Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[speedheat]

LOIs are a different ball game. You have to bowl only 4 or 10 overs with shorter spells, so ofcourse bowlers can go allout. We are talking about tests here, right? No team has ever had bowlers only bowling 140+ in tests because having the stamina to do that all day is very rare.

 

Yes buddy loi are different bowl game but its perfectly fine for me if bowler bowls within himself in test matches but charges in at 140+ in loi even styen bond

Morkel Fernando amir boult does the same isn't it ?? But you cannot call them medium fast

[kira]

21 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

As an example see this set of video from 2006 tour to SA. Zaheer is seen here bowling some 10 to 12 balls, most of them wicket deliveries. The speeds are between 126 k to 135k. Nothing above 135k with the average being 132k. Zaheer was certainly at his peak in 2006. As I said, it's a myth that Zak was a fast bowler, he was a highly skilled medium fast bowler.

 

 

Hazlewood again bowls 135 to 140k. Other than Starc which established bowler bowls above 140k in Aus? NZ and Eng have bowlers who bowl slower than likes of Umesh and Aaron but are much more skilled. That's why I am saying it is of no use having just pace. You have to look at the whole package.

Zaheer bowled 140+ in the 2003 world cup, it is not a myth, zaheer was fast in his early days

[speedheat]

LOIs are a different ball game. You have to bowl only 4 or 10 overs with shorter spells, so ofcourse bowlers can go allout. We are talking about tests here, right? No team has ever had bowlers only bowling 140+ in tests because having the stamina to do that all day is very rare.

 

We are not discussing ONLY tests match pace here

[Forever Indian]

17 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Its a different thing for a bowler to bowl under 140 when he is established and experienced than a young bowler debuting and bowling 135K. As bowler age, they reduce their pace on purpose and rely more on their experience but event hen guy like Zak could up their pace when needed. You dont need to bowl 140 plus all the time but you must have that option thaty when needed, you can up the pace and bowler 140 plus. BIggest example is Dale Steyn. He is a master of surprising batsmen with sudden high pace. 

 

Regarding Zaheer in his early days, an average pace of 138KPH is very good. To average 138, one has to bowl a lot of deliveries over 140 plus. We are not talking about bowling 140KPH plus every ball but the ability to bowl 140 plus when required which Zaheer and I have seen Zaheer from his debut and he was 140+ most of the time in his early days.

In 2006 Zaheer was young as well, and as shown in the video he was averaging speed of around 132k with no ball above 135k. His balls ranged from 126k to 135k.

 

I have never said pace is not an asset. But judging a bowler just based on pace is what I dont like. It is like judging a batsman just based on say Strike Rate or Technique alone when we know there are other skills as well which make the whole package.

[Forever Indian]

23 minutes ago, kira said:

Zaheer bowled 140+ in the 2003 world cup, it is not a myth, zaheer was fast in his early days

Zaheer did go allout in that WC and bowled his fastest then. That was the exception rather than the norm, especially when it comes to longer format.

[rkt.india]

11 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

In 2006 Zaheer was young as well, and as shown in the video he was averaging speed of around 132k with no ball above 135k. His balls ranged from 126k to 135k.

 

I have never said pace is not an asset. But judging a bowler just based on pace is what I dont like. It is like judging a batsman just based on say Strike Rate or Technique alone when we know there are other skills as well which make the whole package.

Zaheer was young in age at 28 but not very young when it comes to international cricket 2006. He had played 6 years of international cricket and had lost pace due to his poor fitness, gained a lot of weight and was bowling very slow and poorly on Pakistan tour to India in early 2006 into 120s. He was then dropped and he went to county cricket, played a full season of county cricket, got his form back, lost some weight and then came back. He was not hitting 140 consistently as he did previous to 2004, but he could still 140. He hit 140 on occasions whenever he striven for even on his last SA tour in 2013 but the main thing that let him down was his fitness and he lost the stamina to bowl quick for a considerable period of time as the weight he gained never really reduced and he never got his fitness of pre-2004 back. If he had not lost the discipline as a cricketer, he could have become a great bowler but he could not and ended his career just as an above average bowler.

