Is Dhoni the greatest Freeloader in the history of this game.

[tothepoint]

Yup. Looks like that.

Whatever floats your G.O.A.T :fishing:

[CoverDrive]

Whatever one says his tactics and plans however crazy played a part in this victory.

[maniac]

The kind of praise he has been getting for lords win strengthens the freeloader tag for sure....maybe a generic freeloader not as hardcore of a definition as raghav pointed out :dontknow:

[Filandering]

Dhoni is monumental figure in Indian cricket. Can't believe how he has been derided.

[velu]

Dhoni is monumental figure in Indian cricket. Can't believe how he has been derided.

welcome to ICF :two_thumbs_up:

[Midfielder]

Dhoni is monumental figure in Indian cricket. Can't believe how he has been derided.

He is average with lot of shortcomings. He needs to be out.

[vvvslaxman]

Dhoni is monumental figure in Indian cricket. Can't believe how he has been derided.

Yup Monumental :hatsoff:

[Yoda-esque]

Dhoni is monumental figure in Indian cricket. Can't believe how he has been derided.

Welcome to ICF

[SLICKR392]

Welcome to ICF

:cantstop:

[Muloghonto]

I dont know by which benchmark is Dhoni a freeloader. People on this board, particularly the 20s-mid 30s generation is completely clueless about wicketkeeping-batsmen because they were spoiled at the sight of once-in-a-lifetime batting wicketkeeper like Gillchrist and then assumed that wicketkeepers should be like Sanga/Dravid/ABDV, ie bonafide batsmen who didnt drop every 5th ball comming their way with gloves on. Let me re-iterate something: a wicketkeeper's job is to keep wickets first. In this regard, Dhoni is no superman but he does 'bat' way above the average. he is one of the best keepers of his generation- not as good as the other Jayawardene but as good as anyone else. He is not consistently horrid at keeping wickets like Prior or Akmal were, he is quite safe and i would put him in the 'slightly below Mark Boucher' category of keeper. He is above average against spin keeping by Indian standards (not as good as Mongia/More/Kiri but as good as Saba Karim) which automatically makes him way above average by international standards. In the last 20 years, if the spinners are Murali/Warne/Kumble/Harbhajan/etc. i can think of only Healy, Mongia, Jayawardene and Rashid Latif doing a better job than Dhoni behind the stumps. (Yes, i intentionally left Gilly out, who was not as good keeping to spin as Dhoni). As far as his batting goes, its limited but almost all wicketkeeper batsmen are. He is no #6 test bat and he is not Gillchrist material with the bat either. But what he is, is adequate with the bat, particularly in the home conditions where he is a bonafide batsman. In overseas condition, so long as Dhoni scores 20 off of 80 balls to occupy the wicket, i will consider his job to be done within expectations. The new crop may be as good in tests-particularly overseas but its a severe devaluation of Dhoni to assume that the new lot will automatically keep as reliably as him or be a genuine batting threat in half the tests they play (ie, at home). Even if Dhoni gave up the captaincy in tests, its still his spot to lose and others have a long, long way to make it so. In tests, the realistic expectations for a wicketkeeper is, if he is a really, really good keeper (the top 1% to play the game), then a 27-30 batting average is more than enough to justify their spot, if he is very good/reliable (this is where Dhoni resides), then a 35ish batting average is enough. But to expect a wicketkeeper to average 40+ in tests, in foreign conditions and keep reliably to spinners and pacers alike, is simply a ridiculous POV because those are once in a generation numbers, if not rarer for a test standard keeper.

