Dhoni - Greatest Indian captain

[gattaca]

Largely irrelevant. in 2003, Pakistan, New Zealand, Australia, Sri Lanka and South Africa were better teams than they are today. Who you have at your disposal is half the story. How they match up to the opposition is the other half. You can have 3 Sir Jadejas, 2 Dale Steyns and 2 Kohlis sitting around and if the opposition has 3 laras, 3 marshalls and 2 shane warne's sitting around, then you clearly have inferior talent. Ganguly's era was top-heavy. Meaning, we had better superstars but much much thinner bench strength. In any team sport, its the bench strength that makes up nearly half the team's success story.

bench strength come in to play only when someone is injured or if someone is in terrible form. I don't think 2003 it was the case. We had only one bad game in the league match against Australia. We did good in every game except the final and league match against australia. your argument of thinner bench doesn't hold. Try something else.

[Raghav_12]

In ODI's he competes for greatest ever.. in Tests he may compete for worst ever captain.(among capatains with significant number of tests).

[Muloghonto]

bench strength come in to play only when someone is injured or if someone is in terrible form. I don't think 2003 it was the case. We had only one bad game against Australia. We did every game except the final and league match against australia. your argument of thinner bench doesn't hold. Try something else.

By bench strength, I mean players who are not guaranteed a spot. Every team,even the great Aussie team of half a decade ago, had atleast 2-3 players who were in that category. Bench strength is not permanently relegated to the bench, its the revolving door of players trying to establish themselves/trying not to lose their spots. Currently, Ishant Sharma, Yadav, KKD are 'bench strength' category players: any given day, they can either sit on the benches or make the XI. The biggest benefit IPL has had for India is that in limited overs, we've managed to come up with 15-20 players who have basic competency at international level. Ie, they wont rock your world but they are even odds at doing their job or being a liability. 10 years ago, Indian team had 6-7 'sure shots' in the team and 4-5 players who were odds-on to fail far more than succeed because they lacked quality development.

[jalebi_bhai]

bench strength come in to play only when someone is injured or if someone is in terrible form.

Wrong. Having a strong bench strength plays a significant role in ensuring that players in your first 11 don't get complacent. Having a very strong reserve pool of players is one of the reasons why Australia remained dominant for 2 decades. The Aussies knew that they didn't have a long rope for failures.....2-3 bad series......and they could've been out for a year......replaced by someone equally good.....it is the very same problem they are facing atm......their bench strength is horrible atm.......

[gattaca]

Wrong. Having a strong bench strength plays a significant role in ensuring that players in your first 11 don't get complacent. Having a very strong reserve pool of players is one of the reasons why Australia remained dominant for 2 decades. The Aussies knew that they didn't have a long rope for failures.....2-3 bad series......and they could've been out for a year......replaced by someone equally good.....it is the very same problem they are facing atm......their bench strength is horrible atm.......

Again if we didnt loose a single match in the tournament except for two matches how can you say someone can be complacent. In a major tournament unless if someone is terribly out form you dont drop him. I remember 2003 world cup we played pretty good. you need to read the discussion before thinking too far.

[sscomp32]

No doubt the Greatest LOI Captain Ever. :two_thumbs_up:

No captain bounced back like this after hitting rock bottom.

:agree:

[jalebi_bhai]

Again if we didnt loose a single match in the tournament except for two matches how can you say someone can be complacent. In a major tournament unless if someone is terribly out form you dont drop him. I remember 2003 world cup we played pretty good. you need to read the discussion before thinking too far.

Having initially brought up the point of talent pool in this thread...........I was not referring to the 15 man squad for a tournament.......I was referring to the main list of centrally contracted players......you know......more along the lines of the best 30 players in the country.......the bench strength Australia had back then was ridiculous......

[Sean Bradley]

Dhoni is the greatest Indian 'ODI' captain, he is a mediocre test captain, India's best test captain was Rahul Dravid, not even Ganguly.

[jalebi_bhai]

Dhoni is the greatest Indian 'ODI' captain' date=' he is a mediocre test captain, India's best test captain was Rahul Dravid, not even Ganguly.[/quote'] The debate about 'greatness' is not limited to the number of matches/series won or lost at home/away.......'the greatest' is not necessarily 'the most successful'.......greatness and success are mutually inclusive but they are not the same thing.........context and circumstances play a key role in defining greatness and success....... MS Dhoni = Most Successful Indian Captain Sourav Ganguly = Greatest Indian Captain

[Sidhoni]

The debate about 'greatness' is not limited to the number of matches/series won or lost at home/away.......'the greatest' is not necessarily 'the most successful'.......greatness and success are mutually inclusive but they are not the same thing.........context and circumstances play a key role in defining greatness and success....... MS Dhoni = Most Successful Indian Captain Sourav Ganguly = Greatest Indian Captain

Yea whatever, I'll take successful over great anyday kthxbye.

[jalebi_bhai]

Yea whatever' date=' I'll take successful over great anyday kthxbye.[/quote'] Ok.....:bye:.......

[Muloghonto]

Dhoni is the greatest Indian 'ODI' captain' date=' he is a mediocre test captain, India's best test captain was Rahul Dravid, not even Ganguly.[/quote'] Err....no. Just, no. Dravid was Gavaskar lite. He was too quick to play out a draw than go for the kill IMO. Dont get me wrong, practically every Indian captain has intiated the '***** it, lets draw the game' option, Dravid came across as someone too quick to jump on that. Dravid we are seeing in IPL is a totally different Dravid than when he captained. he was very monotonous- if anything, i thought he also stuck to a failing plan for far too long.

