Dassault Rafale wins $10.4 billion MMRCA deal; Beats eurofighter typhoon

[hari504504]

starting next year (or end of this year), sukhoi's are gonna go under comprehensive upgrade (AESA radar, new engine, new avionics suite and other fancy electronics components). Some frame modifications will also be made to accommodate air of version of brahmos. Since sukhois utilize 2 onboard pilots/officers, with the new upgrades, it will be able to function as a mini AEW&C along with having a better payload capacity. So PAKFA will serve to neutralize enemy's air force that is airborne, while su 30 in conjunction with rafale will be tasked with taking out ground targets (of course, they are still formidable air to air platforms but once J20 is developed, PAKFAs will be extremely important).

http://www.asian-defence.net/2011/03/indian-su-30mki-to-get-aesa-radar-under.html HAL will start modernization of last batch of 40 Sukhoi Su 30MKI under Å´uper -30 Project from 2012. Russian and Indian Specialist are still working on technical performance, under this Project Indian government will be allocating close to US$2.4 billion for Deep Modernization for all the Sukhoi Su30 MKI fleet currently but these upgrades will be carried out only on newly built Su-30, which will be last batch of Su-30 to join IAF. This seems to only be a stop-gap measure. We are slowing down on inducting more Sukhois into our inventory in anticipation of the PakFA. I think PakFA will eventually completely replace the Sukhois rather than both of them coexisting. This first 40 aircrafts will also get, strengthening of air frame to enable them to carry near 2.5 tonne, Air launched version of Brahmos , Indian air force have already provided two Su-30MKI aircrafts in 2010 to carry out such modification to the airframe and Air launch variant is also ready only integration with airframe is left . Under Å´uper -30 Project, Su 30MKI will get Russian Phazotron Zhuk-AE Active Electronically Scanned Array AESA radars along with new onboard mission computers, electronic warfare systems and new Russian BVR Missiles rumored to be Novator K-100 missile also known has Å¢WCS Killer and also IndiaÃÔ own Astra BVR Missile. Current batches of Su -30 which HAL has been manufacturing are from MKI-3 variants which are further improvement over earlier batches, and Å´uper -30 upgrades will be carried out in batch wise and older lot of MKI-1 will be covered first. After initial 40 plus aircrafts, older aircrafts will not be receiving any airframe modification to carry Air launched variant of Brahmos, so Brahmos air variant will limited to certain number airframes of MKI fleet only and not all, but all other aircraft fleet of Sukhoi 30 in Indian air force will be able to carry DRDO developed Sub-sonic Cruise Missile ůirbhay and other newly developed BVR missiles.

[surajmal]

There are things su 30 can do that PAKFA wont be able to because of PAKFA's limited payload (as everything will be contained in its internal weapon bays - while there will be external hard points, utilizing those increases Radar cross section and in the long run is not recommended for the frame since PAKFA primary role is to be a air superiority fighter and not a ground attack plane) . I know only some of the su 30s are slated for "super 30" upgrade but that says more about the wait and see approach of IAF. Using a frontline fighter jet as a pseudo AEW&C is rare (I can think of only US Navy that uses FA 18 'growler' to supplement E-2D Hawkeye). So if IAF likes the modifications, it will order upgrades for its entire 269 strong sukhoi fleet ( 3 have crashed). They can't slow down/stop the production since it is a signed contract (there are 160 sukhois in the IAF, so another ~100 fighters are to be delivered over the 5-6 years). The idea is to have a offensive AEW&C (keeping china in mind) since china airspace is bulletproof (with regards to SAMs). So having traditional AWACS and AEW&C in chinese airspace is suicide. Phalcon AWACS, DRDO AEW&C (ERJ 145 is the platform) and whatever DRDO comes up with as a solution to indigenous AWACS will be used to secure Indian airspace only. "Super 30" will sort of act like the point man, if air battle shifts to enemy's airspace.