[vvvslaxman]

^ Gilly always maintained that point "Whatever i score is a bonus"

[Muloghonto]

^ Gilly always maintained that point "Whatever i score is a bonus"

And it was. He batted behind 2-3 batsmen averaging 50+ and 2-3 other batsmen averaging high 40s all the time. And he batted for a team that boasted 3 of the top 7-8 bowlers in the world at that moment (Warne, McGrath & Gillespie/Lee) so he had the mental assurance that more often than not, whatever he and his batting buddies make, the bowlers will defend. The latter is a huge psychological boost for the batsmen and except for Sehwag, almost all successful super-aggressive batsmen in test cricket come from teams with awesome bowling firepower. Its no coincidence that Lara, Ponting, Viv Richards, Adam Gillchrist - all 50 or near 50 averaging batsmen ( thus, bonafide worldclass) and all super-aggressive by test standards also happened to be part of sides who boasted the top or top 2 bowling attacks of their time. Obviously, to be a super successful super aggressive batsman in tests, the batsman has to have the talent and the instinct for it but what is not appreciated, is that to do so over an entire career requires having the luxury of a bowling unit that will defend a 250ish total more often than not.

[Shunya]

And it was. He batted behind 2-3 batsmen averaging 50+ and 2-3 other batsmen averaging high 40s all the time. And he batted for a team that boasted 3 of the top 7-8 bowlers in the world at that moment (Warne, McGrath & Gillespie/Lee) so he had the mental assurance that more often than not, whatever he and his batting buddies make, the bowlers will defend. The latter is a huge psychological boost for the batsmen and except for Sehwag, almost all successful super-aggressive batsmen in test cricket come from teams with awesome bowling firepower. Its no coincidence that Lara, Ponting, Viv Richards, Adam Gillchrist - all 50 or near 50 averaging batsmen ( thus, bonafide worldclass) and all super-aggressive by test standards also happened to be part of sides who boasted the top or top 2 bowling attacks of their time. Obviously, to be a super successful super aggressive batsman in tests, the batsman has to have the talent and the instinct for it but what is not appreciated, is that to do so over an entire career requires having the luxury of a bowling unit that will defend a 250ish total more often than not.

:omg: Dhoni is here...:adore::adore::adore:

[maniac]

I dont know by which benchmark is Dhoni a freeloader. People on this board, particularly the 20s-mid 30s generation is completely clueless about wicketkeeping-batsmen because they were spoiled at the sight of once-in-a-lifetime batting wicketkeeper like Gillchrist and then assumed that wicketkeepers should be like Sanga/Dravid/ABDV, ie bonafide batsmen who didnt drop every 5th ball comming their way with gloves on. Let me re-iterate something: a wicketkeeper's job is to keep wickets first. In this regard, Dhoni is no superman but he does 'bat' way above the average. he is one of the best keepers of his generation- not as good as the other Jayawardene but as good as anyone else. He is not consistently horrid at keeping wickets like Prior or Akmal were, he is quite safe and i would put him in the 'slightly below Mark Boucher' category of keeper. He is above average against spin keeping by Indian standards (not as good as Mongia/More/Kiri but as good as Saba Karim) which automatically makes him way above average by international standards. In the last 20 years, if the spinners are Murali/Warne/Kumble/Harbhajan/etc. i can think of only Healy, Mongia, Jayawardene and Rashid Latif doing a better job than Dhoni behind the stumps. (Yes, i intentionally left Gilly out, who was not as good keeping to spin as Dhoni). As far as his batting goes, its limited but almost all wicketkeeper batsmen are. He is no #6 test bat and he is not Gillchrist material with the bat either. But what he is, is adequate with the bat, particularly in the home conditions where he is a bonafide batsman. In overseas condition, so long as Dhoni scores 20 off of 80 balls to occupy the wicket, i will consider his job to be done within expectations. The new crop may be as good in tests-particularly overseas but its a severe devaluation of Dhoni to assume that the new lot will automatically keep as reliably as him or be a genuine batting threat in half the tests they play (ie, at home). Even if Dhoni gave up the captaincy in tests, its still his spot to lose and others have a long, long way to make it so. In tests, the realistic expectations for a wicketkeeper is, if he is a really, really good keeper (the top 1% to play the game), then a 27-30 batting average is more than enough to justify their spot, if he is very good/reliable (this is where Dhoni resides), then a 35ish batting average is enough. But to expect a wicketkeeper to average 40+ in tests, in foreign conditions and keep reliably to spinners and pacers alike, is simply a ridiculous POV because those are once in a generation numbers, if not rarer for a test standard keeper.

