India no longer producing readymade talent - Dhoni

[Vijy]

Our FC system has always produced good batsmen and rarely produced good bowlers. 

Everyone connected to cricket and even interested in cricket know this fact.

i actually feel that our current lot of batsmen are  better at playing pace and bounce than their predecessors barring  Sunil Gavaskar. Their problem is playing swing and that is because they don't get to play county cricket any more...not because of our domestic cricket.

We are producing lots of power hitters too...but somehow they are not being taken .

We have produced just 3 pacers with under 30 test average and no one with under 25 test average...so our problem with pacers is nothing new. We are actually producing more fast bowlers these days...and hopefully we will find a good fast bowler out of them soon.

Our current spinners are also as good or as bad as they used to be in the past. Very good in the sub-continent and average outside.

 

Two biggest steps needed for improvement of our domestic cricket are --

• Increasing the number of zonal matches and competitions being played ...so that the standard of opposition improves a lot. I don't think this will happen practically because individual state level officials wield a lot of power and don't like this concept as this will make them less relevant.
• Make sporting pitches with decent bounce in some matches, instead of mandatory green tops with lowish bounce that we find in most domestic games. These continuous green tops are giving rise to dibbly-dobbly  swing bowlers as big wicket takers in Ranji Trophy instead of bowlers who bowl with effort.  This step is possible practically.

Giving every prospective batsman at least one season of county cricket stint should be thought of too ...but won't really happen in practice due to the IPL.

 

Having more matches would really help, esp if the no. of sides are pruned. As for pitches, I am not optimistic about them producing better bowlers.

[zen]

 

I too believe that Duleep Trophy should be turned in to the premier domestic tournament. However, to do that there has to be some changes in how the playing 11 is selected. The last thing that you want is all those who are near the retirement age or those who have no hopes of getting back in to the international cricket occupying all the slots. As this would beat the purpose of finding talent that is quickly able to adjust to the rigors of international cricket. 

For example, in the playing 11, there should be a couple of slots of under 21 players. And a provision for only a slot for players above the age of 32. May be a slot for an international player can be made available too. 

Coming back to ready made talent. I have not seen or read about too many ready made talent in the history of Indian cricket. Those who immediately come to the mind include Vijay Merchant, Vinoo Mankad, CK Naidu, Md Nissar, Amar Singh, probably Vijay Hazare, Chandra, Bedi, Parsanna, Gavaskar, Azhar, Sidhu, Amre (looked good on his debut in SA), Tendulkar and Sehwag.

So most of the players are from the early period. Those who would naturally have to be very good at cricket to take up the profession at that time. Most of the other players have had to adjust to the learning curve of international cricket. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by rett

[Vijy]

I too believe that Duleep Trophy should be turned in to the premier domestic tournament. However, to do that there has to be some changes in how the playing 11 is selected. The last thing that you want is all those who are near the retirement age or those who have no hopes of getting back in to the international cricket occupying all the slots. As this would beat the purpose of finding talent that is quickly able to adjust to the rigors of international cricket. 

For example, in the playing 11, there should be a couple of slots of under 21 players. And a provision for only a slot for players above the age of 32. May be a slot for an international player can be made available too. 

Coming back to ready made talent. I have not seen or read about too many ready made talent in the history of Indian cricket. Those who immediately come to the mind include Vijay Merchant, Vinoo Mankad, CK Naidu, Md Nissar, Amar Singh, probably Vijay Hazare, Chandra, Bedi, Parsanna, Gavaskar, Azhar, Sidhu, Amre (looked good on his debut in SA) and Tendulkar. So most of the players are from the early period who would naturally have to be very good at cricket to take up the profession at that time. Most of the other players have had to adjust to the learning curve of international cricket. 

 

Tendulkar was far from the finished product as a 16 year old. Had lots of potential, but he evolved a great deal and adjusted to the rigours of international cricket. It's typically people who have gone through the domestic grind for a fair no. of seasons that come out fully equipped. CK Nayudu was too old by the time international cricket happened - he was already on the wane, and besides, he  was never up to international calibre ( as seen from his ordinary record).

[zen]

 double post

Edited January 24, 2016 by rett

[zen]

Tendulkar was far from the finished product as a 16 year old. Had lots of potential, but he evolved a great deal and adjusted to the rigours of international cricket. It's typically people who have gone through the domestic grind for a fair no. of seasons that come out fully equipped. CK Nayudu was too old by the time international cricket happened - he was already on the wane, and besides, he  was never up to international calibre ( as seen from his ordinary record).

One never stops learning. However, Tendulkar at 16 looked as one of the better batsmen in the playing 11. He got some fighting knocks in the test series and who can forget that 4 sixes of Qadir

CK Naidu was said to be great in his prime. I am sure he would have had a great record if he had played international cricket in his prime 

 

[Trichromatic]

Our FC system has always produced good batsmen and rarely produced good bowlers. 

