Ranji Trophy 2016/17

[SUMO]

51 minutes ago, gakgupta said:

too early to bring kuldeep in.....let him spend couple of seasons in domestics

couple of seasons ? He is 22 and has enough experience (19 first class and ipls) 
can be used as surprising element against english batsman in the series, also he will turn the ball away from their lefties so theoretically more effective than mishra

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, Texan said:

The match against NZ was in India FYI.

Those were not really indian conditions. It was a rare grassy pitch, resembling more to Capetown and Wanderers, not typical Eden.

[Laaloo]

5 minutes ago, SUMO said:

couple of seasons ? He is 22 and has enough experience (19 first class and ipls) 
can be used as surprising element against english batsman in the series, also he will turn the ball away from their lefties so theoretically more effective than mishra

Exactly we need to stop worrying about grooming. Look at England they have a 19 year old opener. Look at Zampa from Australia. Debuted at a young age. And Kuldeep would play as the 3rd spinner. So he would be under less pressure. It's time for the selectors to stop selecting stop gap players and start taking some bold risks that may benefit us for years to come.

[SUMO]

3 minutes ago, laaloo said:

Exactly we need to stop worrying about grooming. Look at England they have a 19 year old opener. Look at Zampa from Australia. Debuted at a young age. And Kuldeep would play as the 3rd spinner. So he would be under less pressure. It's time for the selectors to stop selecting stop gap players and start taking some bold risks that may benefit us for years to come.

and our domestic cricket is not that high standard like aus eng, that we will get an ready made cricketer...even if they play for 10 years

[Texan]

19 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Those were not really indian conditions. It was a rare grassy pitch, resembling more to Capetown and Wanderers, not typical Eden.

or Rajkot. Rajkot pitch also had grass and assistance on the first day. It is not the first time Eden pitch had grass. Watch the India Pakistan match in which Srinath took 13 wickets.

[MCcricket]

For any reasonable poster all the answers are there to your question but you seem to be caught in a cycle, and can't look beyond, am done explaining anymore sorry, but that's it from my side, even rkt gave you all valid info 

[Texan]

For any reasonable cricket fan also, just watching our bowlers bowl is sufficient to understand the skills Bhuvi brings to the table. But you are caught in speed gun analysis where only bowlers who bowl over a certain speed limit whet your appetite and anybody below that is crap no matter what skills they bring to the table. 

[Texan]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

In all his test career, apart from MCG and Perth 2012, yadav is yet to play a single test in such helpful conditions and in those two tests, he had picked up 12 wickets.

Thats a contradiction of your own post in the past when you had called the SSC pitch seamer friendly. 

 

 

[MCcricket]

6 hours ago, Texan said:

For any reasonable cricket fan also, just watching our bowlers bowl is sufficient to understand the skills Bhuvi brings to the table. But you are caught in speed gun analysis where only bowlers who bowl over a certain speed limit whet your appetite and anybody below that is crap no matter what skills they bring to the table. 

See it's easy to be an arm chair critic and not really understand unless u have played a serious level cricket, it's very simple logic our senses and instincts have a point where it is easier to respond n then it suddenly becomes difficult, 130 K or below is very easy for any cricketer who has played first class cricket, so a bowler has to be super skillful to go one step up now if you move from first class level to int cricket that speed is upped by 5 to 10 kph owing to the best of the rest being picked up to represent their country, say ABD and Virat , Hayden who could n can step out to even faster bowlers.

Now a medium pacer who bowls at 130 K to 135 K has to have extra ordinary gift in order to be successful in int cricket, say he is built like Ambrose n gets steep bounce n is super accurate n moves the ball of the seam , even Aus tried several very similar type bowlers to Mgrath n non could match him S Clarke n Hazelwood, BK has skills to move the ball of the seam n it is impressive, but that skill can only be used in certain conditions n only when ball is very new, he has to bowl the channel n hope the batter edges the ball or try LBW.

Now most games are not played on bowler friendly tracks, n his bowling at 132 to 135 coming from his height is innocuous, the only medium pacer who I remember was remotely successful was Bass n that too he was a left armer n knew how to use the angle very well n was very skillful, once again they cannot run through sides or be useful 80% times, so what R we looking at, ideal conditions to bowl at for them to succeed n how often that happens?

I have three generation behind me who have played first class cricket n have played with cricketers who have played for their country, so take it or leave it, is simple , you need a basic speed to be threatening n being able to bowl in all conditions, BK doesn't have it n the thing he doesn't have is basic speed required to be successful at test level

[Texan]

1 hour ago, MCcricket said:

See it's easy to be an arm chair critic and not really understand unless u have played a serious level cricket, it's very simple logic our senses and instincts have a point where it is easier to respond n then it suddenly becomes difficult, 130 K or below is very easy for any cricketer who has played first class cricket, so a bowler has to be super skillful to go one step up now if you move from first class level to int cricket that speed is upped by 5 to 10 kph owing to the best of the rest being picked up to represent their country, say ABD and Virat , Hayden who could n can step out to even faster bowlers.