Don't disagree with most of your post.....dhoni is a good utility cricketer at best who has been heralded as the best thing to happen to indian cricket. I have maintained he will be the keeper in the all time x1 indian line up. He has been thrust in the role of a captain and clearly he is a reluctant captain much in the azhar mould.....may be a little more proactive. Maybe the term freeloader was a bit aggressive but take a look at this win,his captaincy and tactics have been heralded as one of the reasons when it is not.....infact his keeping in the game as well his batting were non existent in the game still all the hype. As I mentioned he is at the right place at the right time and once in a while contributes enough.....he will end up as one of the greatest captains of all time and the biggest Mvps in cricket a guy who could keep-captain and bat. I personally don't think he has earned it. Look at other great or captains with good records? Does dhoni match up to Lloyd,imran,ponting,smith,Waugh,Taylor,ranatunga,flower,jayawardane,kapil,sunny,ganguly,cronje,Fleming,Nasser hussain,Strauss,Clarke,akram as a player? Mano-Mano he is not in the same league,maybe Odis he has a claim that he is better than few of the names but overall his tests,Odis,t20s credentials don't match put his accomplishments. Can't deny he has been given an extended run.

[Muloghonto]

Maniac, your post makes no sense to me, sorry. On one hand you say that he is your candidate for alltime India XI wicketkeeper slot. Well, he isn't mine but thats fair enough, he's earned that right. On the other you say he doesnt matter.... thats just contradictory and it leads to the conclusion that either you want too much from a wicketkeeper or you do not understand the role of the invisible hand they often play. No one is questioning that his captaincy has a lot to be desired but being an awesome player plus crap captain doesnt make one a freeloader. But the terms you use questions Dhonis place in the side. That to me, is rather unquestionable. A guy who you yourself consider your alltime best candidate for your team, being a freeloader and lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time does not make sense. Yes, Dhoni due to his extended run will get the stats of an awesome captain that he doesnt deserve. But no biggie, cricket captaincy is not about numbers and anyone who claims so- or absurd crap like Ponting is a better captain than Ranatunga just has no business talking about captaincy IMO.

[Muloghonto]

I think a lot of the flak Dhoni gets is due to people's recognition of the fact that he is not a good captain in test cricket coupled with their failure to realize that there are no viable options and wont be for a while (and there hasn't been one for a while). There is nobody who has assured his audience that he will be in the team for a while to come- Pujara and Kohli come closest to this but these two are too risky for captaincy. Team India would be finished if either of them crumbled under pressure ala Cook. No, our two new great batting hopes need to focus on turning out as good as promised for the next few years. They need a solid 50 tests under their belt before handling two jobs at once. So for now, it remains Dhoni. as it should be. Not because he is a good captain but because he is the safest bet to be the captain for the next few years.

[maniac]

Maniac, your post makes no sense to me, sorry. On one hand you say that he is your candidate for alltime India XI wicketkeeper slot. Well, he isn't mine but thats fair enough, he's earned that right. On the other you say he doesnt matter.... thats just contradictory and it leads to the conclusion that either you want too much from a wicketkeeper or you do not understand the role of the invisible hand they often play. No one is questioning that his captaincy has a lot to be desired but being an awesome player plus crap captain doesnt make one a freeloader. But the terms you use questions Dhonis place in the side. That to me, is rather unquestionable. A guy who you yourself consider your alltime best candidate for your team, being a freeloader and lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time does not make sense. Yes, Dhoni due to his extended run will get the stats of an awesome captain that he doesnt deserve. But no biggie, cricket captaincy is not about numbers and anyone who claims so- or absurd crap like Ponting is a better captain than Ranatunga just has no business talking about captaincy IMO.