[Muloghonto]

Yea whatever' date=' I'll take successful over great anyday kthxbye.[/quote'] Then you should not be taking part in this discussion. As i said, success is almost 95-98% determined by non-captaincy issues, the captain's input is probably 2-5% of the outcome, if that. A monkey on autopilot will have a better record as WI captain of the 80s than Jesus himself captaining the Bangle boys. There is little or no correlation between being the greatest captain and the most successful captain, so I'd say those who want to argue 'better record = better captain', kindly exit the thread.

[gulgulumal]

Dhoni's tactics and team's response Dhoni think differently during any pressure situations. Even England batters wouldn't have expected Ishant to get another over... and when they saw him they wanted to make the most of tht over. Dhoni would've thought that if the duo was to be there till the end, the match wouldn't go till the 20th. So, it was definitely a gamble that he took by giving Ishant another go. Remember that they needed just 28 off 18 and the kind of touch the two batsmen were in, wud've made it a cakewalk. The trick was to make the batsmen play attacking shots against a nervous Ishant and India stood a chance to get them then, ONLY then. I'm so thrilled that it paid off in the end :)))) Thrz no luck as such, its all just match situations... As Dhoni always says, its all part and parcel of the game! :)))) The astonishing improvement that the fielding dept of this young blue brigade shows is the evidence of the higher energy levels that they are at and their superb fighting spirit. Thanks to the Raina-Kohli-Jadeja trio that keeps it alive and fighting in the in-field all the time. It looks like even Ashwin is feeling its heat and is being pushed out of his usual self to pull off blinders in the slip cordon. It was a fantastic team effort by team India and they deserve every bit of the appreciation that's being showered on them. It was definitely not a STEAL that brought them the trophy, as the cricinfo heading says today, rather a disciplined attack by a spirited team under an ice-cool captain, who became the first captain to have won all the ICC championship titles with this. Kudos to team India! :yay:

[Muloghonto]

Dhoni think differently during any pressure situations. Even England batters wouldn't have expected Ishant to get another over... and when they saw him they wanted to make the most of tht over. Dhoni would've thought that if the duo was to be there till the end, the match wouldn't go till the 20th. So, it was definitely a gamble that he took by giving Ishant another go. Remember that they needed just 28 off 18 and the kind of touch the two batsmen were in, wud've made it a cakewalk. The trick was to make the batsmen play attacking shots against a nervous Ishant and India stood a chance to get them then, ONLY then. I'm so thrilled that it paid off in the end :)))) Thrz no luck as such, its all just match situations... As Dhoni always says, its all part and parcel of the game! :)))) The astonishing improvement that the fielding dept of this young blue brigade shows is the evidence of the higher energy levels that they are at and their superb fighting spirit. Thanks to the Raina-Kohli-Jadeja trio that keeps it alive and fighting in the in-field all the time. It looks like even Ashwin is feeling its heat and is being pushed out of his usual self to pull off blinders in the slip cordon. It was a fantastic team effort by team India and they deserve every bit of the appreciation that's being showered on them. It was definitely not a STEAL that brought them the trophy, as the cricinfo heading says today, rather a disciplined attack by a spirited team under an ice-cool captain, who became the first captain to have won all the ICC championship titles with this. Kudos to team India! :yay:

++ He is an excellent LOI captain. There is no denying that. Dhoni is excellent at putting pressure on batsmen via scoring rates at LOI games. I am just not sold on his captaincy accumen when it involves getting set batsmen out when they can bat for 2 days, ie, Test cricket.

[adi B]

greatest limited ovr captain- BIG YES greatest test captain-NO

[gulgulumal]

To a great extent, u r correct. Dhoni uses waiting game tactic many a times and in test cricket, which may not work out in tht format.

[adi B]

Knowing Dhoni's pattern' date=' there is a big loss around the corner for us :winky: . Mentally prepared.. i will have hope that there will also be a huge win around the corner.. Hope we win the test championship that they are planning. :two_thumbs_up:[/quote'] will it be the aftermath of the WC?we toured windies after wc then came the greatest downfall i.e england and aus tour.. in this case also we tour windies after winning the trophy and then starts the cycle of away tours-saf,nzl,eng :nervous:

[Detonator]

Let's have a look at some players from that team shall we: Sehwag (debuted under Jadeja, broke through under Ganguly) Gambhir (debuted under Ganguly, broke through under Dravid/Dhoni) Dhoni (debuted under Ganguly, broke through Dravid/himself) Yuvraj (debuted and broke through under Ganguly) Harbhajan (debuted and broke through under Ganguly) Zaheer (debuted and broke through under Ganguly) Nehra (debuted and broke through under Ganguly) Around half the squad that won the Cup had some sort of influence from Ganguly...... Regarding the Chappell - Ganguly episode....let's see how that panned out eventually for both of them.....Ganguly made a successful comeback to the squad and became a part of the number 1 ranked test side in the world....retiring on a high......he is now a successful TV analyst.......Chappell, on the other hand, has been unceremoniously dumped by his own cricket board.......

+1 For me 2003 WC Squad were far better team than 2011 squad, but the Aussies were almost invincible at that time.

[adi B]

under ganguly we became competitive in world cricket,started reaching finals ,dhoni took us a step further by winning the finals..it all starts from the basics and the root.. in tests ganguly over dhoni for me,just cannot forget the humiliation we suffered