What should be the playing combination of Indian XI on subcontinental featherbeds?

[putrevus]

It's more about the type of bowlers you have rather than the quantity. What's the point of having 4 swing bowlers and one spinner if there's no swing? Or bowling 3 hit the deck bowlers and two spinners in England? Our biggest deficiency in the bowling department is not just talented bowlers but the right types of bowlers who are intelligent and consistent. We've got one hit the deck type bowler who can bowl just on a back of length and still get good bounce/carry in Ishant. That's great, you need that sort of classic tall/lanky bowler. Ishant has to improve in his consistency and ability to find a good length again and again. We've got to continue to develop left arm fast swing bowlers. Left arm fast bowlers that swing that ball are poison to most batsmen. What happened to the RP Singh/Pathan? Why haven't they taken the next step like Zaheer has? Irfan Pathan, I believe, is a far more important player for India's test future than a Pujara/Raina or any other largely untested batsmen. There's is absolutely no reason why Pathan shouldn't be bowling like Zaheer with pace in the mid to low 80s consistently swinging and moving the new ball making life hell for right handers. You're almost guaranteed that you'll find decent right hand fast bowlers like Sreesanth/Patel etc etc. You don't have to worry about finding those kinds of bowlers. The key is finding and developing those rare left arm bowlers or tall classic fast bowlers that generate extra bounce and pace. If Mithun was a left armer you could have almost guaranteed he would have picked up a couple more wicket just by the way he would have created the awkward angles into batsmen much like when Mitchell Johnson goes wayward but still picks up a few wickets because right hand batsmen with poor technique playing away from their bodies will always be more susceptible to getting out from lefties. I'm hearing good things about Pathan now, let's hope both himself and Ishant get their skills and mentality right because they already have the talent.

Johnson picks up wickets due the fact he can bowl very fast with his slingy action , if Johnson did not have that pace he would be out of their side as well. Zaheer bowls in 130s , where as Pathan last seen was bowling 110 kmph that is just not acceptable, if he had bowled on this wicket they would have creamed him all over the park. The bigger problem India has lack of Spinner who can attack without giving away two or three boundaries every over.The spinners were just pathetic and Mishra going by his tour match was not better either. I would take mishra over Ohja because if he has good day he will pick up some wickets where as ohja is just crappy bowler.For left arm spinner he has not control.He bats crap and fields awful.

[thevortex]

Again Outsider, Harbhajan at No.7 not at Lords or at the Wanderers. Harbhajan at No.7 at Chennai or at the SSC. It is those sorts of venues that I am talking about.

[thevortex]

Yes, Fontaine - we are seriously limited in terms of the bowlers we are able to put out. Especially in the spin department. But even then this extreme defensive strategy by the Indian think tank is a bit hard to digest.

[The Outsider]

Again Outsider' date=' Harbhajan at No.7 not at Lords or at the Wanderers. Harbhajan at No.7 at Chennai or at the SSC. It is those sorts of venues that I am talking about.[/quote'] Harbhajan is not a number 7 batsman anywhere. Can you imagine what total we would have been bowled out for at the SSC if Dhoni and Harbhajan were at 6 and 7. It looks fine and dandy on paper to say we have Tendulkar, Sehwag, Laxman, and Dravid in the line up. When it comes down to the actual game, there will always be times, specially when up against a huge score, when you lose 2-3 wickets in a group. In such times 'batsmen' who might look good on paper won't be of much help. You need specialists to dig you out of such situations because only specialists have the right combination of temperament and technique to do so.

[thevortex]

Harbhajan is not a number 7 batsman anywhere. Can you imagine what total we would have been bowled out for at the SSC if Dhoni and Harbhajan were at 6 and 7. It looks fine and dandy on paper to say we have Tendulkar, Sehwag, Laxman, and Dravid in the line up. When it comes down to the actual game, there will always be times, specially when up against a huge score, when you lose 2-3 wickets in a group. In such times 'batsmen' who might look good on paper won't be of much help. You need specialists to dig you out of such situations because only specialists have the right combination of temperament and technique to do so.

If we cannot have Harbhajan at No.7 on this wicket - then you are passing a judgment on this batting lineup, Outsider. If the top 6 cannot make a considerable score - not even on this wicket - then they dont deserve to represent their country. As simple as that. And about digging the team out of situations - on this wicket, there should be no situations at all!!

[Fontaine]

If we cannot have Harbhajan at No.7 on this wicket - then you are passing a judgment on this batting lineup, Outsider. If the top 6 cannot make a considerable score - not even on this wicket - then they dont deserve to represent their country. As simple as that. And about digging the team out of situations - on this wicket, there should be no situations at all!!