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, Forever Indian said:

As an example see this set of video from 2006 tour to SA. Zaheer is seen here bowling some 10 to 12 balls, most of them wicket deliveries. The speeds are between 126 k to 135k. Nothing above 135k with the average being 132k. Zaheer was certainly at his peak in 2006. As I said, it's a myth that Zak was a fast bowler, he was a highly skilled medium fast bowler.

 

 

Hazlewood again bowls 135 to 140k. Other than Starc which established bowler bowls above 140k in Aus? NZ and Eng have bowlers who bowl slower than likes of Umesh and Aaron but are much more skilled. That's why I am saying it is of no use having just pace. You have to look at the whole package.

Buddy, Zaheer made his debut in 2000, not 2006. Btw, all bowlers in world, I mean all.... All of them on an average are 135-140ish bowlers. Please check the history of all the bowlers. Except for shoaib akhtar and Brett Lee, all of them bowled at an average of 135-140ish, so your arguments stands nullified!

 

 

[speedheat]

Zaheer was young in age at 28 but not very young when it comes to international cricket 2006. He had played 6 years of international cricket and had lost pace due to his poor fitness, gained a lot of weight and was bowling very slow and poorly on Pakistan tour to India in early 2006 into 120s. He was then dropped and he went to county cricket, played a full season of county cricket, got his form back, lost some weight and then came back. He was not hitting 140 consistently as he did previous to 2004, but he could still 140. He hit 140 on occasions whenever he striven for even on his last SA tour in 2013 but the main thing that let him down was his fitness and he lost the stamina to bowl quick for a considerable period of time as the weight he gained never really reduced and he never got his fitness of pre-2004 back. If he had not lost the discipline as a cricketer, he could have become a great bowler but he could not and ended his career just as an above average bowler.

 

Great post buddy!! 👍 that's what I was trying to convince @Forever Indian hope he understood

[speedheat]

Buddy, Zaheer made his debut in 2000, not 2006. Btw, all bowlers in world, I mean all.... All of them on an average are 135-140ish bowlers. Please check the history of all the bowlers. Except for shoaib akhtar and Brett Lee, all of them bowled at an average of 135-140ish, so your arguments stands nullified!

 

 

 

Spot on!!

[Forever Indian]

1 hour ago, Forever Indian said:

When Zak was an established bowler and for most of his career his speed was 135 to 140k. Ofcourse the odd balls would be above 140k but the average speed was just around 135 to 138k. Kapil was not slow but not above 140K on average as the poster suggested.

 

A skilled 135k bowler will always trump an unskilled 140k bowler. Speed is just another weapon in a bowler's armoury and not the only one.

 

So saying anyone bowling below 140K should automatically be kicked out is plain stupidity. You never judge a bowler with just one facet.

 

24 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Buddy, Zaheer made his debut in 2000, not 2006. Btw, all bowlers in world, I mean all.... All of them on an average are 135-140ish bowlers. Please check the history of all the bowlers. Except for shoaib akhtar and Brett Lee, all of them bowled at an average of 135-140ish, so your arguments stands nullified!

 

 

Look at my post above. As I said 135k skilled bowler is much better than unskilled 140k bowler. Below 135k I admit you need to have special skills like Pollock to get wickets consistently.

[Forever Indian]

46 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Zaheer was young in age at 28 but not very young when it comes to international cricket 2006. He had played 6 years of international cricket and had lost pace due to his poor fitness, gained a lot of weight and was bowling very slow and poorly on Pakistan tour to India in early 2006 into 120s. He was then dropped and he went to county cricket, played a full season of county cricket, got his form back, lost some weight and then came back. He was not hitting 140 consistently as he did previous to 2004, but he could still 140. He hit 140 on occasions whenever he striven for even on his last SA tour in 2013 but the main thing that let him down was his fitness and he lost the stamina to bowl quick for a considerable period of time as the weight he gained never really reduced and he never got his fitness of pre-2004 back. If he had not lost the discipline as a cricketer, he could have become a great bowler but he could not and ended his career just as an above average bowler.