[hari504504]

There are things su 30 can do that PAKFA wont be able to because of PAKFA's limited payload (as everything will be contained in its internal weapon bays - while there will be external hard points, utilizing those increases Radar cross section and in the long run is not recommended for the frame since PAKFA primary role is to be a air superiority fighter and not a ground attack plane) . I know only some of the su 30s are slated for "super 30" upgrade but that says more about the wait and see approach of IAF. Using a frontline fighter jet as a pseudo AEW&C is rare (I can think of only US Navy that uses FA 18 'growler' to supplement E-2D Hawkeye). So if IAF likes the modifications, it will order upgrades for its entire 269 strong sukhoi fleet ( 3 have crashed). They can't slow down/stop the production since it is a signed contract (there are 160 sukhois in the IAF, so another ~100 fighters are to be delivered over the 5-6 years). The idea is to have a offensive AEW&C (keeping china in mind) since china airspace is bulletproof (with regards to SAMs). So having traditional AWACS and AEW&C in chinese airspace is suicide. Phalcon AWACS, DRDO AEW&C (ERJ 145 is the platform) and whatever DRDO comes up with as a solution to indigenous AWACS will be used to secure Indian airspace only. "Super 30" will sort of act like the point man, if air battle shifts to enemy's airspace.

Interesting.. Battlefield 2020 would be an interesting affair.. Talk about power projection.. Wonder what would our Aircraft carriers have onboard ? Rafales, LCA naval or Mig 29s ? By 2020 we are expected to have 3 Aircraft Carriers in service - with Viraat retiring and being replaced by Gorshkov as our flagship plus 2 indigenous carriers currently being constructed. Gorshkov is surely coming with its set of Migs as part of the deal, so reasonable to assume that the other 2 carriers would host the modified Rafales ? (assuming the Rafales are compatible)

[surajmal]

Interesting.. Battlefield 2020 would be an interesting affair.. Talk about power projection.. Wonder what would our Aircraft carriers have onboard ? Rafales, LCA naval or Mig 29s ? By 2020 we are expected to have 3 Aircraft Carriers in service - with Viraat retiring and being replaced by Gorshkov as our flagship plus 2 indigenous carriers currently being constructed. Gorshkov is surely coming with its set of Migs as part of the deal, so reasonable to assume that the other 2 carriers would host the modified Rafales ? (assuming the Rafales are compatible)

Rafale is a heavy plane so can't be used on vikramaditya or IAC 1 since both utilize STOBAR (ski jump take off). There are plans (though unconfirmed) that IAC 2 will be 65000 ton class and utilize CATOBAR (catapult assisted takeoff), so Navy may want to think about using Rafale on that. 46 MIG 29Ks are on order. Can't say how many NLCAs will be made. But I figure between 46 migs, unknown NLCAs and ASW and AEW helicopters, It will be enough to make up the inventory of both carriers. There will be a naval version of PAKFA, so by the time IAC 2 comes around (this is India, so lets face it, 2020 is an optimistic estimate), navy may opt for naval PAKFA.

[Zelch]

India told Britain: We don't want your aid but relented after Brits begged to keep taking the aid

Pranab Mukherjee and other Indian ministers tried to terminate Britain’s aid to their booming country last year - but relented after the British begged them to keep taking the money, The Sunday Telegraph can reveal. The disclosure will fuel the rising controversy over Britain’s aid to India. The country is the world’s top recipient of British bilateral aid, even though its economy has been growing at up to 10 per cent a year and is projected to become bigger than Britain’s within a decade. Last week India rejected the British-built Typhoon jet as preferred candidate for a £6.3 billion warplane deal, despite the Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell, saying that Britain’s aid to Delhi was partly “about seeking to sell Typhoon.” Mr Mukherjee’s remarks, previously unreported outside India, were made during question time in the Rajya Sabha, the upper house of parliament. “We do not require the aid,” he said, according to the official transcript of the session. “It is a peanut in our total development exercises [expenditure].” He said the Indian government wanted to “voluntarily” give it up. According to a leaked memo, the foreign minister, Nirumpama Rao, proposed “not to avail [of] any further DFID [british] assistance with effect from 1st April 2011,” because of the “negative publicity of Indian poverty promoted by DFID”. But officials at DFID, Britain’s Department for International Development, told the Indians that cancelling the programme would cause “grave political embarrassment” to Britain, according to sources in Delhi. DFID has sent more than £1 billion of UK taxpayers’ money to India in the last five years and is planning to spend a further £600 million on Indian aid by 2015. “They said that British ministers had spent political capital justifying the aid to their electorate,” one source told The Sunday Telegraph. “They said it would be highly embarrassing if the Centre [the government of India] then pulled the plug.”