Everyone connected to cricket and even interested in cricket know this fact.

i actually feel that our current lot of batsmen are  better at playing pace and bounce than their predecessors barring  Sunil Gavaskar. Their problem is playing swing and that is because they don't get to play county cricket any more...not because of our domestic cricket.

We are producing lots of power hitters too...but somehow they are not being taken .

We have produced just 3 pacers with under 30 test average and no one with under 25 test average...so our problem with pacers is nothing new. We are actually producing more fast bowlers these days...and hopefully we will find a good fast bowler out of them soon.

Our current spinners are also as good or as bad as they used to be in the past. Very good in the sub-continent and average outside.

 

Two biggest steps needed for improvement of our domestic cricket are --

• Increasing the number of zonal matches and competitions being played ...so that the standard of opposition improves a lot. I don't think this will happen practically because individual state level officials wield a lot of power and don't like this concept as this will make them less relevant.
• Make sporting pitches with decent bounce in some matches, instead of mandatory green tops with lowish bounce that we find in most domestic games. These continuous green tops are giving rise to dibbly-dobbly  swing bowlers as big wicket takers in Ranji Trophy instead of bowlers who bowl with effort.  This step is possible practically.

Giving every prospective batsman at least one season of county cricket stint should be thought of too ...but won't really happen in practice due to the IPL.

 

I agree that we are producing better batsmen. I don't think we are producing better hitters though. Most of our batsmen are accumulators in both tests and odis. Vijay has adapted well to become a defensive batsmen. But except him, all our batsmen are busy sort of players who look for runs on each ball. In tests you need batsmen who can defend well. In ODIs these batsmen are good for middle overs, but the way game has changed in last few years, this is clearly not working. Teams have found hitters who can innovate and clear grounds, but we stuck in middle in both formats. Our batsmen have to evolve quickly. While we can manage easily in ODIs and tests, our T20 batting is almost non-existent because of this. 

 

Our pace attack is worse than it was 7-8 years back. During 90s, we had one good bowler Srinath who could easily find place for all test matches. Agarkar was not a regular, but certainly our one of best in ODIs. After him we had performances from all types of bowlers. RP Singh did well on some of tours. Irfan Pathan did well for 2-3 years. Nehra, Balaji, Sreesanth had their days and during this Zak evolved as our main bowler. There werent many regulars and standout bowlers, but because of these performances we won and became no 1 team.

While it may seem that we are producing faster bowlers now, they havent been performing for last 5-6 years. Ishant produces some match winning performances, but except him other bowlers just havent managed to perform once in blue moon. It feels like quality of pacers have declined recently for Indian team.

[Vijy]

I agree that we are producing better batsmen. I don't think we are producing better hitters though. Most of our batsmen are accumulators in both tests and odis. Vijay has adapted well to become a defensive batsmen. But except him, all our batsmen are busy sort of players who look for runs on each ball. In tests you need batsmen who can defend well. In ODIs these batsmen are good for middle overs, but the way game has changed in last few years, this is clearly not working. Teams have found hitters who can innovate and clear grounds, but we stuck in middle in both formats. Our batsmen have to evolve quickly. While we can manage easily in ODIs and tests, our T20 batting is almost non-existent because of this. 

 

Our pace attack is worse than it was 7-8 years back. During 90s, we had one good bowler Srinath who could easily find place for all test matches. Agarkar was not a regular, but certainly our one of best in ODIs. After him we had performances from all types of bowlers. RP Singh did well on some of tours. Irfan Pathan did well for 2-3 years. Nehra, Balaji, Sreesanth had their days and during this Zak evolved as our main bowler. There werent many regulars and standout bowlers, but because of these performances we won and became no 1 team.

While it may seem that we are producing faster bowlers now, they havent been performing for last 5-6 years. Ishant produces some match winning performances, but except him other bowlers just havent managed to perform once in blue moon. It feels like quality of pacers have declined recently for Indian team.

To the above list, you can also add Munaf too, who did well in the beginning and then faded away.

 

I agree with our batting approach.

[Mosher]

Good to see some quality discussions happening on ICF 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Mosher

[Trichromatic]

To the above list, you can also add Munaf too, who did well in the beginning and then faded away.

 

I agree with our batting approach.

You mean ODIs? Didnt see him doing anything in tests except for that first inning.

 

RP Singh, Sreesanth Irfan Pathan Zaheer Khan, Nehra. This lot of bowler seems to be better than current lot.