Dilshan bowled a rubbish full toss to a player in rubbish form who played a rubbish shot. Bhajji is not a No. 7 batsmen. That's no indication on the top 6. That's purely an indication of his severe limitations and lack of application.

[thevortex]

Dilshan bowled a rubbish full toss to a player in rubbish form who played a rubbish shot. Bhajji is not a No. 7 batsmen. That's no indication on the top 6. That's purely an indication of his severe limitations and lack of application.

As you rightly said, Fontaine. he was out of form. He is certainly a better bat than what he showed himself to be there.

[zen]

#7 for 2 and 3 tests against OZ and NZ respectively In tests, Ind usually goes in with 7 batsmen and 4 bowlers. By #7, I mean, one of the 7 specialist batsmen who play at either #6 or #7, as the top 5 are pretty much settled. For the test series against OZ and NZ, who should play at that position? Should we play Yuvi, Raina or Pujara (batting at 6 w/ Dhoni coming in at 7) or should we get someone like Irfan Pathan in (provoded he is fit) as a bowling all-rounder (batting at #7, w/ Dhoni batting at 6) Irfan has been struggling of late with the ball but in tests a good spell where he is trying to swing the ball to pick up wkts could help him get his confidence back. Since we would have 2 seamers and 2 spinners playing, Irfan wouldn't be in a great pressure to deliver straight away. In batting the famous five (Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar and Laxman) take most of the pressure so again Irfan can look to play himself back in to international cricket batting at #7. The key thing here is to give Irfan the confidence that no matter what happens, he would play the 5 tests at home. If he manages to deliver in tests, w/ both the bat and the ball, then that will give him confidence to do the same in ODIs too for the WC11.

[cowboysfan]

you guys need to forget about Irfan,he is history(atleast as far as BCCI is concerned).I also dont think Yuvi will play another test match.I would go with bhajji,zak,ojha and sreeshanth as our bowlers.

[Ram]

They'll definitely go with Raina. The guy hasnt put a foot wrong since he made his debut. And Irfan in the test side? That is not going to happen for a while at least. When was the last time we went in with the concept of 'bowling all-rounder' in tests?

[zen]

They'll definitely go with Raina. The guy hasnt put a foot wrong since he made his debut. And Irfan in the test side? That is not going to happen for a while at least. When was the last time we went in with the concept of 'bowling all-rounder' in tests?

Last time was probably against SA at A'bad in the test after Sehwag had scored that triple. The scorecard is a sorry affair though but the concept wasn't bad

[Ram]

Last time was probably against SA at A'bad in the test after Sehwag had scored that triple. The scorecard is a sorry affair though

A spot in the test side is certainly not going to be path to citizenship for Irfan in the ODI side. If he has to make his way back into the WC side, he has to do it through avenues other than a spot at no.7 in tests. The combo of 7+4 has worked just fine for us in tests for a while now. There is no way they're going to tweak that to accommodate Irfan in the line-up.

[zen]

I don't really like the 7+4 combination if we play 2 seamers & 2 spinners. To me that 2+2 bowling attack is neither here nor there unless the track is going to be a turner (huge tuner / absolute turner). On flat wkts, if we get to bowl first, the seamers tire out soon so there is no way, we can keep up the pressure by rotating the seamers. Then we have to bring the spinners in early on day 1. To illustrate, the test at Kolkatta against SA (which we won to hold on to our #1 ranking) where the seamers started off well but we couldn't keep the pressure up because we had only 2 seamers, who got tired pretty quickly. And then in SA's 2nd innings, Zak got injured too, if I am not wrong. Luckily the spinners could capitalize on 5th day's pitch. The point is, we need to play an bowling all-rounder if we go in with 2 spinners.

[ravishingravi]

Why do we have these two test match series ? It is a farce. Just play 3 or 5, show them your true quality.

[Clarke]

I don't really like the 7+4 combination if we play 2 seamers & 2 spinners. To me that 2+2 bowling attack is neither here nor there unless the track is going to be a turner (huge tuner / absolute turner). On flat wkts, if we get to bowl first, the seamers tire out soon so there is no way, we can keep up the pressure by rotating the seamers. Then we have to bring the spinners in early on day 1. To illustrate, the test at Kolkatta against SA (which we won to hold on to our #1 ranking) where the seamers started off well but we couldn't keep the pressure up because we had only 2 seamers, who got tired pretty quickly. And then in SA's 2nd innings, Zak got injured too, if I am not wrong. Luckily the spinners could capitalize on 5th day's pitch. The point is, we need to play an bowling all-rounder if we go in with 2 spinners.