Now a medium pacer who bowls at 130 K to 135 K has to have extra ordinary gift in order to be successful in int cricket, say he is built like Ambrose n gets steep bounce n is super accurate n moves the ball of the seam , even Aus tried several very similar type bowlers to Mgrath n non could match him S Clarke n Hazelwood, BK has skills to move the ball of the seam n it is impressive, but that skill can only be used in certain conditions n only when ball is very new, he has to bowl the channel n hope the batter edges the ball or try LBW.

Now most games are not played on bowler friendly tracks, n his bowling at 132 to 135 coming from his height is innocuous, the only medium pacer who I remember was remotely successful was Bass n that too he was a left armer n knew how to use the angle very well n was very skillful, once again they cannot run through sides or be useful 80% times, so what R we looking at, ideal conditions to bowl at for them to succeed n how often that happens?

I have three generation behind me who have played first class cricket n have played with cricketers who have played for their country, so take it or leave it, is simple , you need a basic speed to be threatening n being able to bowl in all conditions, BK doesn't have it n the thing he doesn't have is basic speed required to be successful at test level

You are still missing the point and I see it a hopeless charade here. Bowlers who are skillful are able to move the ball ever so slightly even in unhelpful conditions such that batsmen have very little time to adjust their strokes. That is why some of the most successful bowlers in history have been ones who have been able to "move" the ball more than bowl it at express pace. A BK might be able to still move the ball ever so slightly on a pitch offering very little compared to an Aaron, just enough to cause a batsman to make a very late adjustment to their stroke resulting in a false stroke. Also, by testing a batsman time and again with a constant threatening line, a BK would be able to test a batsman's concentration and temperament more than a bowler like Ishant Sharma who will bowl it two yards outside off stump. If only bowling "fast" mattered, then Shaun Tait would have been the most successful bowler of this century. Despite claiming to have "First Class" cricket genes, somehow these cold and hard facts seem to supersede your love for speed gun milestones.

[rkt.india]

12 hours ago, Texan said:

or Rajkot. Rajkot pitch also had grass and assistance on the first day. It is not the first time Eden pitch had grass. Watch the India Pakistan match in which Srinath took 13 wickets.

yes, grass is the key. Rajkot pitch had some grass but not as much as Eden and it did not have the moisture. Also, look at how many catches they dropped. Yadav would have ended with at least 4 wickets in first innings if they had taken their catches, 3 catches of him were dropped.

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, Texan said:

Thats a contradiction of your own post in the past when you had called the SSC pitch seamer friendly. 

 

 

Yes, SSC too, I forgot that. Ishant had 8 wickets in that game. Yadav did bowl poorly in that game.

Edited November 14, 2016 by rkt.india

[express bowling]

In  test matches,  medium-pacers ( those who don't have either sufficient pace or sufficient bounce )  have rarely done well in the last 40 years.

 

Pacers need not be express in terms of pace to succeed.....but  fast-medium pace has generally been the minimum requirement and  those who have bowled at a slightly slower pace have generally made it up by steep bounce.

 

In addition ....all the top pacers  were skilled bowlers too.

 

That means, a combination of minimum required pace, bounce and skill is what most strike bowlers among pacers have possessed  in test matches.

 

Here is a list of pacers who have averaged 30 or less in test matches in the last 40 years after taking 200 test wickets and I don't see even one genuine medium pacer (  that is not having either sufficient pace or sufficient bounce )

 

Almost all are either fast or fast medium and most of the fast-medium ones have been bouncy bowlers.  Pollock is the only medium-fast bowler in that list and even he was tall and bouncy.