[express bowling]

I agree that we are producing better batsmen. I don't think we are producing better hitters though. Most of our batsmen are accumulators in both tests and odis. Vijay has adapted well to become a defensive batsmen. But except him, all our batsmen are busy sort of players who look for runs on each ball. In tests you need batsmen who can defend well. In ODIs these batsmen are good for middle overs, but the way game has changed in last few years, this is clearly not working. Teams have found hitters who can innovate and clear grounds, but we stuck in middle in both formats. Our batsmen have to evolve quickly. While we can manage easily in ODIs and tests, our T20 batting is almost non-existent because of this. 

 

Our pace attack is worse than it was 7-8 years back. During 90s, we had one good bowler Srinath who could easily find place for all test matches. Agarkar was not a regular, but certainly our one of best in ODIs. After him we had performances from all types of bowlers. RP Singh did well on some of tours. Irfan Pathan did well for 2-3 years. Nehra, Balaji, Sreesanth had their days and during this Zak evolved as our main bowler. There werent many regulars and standout bowlers, but because of these performances we won and became no 1 team.

While it may seem that we are producing faster bowlers now, they havent been performing for last 5-6 years. Ishant produces some match winning performances, but except him other bowlers just havent managed to perform once in blue moon. It feels like quality of pacers have declined recently for Indian team.

Rohit Sharma, Virat Kohli, Shikhar Dhawan, Dhoni, Raina are all very good hitters and not accumulators. We did not have these many hitters in the '80s or '90s or 2000s. What we lack is lower order big hitters now because Dhoni has aged and Raina lost his form. There are quite a few available in domestic cricket but we are not taking them in ODIs...Pandya, Hooda, Negi etc. Also,  Iyer is a proper middle order hitter.

Our pace attack has worsened not because of less ready-made talent available but because, after Ganguly's captaincy tenure, fast bowling talent has not been nurtured properly. We always lacked a pace bowling culture in our country and it was either supportive captains or highly motivated individuals like Kapil and Srinath, which occasionally produced quality pacers. Like Agarkar we still have a very good ODI pacer in Shami now...he is infact better. We have seen occasional good performances from Ishant, Shami, Yadav, Bhuvi nowadays like we did from RP, Sreesanth, Balaji etc. They just look better because they are not playing now and our disgust with them have diminished.

P.S - Kapil Dev was a very good bowler from the start , not because of our domestic cricket but despite our domestic cricket

Edited January 24, 2016 by express bowling

[Trichromatic]

Rohit Sharma, Virat Kohli, Shikhar Dhawan, Dhoni, Raina are all very good hitters and not accumulators. We did not have these many hitters in the '80s or '90s or 2000s. What we lack is lower order big hitters now because Dhoni has aged and Raina lost his form. There are quite a few available in domestic cricket but we are not taking them in ODIs...Pandya, Hooda, Negi etc. Also,  Iyer is a proper middle order hitter.

Our pace attack has worsened not because of less ready-made talent available but because, after Ganguly's captaincy tenure, fast bowling talent has not been nurtured properly. We always lacked a pace bowling culture in our country and it was either supportive captains or highly motivated individuals like Kapil and Srinath, which occasionally produced quality pacers. Like Agarkar we still have a very good ODI pacer in Shami now...he is infact better. We have seen occasional good performances from Ishant, Shami, Yadav, Bhuvi nowadays like we did from RP, Sreesanth, Balaji etc. They just look better because they are not playing now and our disgust with them have diminished.

P.S - Kapil Dev was a very good bowler from the start , not because of our domestic cricket but despite our domestic cricket

It's not that disgust has diminished. They produced match winning performances in the span of 5-6 years, which current lot has failed to do.

You can associate RP with Eng series win, Sree with SA, Pathan with Pakistan, Nehra with 2003 WC and so on. Only memorable performances from this set of bowlers is by Ishant and Shami against WI at home and WC

Edited January 24, 2016 by Vibhash

[Laaloo]

You would think with all the new players that Dhoni has neglected over the years and not even play them in dead rubbers, they would be ready by now.

[express bowling]

It's not that disgust has diminished. They produced match winning performances in the span of 5-6 years, which current lot has failed to do.

You can associate RP with Eng series win, Sree with SA, Pathan with Pakistan, Nehra with 2003 WC and so on. Only memorable performances from this set of bowlers is by Ishant and Shami against WI at home and WC

Along with Shami's Wi test series and Ishant's Wi test series that you mentioned....

I would add Umesh and Shami's performances in this WC where they were the 3rd and 4th highest wicket takers among all teams with very low averages.

Ishant's performances in the last Sri Lanka test series and Lord's test also come to mind. 

Bhuvi's performance in a ODi series against Pakistan was also memorable.

Shami's performance in an Aussie ODi series was very good too.