If our two seamers cant do much on the flat track, what will the bowling all rounder Irfan do ? U cant drop in form Raina for him. U can get away with ordinary bowling in odis on the pretext of not leaking runs but tests ? Not a chance. Our strength is batting, we try and put runs on the board to apply pressure on the opposition and not weaken it for the sake of including a bowler who did well years back hoping that he'll somehow succeed out of the blue. Ofcourse, if the opposition puts a big total first, its damage control, which is where the batting comes in as well. The 2+2 is what has got us to Rank 1. On a flattish track, the spinners are supposed to bowl a tidy line to force a mistake and the seamers are supposed to use the wear and tear to try and get some reverse swing.

[saneindian]

Irfan at number 7 only if he can bowl consistently at 130 kmph+. Bowling as a 3rd seamer at 120-125kmph in tests played in sub continent is of absolutely no use. Also as reported earlier, Irfan is probably out of cricket for next two months (hence ruling him out for series vs Australia and perhpas NZ as well).

[Lord]

Raina at 6,Dhoni at 7

[VRV Singh]

This debate about 5 bowlers should've been put to bed purely by looking at our '5th bowler options' rather than overanalysing MSD's capabilities to bat top 6. The latter I feel is a bit overstated. Could he not do a job as Eoin Morgan, Marcus North, Ashwell Prince etc do for the other top nations? But that possibility is eroded when you see the options - another seamer e.g Munaf, Mithun (only played in SL due to injuries) or erm...Ashish Nehra or someone. It's hardly inspiring stuff. And as an option to give the new ball bowlers some rotation, it's a pointless exercise. Sehwag and Yuvraj/Raina are competent enough at that - Sehwag I feel is one of the best options around as a genuine partnership breaker. The only potential solution I see is Irfan Pathan. And with his bowling as it is, what would be the point? His batting is hardly good enough to justify dropping Raina or even Yuvraj in exchange for some Collingwood style cutters. We'd need him to at least become a consistent threat with the ball to make it an option.

[zen]

If our two seamers cant do much on the flat track, what will the bowling all rounder Irfan do ? U cant drop in form Raina for him. U can get away with ordinary bowling in odis on the pretext of not leaking runs but tests ? Not a chance. Our strength is batting, we try and put runs on the board to apply pressure on the opposition and not weaken it for the sake of including a bowler who did well years back hoping that he'll somehow succeed out of the blue. Ofcourse, if the opposition puts a big total first, its damage control, which is where the batting comes in as well. The 2+2 is what has got us to Rank 1. On a flattish track, the spinners are supposed to bowl a tidy line to force a mistake and the seamers are supposed to use the wear and tear to try and get some reverse swing.

Arre bhai, in order to get the best out of 2+2 on a normal Indian track that shows signs of turn from around the close of play of day 3, Ind has to hope bat first, which is not always the case. When bowling first in session one with that hard ball, it a zero sum game when you have a spinner coming in to bowl at around over 13 mark. And that too when the spinner is not like Warne, Murali or Kumble. You need 3 seamers to make something out of your attack so if 2 can't do then what will 3 do point doesn't work as the strategy of using them changes. And then when the pitch breaks down, the spinner(s) can take over. So the point is that if we are playing two spinners on a surface that is not going to turn from day 2 onwards, we have to play a bowling all-rounder. That bowling all-rounder can be either a seamer or a spinner. To illustrate, on normal pitch 4 bowlers: 3 seamers + 1 spinner ----> Yes 4 bowlers: 2 seamers + 2 spinners ----> No (esp considering how we can be on a backfoot bowling first) if you want to play 2 spinners, then ----> bowling all-rounder (either a seamer or a spinner), 2/3 seamers, 1/2 spinner(s) And no it is not 2+2 combination that has got us the number 1 ranking, but it is exceptional performances by the likes of Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, GG, Zak, Kumble, etc that has got us there. But I get a feeling that Dhoni is superstitious about 2+2 :P ^ That's the first part of my argument, which I believe is absolutely essential The 2nd part is using Irfan as the bowling all-rounder to play 2 spinners. And like I said Irfan isn't doing that well atm so folks would either agree with me or disagree with me on the 2nd part depending upon their opinion on Irfan

[The Outsider]

Test cricket is not the place for bits and pieces cricketers. Irfan is just that at the moment, a bits and pieces cricketer. He should be able to command a place as a batsman or a bowler on his own, which he fails to do. However, I do agree that the strategy of playing 2 spinners on pitches which are not rank turners isn't the best one around, specially if we lose the toss we are on the back foot immediately. If Zaheer, Ishant, and Sreesanth are all fit, they should all play and Sehwag needs to play a bigger role as a second spinner.