 

20 minutes ago, speedheat said:

 

Great post buddy!! that's what I was trying to convince @Forever Indian hope he understood

Neither were tearaways like Brett Lee and Shoaib Akthar great bowlers. Akthar had some good numbers but was always injured and played only 40 odd tests. It is skilled bowlers like McGrath and Pollock who had the numbers and consistency to become great.

 

Steyn could also bowl fast when required. But then again he also can't do that day in and out. It is physically impossible to bowl long spells of 145k+ in tests.

 

If you read through my posts properly I have mentioned multiple times that a bowler should not be judged just by pace, and we should ike at whole package. For eg Dinda can bowl 140k plus but has no skills, so not an International material.

[express bowling]

4 hours ago, Forever Indian said:

As an example see this set of video from 2006 tour to SA. Zaheer is seen here bowling some 10 to 12 balls, most of them wicket deliveries. The speeds are between 126 k to 135k. Nothing above 135k with the average being 132k. Zaheer was certainly at his peak in 2006. As I said, it's a myth that Zak was a fast bowler, he was a highly skilled medium fast bowler.

 

 

Hazlewood again bowls 135 to 140k. Other than Starc which established bowler bowls above 140k in Aus? NZ and Eng have bowlers who bowl slower than likes of Umesh and Aaron but are much more skilled. That's why I am saying it is of no use having just pace. You have to look at the whole package.

 

 

•  Most of this video shows bowling with the new ball with conventional swing on offer.  When pacers try to get conventional swing, they are usually at their slowest.   Despite that, all  the  Zaheer khan deliveries shown in this video are between 129 k and 136 k...barring 1 slower ball at 127 k.  
• Pacers bowl their quickest while trying to reverse the ball and  when there is no conventional swing on offer and they try to hit the deck hard to get bounce and seam movement.   This  video does not show any such part.   We don't even know what Zaheer's quickest ball in this innings is...just saw 10 deliveries by him out of which 8 are near the beginning of the innings.
• Zaheer was a fast-medium pacer during his peak years ....in test matches, he bowled in the range of 130 k to 142 k .....bowled 130 k to 137 k when he was trying to swing the ball conventionally and bowled 135 k to 142 k when he was trying to reverse the ball or trying to get bounce.
• Zaheer was NOT  a one trick pony. He could bowl conventional swing, reverse swing and also bounce out batsmen when needed. He had a good bouncer.  It is not just about release speeds. Ability to bounce the ball is also very important in international cricket  and  Zaheer had it.

Edited February 11, 2017 by express bowling

[Mosher]

Umesh's spell the best I have faced - Shakib

 

Shakib said Umesh's late movement both ways on an unresponsive deck made it hard to lay bat on ball. Although he scored 30 off the 34 balls he faced from Umesh - five boundaries included - just how he made Shakib grope and feel for the ball that he yo-yoed away at pace and got it to reverse, added to the intrigue. He also mixed up his deliveries with cutters. There were bouncers too, mostly accurate.

There were moments when it seemed Umesh would run through the batting line-up, but had to settle for just the one wicket. The pressure he built up, however, resulted in a wicket at the other end when Mahmudullah was prised out by Ishant Sharma.

"Obviously he was bowling really well," Shakib said. "It was probably the best spell I have faced in my career. The way he was moving the ball both ways, it was tremendous. All credit goes to him. I was thinking I need to be positive at that time. If there is a ball to hit, I will obviously hit it and the rest I will play with soft hands, and make sure that I don't nick it.

"There was nothing much on the pitch. Because we play at Kolkata Knight Riders, I know him very well. Probably this was the best spell I have faced in my Test career. The way he was moving the ball both ways, some balls were unplayable. I am lucky that I survived his spell."