I am sure there are others

[moniker]

Batting-wise, yes. As for the bowling, do you need to be reminded of that 450 chase in SA, the McCullum-Watling partnership, and of course the pathetic bowling in Oz?

Oz pitches were flat. Even Johnson was ineffective. I actually felt the rest of the batsmen didn't provide enough support to Kohli. It was a one man batting show.

I would credit Faf and ABCD for that incredible grind. They have done that quite a few times now. It wasn't just that one match against us.

NZ, yes that was pathetic. I'd agree. But the bowlers did well in the first innings and it didn't hurt that much as we didn't go on to lose the match.

[Vijy]

Rohit Sharma, Virat Kohli, Shikhar Dhawan, Dhoni, Raina are all very good hitters and not accumulators. We did not have these many hitters in the '80s or '90s or 2000s. What we lack is lower order big hitters now because Dhoni has aged aand raina lost his form. There are quite a few available in domestic cricket but we are not taking them in ODIs...Pandya, Hooda, Negi etc. Also,  Iyer is a proper middle order hitter.

Our pace attack has worsened not because of less ready-made talent available but because, after Ganguly's captaincy tenure, fast bowling talent has not been nurtured properly. We always lacked a pace bowling culture in our country and it was either supportive captains or highly motivated individuals like Kapil, which occasionally produced quality pacers. Like Agarkar we still have a very good ODI pacer in Shami now...he is infact better. We have seen occasional good performances from Ishant, Shami, yadav, Bhuvi nowadays like we did from RP, Sreesanth, Balaji etc. They just look better because they are not playing now and our disgust with them have diminished.

Amen to that.

[Vijy]

 

Oz pitches were flat. Even Johnson was ineffective. I actually felt the rest of the batsmen didn't provide enough support to Kohli. It was a one man batting show.

 

I would credit Faf and ABCD for that incredible grind. They have done that quite a few times now. It wasn't just that one match against us.

 

NZ, yes that was pathetic. I'd agree. But the bowlers did well in the first innings and it didn't hurt that much as we didn't go on to lose the match.

You are claiming that everything is a one-off or that we did "well". If we did "well", pray, where are all the wins? It's time to stop inventing, or coming up, with reasons.

[moniker]

You are claiming that everything is a one-off or that we did "well". If we did "well", pray, where are all the wins? It's time to stop inventing, or coming up, with reasons.

Oh, "we did well" was relative to how we have performed in overseas tours in the past. I didn't assign high standards to this bunch for away test performances as they were raw after the whole middle order retired. The batting has been better than expected. The likes of Vijay and Rahane have been a revelation.

Our bowling is more of the same, we still struggle to take 20 wickets when we tour, yes, but I don't think it has regressed. Ishant has been doing ok and our spinners are doing good at home as always.

We mostly toured for the past few years. Have some home tests coming along. Hopefully we can get some wins under the belt.

[Vijy]

 

Oh, "we did well" was relative to how we have performed in overseas tours in the past. I didn't assign high standards to this bunch for away test performances as they were raw after the whole middle order retired. The batting has been better than expected. The likes of Vijay and Rahane have been a revelation.

 

Our bowling is more of the same, we still struggle to take 20 wickets when we tour, yes, but I don't think it has regressed. Ishant has been doing ok and our spinners are doing good at home as always.

 

We mostly toured for the past few years. Have some home tests coming along. Hopefully we can get some wins under the belt.

We'll get enough under the belt.

[Silva]

 

Our pace attack is worse than it was 7-8 years back. During 90s, we had one good bowler Srinath who could easily find place for all test matches. Agarkar was not a regular, but certainly our one of best in ODIs. After him we had performances from all types of bowlers. RP Singh did well on some of tours. Irfan Pathan did well for 2-3 years. Nehra, Balaji, Sreesanth had their days and during this Zak evolved as our main bowler. There werent many regulars and standout bowlers, but because of these performances we won and became no 1 team.

While it may seem that we are producing faster bowlers now, they havent been performing for last 5-6 years. Ishant produces some match winning performances, but except him other bowlers just havent managed to perform once in blue moon. It feels like quality of pacers have declined recently for Indian team.

I think this is because around 7-8 years ago BCCI cut of ties with MRF pace academy and banned its bowlers from going their and set up their own bowling academy. Considering the amount of bowling talent this one academy has produced or helped discover you would think that BCCI would do everything in its power to try and create more such academies throughout India rather than get in their way. 

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Silva

[rkt.india]

I think this is because around 7-8 years ago BCCI cut of ties with MRF pace academy and banned its bowlers from going their and set up their own bowling academy. Considering the amount of bowling talent this one academy has produced or helped discover you would think that BCCI would do everything in its power to try and create more such academies throughout India rather than get in their way. 

 

BCCI have tied up with MRF.  Young bowlers have already got a stint under McGrath there.