This is an old report republished by Telegraph in light of the Brit govt whining about the Rafale deal. There was another report explaining how most of the DFID funds go back to Brits in the form of administrative costs, contracts to Brit firms etc. Please post it if someone has it. Thanks.

[1983-2011]

read this article from Abhijit Coconut Pandya Every year Britain gives a staggering Ž£280million in aid to India. India, the country that for the last thousand years has been one of the largest economies in the world. Today India has a space programme, whilst the UK cannot afford one, yet our government continues to pump millions into the Indian economy. India has more billionaires than the UK (in dollar terms), yet the Government continues to channel tax-payer's money there. India is a country that has an economic purchasing power on global markets that is significantly greater than the UKÃÔ. Yet the Government continues to spend British taxpayers' money by siphoning off aid to India. So much for the shortage of funds for sex and ethical education to help the proliferation of teenage mothers in Newcastle. Our own people, when it comes to our politicians, can of course go to hell. At least one might hope that some trade and investment benefits would come from India as a result of our Government throwing so much money at one of the largest economies in the world, and an economy that is projected to be one of the biggest three in the world in around twenty years. However, despite all this aid expenditure, it is France that will enjoy the fruits of the next Indian armaments deal, worth Ž£13billion and 40,000 jobs. Yes, youÃ×e spotted it, a country that can spend $13bn on fighter jets still receives UK aid money from the UK taxpayer, and then doesnÃÕ deal with the UK. Unite, the prominent trade union, has warned that India's decision to purchase 126 French Rafale fighter jets instead of the UK Typhoon aircraft will harm jobs and competitiveness of the UK aerospace industry. LetÃÔ however say that you donÃÕ believe in putting your own country first. Say you felt some guilt complex because you have grown up in reasonably well-off Oxfordshire like David Cameron and have never visited the most deprived areas of Britain - the outskirts of Liverpool in the formative years of your childhood, say. YouÃÅ want to know that your aid money is doing some good and going to a place that desperately needs it and surely, where self-help is simply not possible. YouÃÅ be shocked to know that Malawi, a country far poorer than India, with staggering malnutrition that amounts to starvation only gets Ž£91,000,000 from our international development bucket - almost 25 per cent of IndiaÃÔ allocation. When Lord Heseltine was saying on BBC Question Time last year that we should give money to India because of the feelings of colonisation, he didnÃÕ reach the factual conclusions underlining his logic: they either donÃÕ like us or donÃÕ really care about us. Our attempt to bribe the Indians in this way for trade deals, as the jets issue shows, simply does not work. Now that the Government has lost the Ž£13billion arms deal on the jets, surely the sensible thing is to cut the aid and not add another third of a billion to this loss? You could money on the fact that doing the sensible thing will be the last response from Cameron, while he continues to spend hard-earned tax-payers' money making a wealthy country wealthier and his own country poorer. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2095926/The-Indian-aid-jet-scandals-just-prove-governed-self-righteous-idiots.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[Clarke]

We thought only the English cricket team loves to whine. What about the American fighters rejected from the deal ? Surely their contribution to India since our Independence is greater than that from UK. If this was more about diplomacy & not the requirements of the IAF, it would be nice to opt for an American fighter. One of their machines provided a fifth gen. roadmap in terms of the F-35 as well. Its not like we've cancelled every fookin deal with either country. We're still buying hawk trainers from UK, getting lots of transport aircraft from the US and the commerical jets from Boeing as well as Airbus and that's just planes. Tying up some amount of aid to multi billion deals is sort of silly.

[punjabi_khota]

India is a wealthy country

[vayuu1]

what purpose would the mki serve when the pakFa starts getting inducted ? If FGFA does really become a reality..it would cannibalise Pakfa and become the mainstay air superiority bird in our airforce.