Umesh actually found reverse swing from the 14th over, which was the last over of the second day. His ability to swing it both ways with the conventional method gives him the advantage of getting maximum out of a ball that reverses.

"Ishant bowls slightly back of a length. Umesh's length allows him to swing the ball with the new ball and also with the old ball," India's batting coach Sanjay Bangar said. "He's worked a lot on his wrist positions and balance at the crease Ever since the Delhi Test match against South Africa, you've seen him giving the breakthroughs that the team requires.

"Our seamers Umesh, Bhuvi (Bhuvneshwar Kumar), (Mohammed) Shami and Ishant have chipped in with the crucial wickets right at the top or in the middle part of the innings where the spinners were not able to get the breakthrough. So I think the reason for that many Test victories is not only the contribution of the spinners but the small contributions the fast bowlers have made. That's why someone like Umesh stands out because I believe that he's the most improved bowler in the last season and a half."

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-bangladesh-2016-17/content/story/1082015.html

Edited February 11, 2017 by Mosher

[Vilander]

6 hours ago, vishalvirsingh said:

As a matured cricket analyst dinda vinay bhuvi sandeep srinath arvind mithun undakat have represented India and their states ...so they do have some genuine talent...each bowler who has gone n played in 11 for India is gifted.

 

I m OK with bhuvi as he does touch 140 sometimes.

Others don't meet criterion to play for India as a pace bowler.

Bhuvi is 135 to 142 on green tracks and swing too.

On patta too...these pacers shud bowl 140+ else do not play in India 11.

He is Indias fastest ever, he was hitting 142 in the last series of his career in 2003 WC.

[Vilander]

13 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Umesh's spell the best I have faced - Shakib

 

Shakib said Umesh's late movement both ways on an unresponsive deck made it hard to lay bat on ball. Although he scored 30 off the 34 balls he faced from Umesh - five boundaries included - just how he made Shakib grope and feel for the ball that he yo-yoed away at pace and got it to reverse, added to the intrigue. He also mixed up his deliveries with cutters. There were bouncers too, mostly accurate.

There were moments when it seemed Umesh would run through the batting line-up, but had to settle for just the one wicket. The pressure he built up, however, resulted in a wicket at the other end when Mahmudullah was prised out by Ishant Sharma.

"Obviously he was bowling really well," Shakib said. "It was probably the best spell I have faced in my career. The way he was moving the ball both ways, it was tremendous. All credit goes to him. I was thinking I need to be positive at that time. If there is a ball to hit, I will obviously hit it and the rest I will play with soft hands, and make sure that I don't nick it.

"There was nothing much on the pitch. Because we play at Kolkata Knight Riders, I know him very well. Probably this was the best spell I have faced in my Test career. The way he was moving the ball both ways, some balls were unplayable. I am lucky that I survived his spell."

Umesh actually found reverse swing from the 14th over, which was the last over of the second day. His ability to swing it both ways with the conventional method gives him the advantage of getting maximum out of a ball that reverses.

"Ishant bowls slightly back of a length. Umesh's length allows him to swing the ball with the new ball and also with the old ball," India's batting coach Sanjay Bangar said. "He's worked a lot on his wrist positions and balance at the crease Ever since the Delhi Test match against South Africa, you've seen him giving the breakthroughs that the team requires.

"Our seamers Umesh, Bhuvi (Bhuvneshwar Kumar), (Mohammed) Shami and Ishant have chipped in with the crucial wickets right at the top or in the middle part of the innings where the spinners were not able to get the breakthrough. So I think the reason for that many Test victories is not only the contribution of the spinners but the small contributions the fast bowlers have made. That's why someone like Umesh stands out because I believe that he's the most improved bowler in the last season and a half."

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-bangladesh-2016-17/content/story/1082015.html

And so the respect for Sakib grows in India, he just ensured a few years of IPL career with this fair compliment to Yadav.

