditions no.

 

There lack of off-side game is being expose because ball is moving or have some kind of bit more bounce they can not club leg-side because of the assistance bowlers are getting. On flat wkts the batter can line up for their leg-side shots , and add  bigger boundaries so first batters can not play their most productive shots plus their is bigger boundary so even if they play it ,its not certain if will  go for 4/6 and then can not to access half of the entire ground.

 

This is the time , to sort these issue either fix them or get new player who are natural suited for such conditions. Not asking for KL but player who can hit big 6s, who are good vs bit more extra bounce and pace and has decent/good off-side game.

 

 

Edited July 8 by tapandrun