I don 't think so pakfa is a single seater ,and fgfa double seater ,being double seater means u have to compromise with stealth, which is one of the main feature of a 5th gen fighter plane that's why rumours are tha iaf has ordered more pakfa and will use limited no. Of fgfa,what we should really look forward to is AMCA which will be totally indigenous.A medium wieght combat aircraft which will serve the exact purpose ,for which rafale has been selected ,pakfa would be a air superiority fighter.

[diga]

India’s $11 billion Rafale jet deal delayed NEW DELHI — India postponed a final agreement to buy 126 Rafale combat planes worth more than $11 billion from Dassault Aviation to the next fiscal year as the government has almost exhausted its annual defense budget for purchases.Shortage of funds for capital spending in the year ending March is one of the reasons leading to the delay in signing the final deal, Defense Minister A.K. Antony said here Thursday. The ministry has already spent 92 percent of the allocated funds, he said.“Major procurements are only possible next year,” Antony said after opening a defense exhibition in the capital.The ministry will seek to boost next year’s budget as lack of funds also hurt India’s plan to take delivery of some Lockheed Martin Corp. C-130J planes, Antony said. Asia’s third- largest economy has tripled defense spending over the past decade as it increasingly looks beyond Russia to modernize the military and orders arms from countries including the U.S.About 79 billion rupees ($1.3 billion) from the defense ministry’s capital budget has been diverted for paying salaries and meeting other expenses, Antony said. The government said in its federal budget that the nation’s defense spending will increase by 14 percent to 2.04 trillion rupees this year. Of the total expenditure, 867.4 billion rupees was to be used to modernize the forces, up 25 percent from a year earlier.Final negotiations with Dassault over pricing Rafale jets are also continuing, Antony said, adding that he expects the deal to be completed next fiscal year.In 2012, the government chose Dassault to supply at least 126 Rafale combat planes after initiating the purchase plan about five years earlier. Until India decided on the Rafale, Dassault had failed to win any export contracts for the jet.Antony said India’s Central Bureau of Investigation is in the final stages of its probe into allegations of corruption in a $753 million deal to buy helicopters from AgustaWestland. In January, the nation scrapped the contract after a 15-month investigation.India is also working to boost local production of defense gear with a goal to raise the proportion of equipment built at home to 75 percent from about 30 percent in the coming decade. Antony said the country will build a substantial portion of its defense requirements locally in the next 10 years.

[KeyboardWarrior]

Just Delayed ? Nothing to worry about ... It will be a Good Deal for IAF .... :two_thumbs_up:

[diga]

Just Delayed ? Nothing to worry about ... It will be a Good Deal for IAF .... :two_thumbs_up:

elections are coming .. daal mein kuch kala hain

[Muloghonto]

Look there is no doubting that the British raped the country and in the end destroyed us completely by dividing us along religious lines. But we need to move on, it has been over 60 years now, we should forgive but not forget, I realize that this is easier said than done. But I think both nations are acting like children, and besides the UK has a lot of Indians running there and wanting to live there. In fact it surprises me that Indian people are quick to denounce the West and yet millions of Indians are eager to live in the west.

There is no doubting the fact that the British economically raped india to bits and messed up the partition royally. But there is also no doubting the benefits India and Indian society has derived from being under the British. The only reason Indian justice system is seen as a proper justice system (even though it is amazingly slow, our judges are not total sham judges as they are in Iran, Saudi, Burma, SE Asia etc) is because the Brits instilled their justice system and mentality to us. Same goes with governance. We are the only major non-white post colonial nation that hasn't had its trysts with despotism since independence and the only colonies in the world who've had zero record of despotism since independence are the British ones. A lot of that has to do with the British. It is weak and misguided to think only on the negatives we've inhereited from the British Raj. We should look at the positives we've derived too. It matters not whether one feels India has benefitted as a whole sum total or lost as a whole sum total of the British presence (in my mind, we have won more than we lost). What matters is that we see both the good and the bad in any scenario. Otherwise its just propaganda and childishness.