As a guy who can keep and bat dhoni has the numbers to stake a claim in an all time x1 indian side but then again that's not a benchmark is it given with our history of keeper-bats since the days of engineer and kunderan.but dhonis place in indian history as a keeper bat is a debate for another day. dhoni is defintetely not in my top 10-20 list of greatest cricketers produced by India.however given his utility and his captaincy records he may get a free pass into these lists in the future...again solely due to his captaincy records and sheer volumes based on his extended run. Doesn't that equate to being given a free pass? Every other captain I mentioned will make it to the top 10 or 20 list of their respective countries list based on their ability with their captaincy records or capabilities as additional accomplishments to put them ahead of others....it is not the same case with dhoni unfortunately.

[Sooda]

^As a one day cricketer he is surely in the top 10, possibly even top 5 India has produced

[Muloghonto]

So how does dhoni not make the top 10-20 captain list of India given that we've had, everyone included, only 31 test captains ? Over half of them- 16 to be precise- have captained India in less than 10 tests. How is it remotely possible to argue that these people were better captains, given that they barely got to show what they had ? Thats grossly unfair to Dhoni. Yes, he is not a good captain who will have the stats of a good captain. So what ? Ponting is the king daddy of that group of below average captain on field, below average captain out of field and still has one of the ATG records of a captain.

[Midfielder]

I dont know by which benchmark is Dhoni a freeloader. People on this board, particularly the 20s-mid 30s generation is completely clueless about wicketkeeping-batsmen because they were spoiled at the sight of once-in-a-lifetime batting wicketkeeper like Gillchrist and then assumed that wicketkeepers should be like Sanga/Dravid/ABDV, ie bonafide batsmen who didnt drop every 5th ball comming their way with gloves on. Let me re-iterate something: a wicketkeeper's job is to keep wickets first. In this regard, Dhoni is no superman but he does 'bat' way above the average. he is one of the best keepers of his generation- not as good as the other Jayawardene but as good as anyone else. He is not consistently horrid at keeping wickets like Prior or Akmal were, he is quite safe and i would put him in the 'slightly below Mark Boucher' category of keeper. He is above average against spin keeping by Indian standards (not as good as Mongia/More/Kiri but as good as Saba Karim) which automatically makes him way above average by international standards. In the last 20 years, if the spinners are Murali/Warne/Kumble/Harbhajan/etc. i can think of only Healy, Mongia, Jayawardene and Rashid Latif doing a better job than Dhoni behind the stumps. (Yes, i intentionally left Gilly out, who was not as good keeping to spin as Dhoni). As far as his batting goes, its limited but almost all wicketkeeper batsmen are. He is no #6 test bat and he is not Gillchrist material with the bat either. But what he is, is adequate with the bat, particularly in the home conditions where he is a bonafide batsman. In overseas condition, so long as Dhoni scores 20 off of 80 balls to occupy the wicket, i will consider his job to be done within expectations. The new crop may be as good in tests-particularly overseas but its a severe devaluation of Dhoni to assume that the new lot will automatically keep as reliably as him or be a genuine batting threat in half the tests they play (ie, at home). Even if Dhoni gave up the captaincy in tests, its still his spot to lose and others have a long, long way to make it so. In tests, the realistic expectations for a wicketkeeper is, if he is a really, really good keeper (the top 1% to play the game), then a 27-30 batting average is more than enough to justify their spot, if he is very good/reliable (this is where Dhoni resides), then a 35ish batting average is enough. But to expect a wicketkeeper to average 40+ in tests, in foreign conditions and keep reliably to spinners and pacers alike, is simply a ridiculous POV because those are once in a generation numbers, if not rarer for a test standard keeper.

I disagree. Currently he is clueless as far as batting is concerned. Saha and Ojha are not that bad. Captaincy - That is a sore spot. His sidekicks are keeping a good bowler or batsman out. i.e. Binny. You have to be brain dead to pick him. Decision Making - Baffling to say the least. Giving overs to part time bowlers where the good ones hace six or seven overs left. T-20 worls cup loss. Totally on him. Blind man could recognize that yuvraj did not belong but not this stubborn mule. His contribution to Lords win is about same as mine, nothing.