[express bowling]

Sole Test vs Bangladesh

 

Speed ranges of most deliveries

 

Umesh  135 k to 145 k

Ishant   134 k to 144 k

Bhuvi    127 k to 138 k

 

Umesh  Yadav  bowled  a superb spell  of 9 overs in the morning session today.   He was reversing the ball both ways at high pace and with good accuracy.  Got some seam movement too and bounce on occasions. Slipped in a few bouncers in the middle.   It was an amazing spell  of genuine fast bowling on a flat deck  which resulted in the Bangladeshi batsmen  looking like rookie batsmen for some time including recent double-centurion Shakib.  He could have had 5 wickets on another day. Lost count how many times jaffas were bowled and the batmen played and missed.   Ended up picking 2 wickets so far.

 

He looked a tad tired later in the day after his marathon spell of 9 oers on the trot in the morning.  Genuine fast bowlers should not be given more than 6 over spells to preserve their intensity.

 

Ishant bowled well today after a bad spell yesterday evening. he looked in rhythm, the ball was coming out nicely and he bowled an excellent line and length. Got some reverse inswing too.  The most noticable aspect today was the steep bounce he got at pace. Hit Mushfiqur on the hand once and gave chin music to the batsmen often. Picked up a wicket.

 

Bhuvi bowled in good areas. But, with no conventional swing on offer, he did not look like taking a wicket barring 2 or 3 overs when he had a good LBW appeal turned down. Did not see much reverse swing or bounce from him.  He has been wicketless so far.

 

 

[Mosher]

Kohli should bowl Umesh in short spells of 4 overs and tell him to go all out. Quick bowlers no matter how fit will run out of steam after a long spell like he did today.

 

[Mosher]

11 minutes ago, Vilander said:

And so the respect for Sakib grows in India, he just ensured a few years of IPL career with this fair compliment to Yadav.

Shakib is Umesh's team mate in KKR. Shakib will surely be in the playing 11 in KKR more often now

[Vilander]

4 hours ago, Forever Indian said:

As an example see this set of video from 2006 tour to SA. Zaheer is seen here bowling some 10 to 12 balls, most of them wicket deliveries. The speeds are between 126 k to 135k. Nothing above 135k with the average being 132k. Zaheer was certainly at his peak in 2006. As I said, it's a myth that Zak was a fast bowler, he was a highly skilled medium fast bowler.

 

 

Hazlewood again bowls 135 to 140k. Other than Starc which established bowler bowls above 140k in Aus? NZ and Eng have bowlers who bowl slower than likes of Umesh and Aaron but are much more skilled. That's why I am saying it is of no use having just pace. You have to look at the whole package.

forever what you say here has been said and debated about a bazillion times here, its all done and dusted. I will try to reduce the number of pages this thread will go with your responses and space jizz crowds responses. Many, much more accomplished sophisticated fashionable trundler lovers have said a few things in the past and pace jizz crowd usually responds in a particular fashion.  I will summarize.

 

Zak is a trundler, he is our greatest ever - No, he started as 136 -148, york,swing , then became 137-142 gun, then 132-138 diminished yet very skilled test bowler. It depends on where you pick your videos from.

 

Srinath was not fast - No he was much quicker to his contemporary bowlers and often was faster than the then fastest Donald/Klusner etc and he was slower than only Akthar in a series but then Akthar and Lee left all who everbowled for a period when they had their 160 k feud.

 

Trundlers are good if not better, pace is not the only thing - No one is discounting accuracy, people are just stressing that India needs to find lads who can combine pace with accuracy.

 

I am intellectual, so will support brain over bran and appear sophisticated and be fashionable - sport needs brains with lots of bran, and sophistication equality fairness dont mean much without results in sport.

 

Bhuv is cute, he has nice eyes - he is good when conditions aid him, ask him to eat some protein.

 

 

[Vilander]

11 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Shakib is Umesh's team mate in KKR. Shakib will surely be in the playing 11 in KKR more often now

based on what was on display i kinda rate the little guys muzz ahead of Sakhib as a batsman but obviously Sakib is a better player bowls gold, and can hit in an LOI + being a bengali he makes proper sense for KKR, its a bit like Murali for CSK.