[Muloghonto]

I don 't think so pakfa is a single seater ' date='and fgfa double seater ,being double seater means u have to compromise with stealth, which is one of the main feature of a 5th gen fighter plane that's why rumours are tha iaf has ordered more pakfa and will use limited no. Of fgfa,what we should really look forward to is AMCA which will be totally indigenous.A medium wieght combat aircraft which will serve the exact purpose ,for which rafale has been selected ,pakfa would be a air superiority fighter.[/quote'] No point in the PAKFA or FGFA. This whole trying to make a new 5th gen. fighter craft is something that we can thump our chests about but is ultimately going to put us behind in the ballgame. There is a new game in town. Its called UAVs. For the last two years, USAF has inducted more UAV pilots than manned arial crafts pilots. Even then the bulk of the US manned pilots inducted in the last few years are for helicopters and military freight. Combat pilots for the last two/three years have dominated the UAV pilots list. India can become a world-beater in UAVs or atleast, competetitve with the best because we already do have UAV capabilities and our technological background, along with the fact that UAVs are new technology means we are not that far behind the ballgame. I'd have us rather develop and pour money into being one of the foremost cutting edge nations in UAVs than pour billions in trying to play catchup (manned fighters) in an industry where we are decades behind the best, given that this is already becomming an obsolete industry.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

On 2/8/2014 at 5:13 PM, Muloghonto said:

Quote

Look there is no doubting that the British raped the country and in the end destroyed us completely by dividing us along religious lines. But we need to move on, it has been over 60 years now, we should forgive but not forget, I realize that this is easier said than done. But I think both nations are acting like children, and besides the UK has a lot of Indians running there and wanting to live there. In fact it surprises me that Indian people are quick to denounce the West and yet millions of Indians are eager to live in the west.

There is no doubting the fact that the British economically raped india to bits and messed up the partition royally. But there is also no doubting the benefits India and Indian society has derived from being under the British. The only reason Indian justice system is seen as a proper justice system (even though it is amazingly slow, our judges are not total sham judges as they are in Iran, Saudi, Burma, SE Asia etc) is because the Brits instilled their justice system and mentality to us. Same goes with governance. We are the only major non-white post colonial nation that hasn't had its trysts with despotism since independence and the only colonies in the world who've had zero record of despotism since independence are the British ones. A lot of that has to do with the British. It is weak and misguided to think only on the negatives we've inhereited from the British Raj. We should look at the positives we've derived too. It matters not whether one feels India has benefitted as a whole sum total or lost as a whole sum total of the British presence (in my mind, we have won more than we lost). What matters is that we see both the good and the bad in any scenario. Otherwise its just propaganda and childishness.

 

 

 

and...fast forward to 2020.

 

EVERY british institution is being dismantled. whether its parliamentary democracy, a system of [outdated, colonial era] laws, and most of all....secularism. all being thrown into the garbage. even gandhi and nehru, britain's favorite "indians", are having their legacies torn apart. nehru's legacy is more or less in the gutter after the revocation of article 370.

 

so much for that, eh.

 

 

meanwhile, britain has re-organized it's "aid" programmes around NGOs. they work directly against the government without drawing any scrutiny. and its impossible for india to protest this political interference, because the british go out of their way to portray india as a poverty-stricken land of rapists that MUST NEED FOREIGN HELP AT ALL COSTS!!!

[coffee_rules]

 

[diga]

^ the full video of the display in Sion Airshow, Switzerland

 

 

 

[Vilander]

On 2/8/2014 at 5:13 PM, Muloghonto said:

We are the only major non-white post colonial nation that hasn't had its trysts with despotism since independence and the only colonies in the world who've had zero record of despotism since independence are the British ones. A lot of that has to do with the British.

Usual bs from ghanta chacha. If India is the only colony that did not have despotism meaning other colonies had the said despotism in spite of having their 'white masters instill(ing) their justice system and manners' into them, then it probably has more to do with India than the white rulers including Britain.

[coffee_rules]

This thread is amazing 8 yr old, it was UPA when the deal was announced. Only now has the first jet been delivered.

[raki05]

2 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

This thread is amazing 8 yr old, it was UPA when the deal was announced. Only now has the first jet been delivered.

That's the bureaucracy issue I was highlighting in other thread. Time when deal was made it's been 8 years, had we have got the raffael even after 4 years of deal we would have a complete squarden of rafel by now with trained pilot. It clearly reflect corruption and redtapism of our bureaucratic process.