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	81	151	17584	7876	376	7/22	11/89	20.94	2.68	46.7	22	4
J Garner (WI)	1977-1987	58	111	13169	5433	259	6/56	9/108	20.97	2.47	50.8	7	0
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	98	179	22103	8501	405	8/45	11/84	20.99	2.30	54.5	22	3
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1976-1990	73	127	19250	8061	384	9/52	15/123	20.99	2.51	50.1	34	8
GD McGrath (AUS)	1993-2007	124	243	29248	12186	563	8/24	10/27	21.64	2.49	51.9	29	3
Imran Khan (PAK)	1976-1992	81	130	17710	7524	343	8/58	14/116	21.93	2.54	51.6	23	6
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2002	72	129	15519	7344	330	8/71	12/139	22.25	2.83	47.0	20	3
DW Steyn (SA)	2004-2016	85	156	17286	9303	417	7/51	11/60	22.30	3.22	41.4	26	5
SM Pollock (SA)	1995-2008	108	202	24353	9733	421	7/87	10/147	23.11	2.39	57.8	16	1
Waqar Younis (PAK)	1989-2003	87	154	16224	8788	373	7/76	13/135	23.56	3.25	43.4	22	5
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2002	104	181	22627	9779	414	7/119	11/110	23.62	2.59	54.6	25	5
DK Lillee (AUS)	1976-1984	44	82	11769	5493	231	7/83	11/123	23.77	2.80	50.9	17	6
RGD Willis (ENG)	1976-1984	72	132	13950	6437	269	8/43	9/92	23.92	2.76	51.8	14	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	132	242	30019	12688	519	7/37	13/55	24.44	2.53	57.8	22	3
JN Gillespie (AUS)	1996-2006	71	137	14234	6770	259	7/37	9/80	26.13	2.85	54.9	8	0
HH Streak (ZIM)	1993-2005	65	102	13559	6079	216	6/73	9/72	28.14	2.69	62.7	7	0
JM Anderson (ENG)	2003-2016	119	223	26366	13096	463	7/43	11/71	28.28	2.98	56.9	21	3
MG Hughes (AUS)	1985-1994	53	97	12285	6017	212	8/87	13/217	28.38	2.93	57.9	7	1
D Gough (ENG)	1994-2003	58	95	11821	6503	229	6/42	9/92	28.39	3.30	51.6	9	0
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1992	102	168	21815	10878	383	8/34	13/106	28.40	2.99	56.9	27	4
MG Johnson (AUS)	2007-2015	73	140	16001	8891	313	8/61	12/127	28.40	3.33	51.1	12	3
CJ McDermott (AUS)	1984-1996	71	124	16586	8332	291	8/97	11/157	28.63	3.01	56.9	14	2
SCJ Broad (ENG)	2007-2016	100	183	20658	10341	361	8/15	11/121	28.64	3.00	57.2	15	2
M Ntini (SA)	1998-2009	101	190	20834	11242	390	7/37	13/132	28.82	3.23	53.4	18	4
M Morkel (SA)	2006-2016	71	132	13640	7098	242	6/23	8/196	29.33	3.12	56.3	6	0
CL Cairns (NZ)	1989-2004	62	104	11698	6410	218	7/27	10/100	29.40	3.28	53.6	13	1
WPUJC Vaas (SL)	1994-2009	111	194	23438	10501	355	7/71	14/191	29.58	2.68	66.0	12	2
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)	1978-1994	131	227	27740	12867	434	9/83	11/146	29.64	2.78	63.9	23	2
AR Caddick (ENG)	1993-2003	62	105	13558	6999	234	7/46	10/215	29.91	3.09	57.9	13	1
PM Siddle (AUS)	2008-2016	62	116	12941	6314	211	6/54	9/104	29.92	2.92	61.3	8	0
J Srinath (INDIA)	1991-2002	67	121	15104	7196	236	8/86	13/132	30.49	2.85	64.0	10	1
MJ Hoggard (ENG)	2000-2008	67	122	13909	7564	248	7/61	12/205	30.50	3.26	56.0	7	1
B Lee (AUS)	1999-2008	76	150	16531	9554	310	5/30	9/171	30.81	3.46	53.3	10	0

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=200;qualval1=wickets;spanmin1=12+Nov+1976;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by express bowling

[MCcricket]

30 minutes ago, express bowling said:

In  test matches,  medium-pacers ( those who don't have either sufficient pace or sufficient bounce )  have rarely done well in the last 40 years.

 

Pacers need not be express in terms of pace to succeed.....but  fast -medium pace has generally been the minimum requirement and  those who have bowled at a slightly slower pace have generally made it up by steep bounce.

 

In addition ....all the top pacers  were skilled bowlers too.

 

That means, a combination of minimum required pace, bounce and skill is what most strike bowlers among pacers have possessed  in test matches.

 

Here is a list of pacers who have averaged 30 or less in test matches in the last 40 years after taking 200 test wickets and I don't see even one genuine medium pacer (  that is not having either sufficient pace or sufficient bounce )

 

Almost all are either fast or fast medium and most of the fast-medium ones have been bouncy bowlers.  Pollock is the only medium-fast bowler in that list and even he was tall and bouncy.

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	81	151	17584	7876	376	7/22	11/89	20.94	2.68	46.7	22	4
J Garner (WI)	1977-1987	58	111	13169	5433	259	6/56	9/108	20.97	2.47	50.8	7	0
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	98	179	22103	8501	405	8/45	11/84	20.99	2.30	54.5	22	3
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1976-1990	73	127	19250	8061	384	9/52	15/123	20.99	2.51	50.1	34	8
GD McGrath (AUS)	1993-2007	124	243	29248	12186	563	8/24	10/27	21.64	2.49	51.9	29	3
Imran Khan (PAK)	1976-1992	81	130	17710	7524	343	8/58	14/116	21.93	2.54	51.6	23	6
AA Donald (SA)	1992-2002	72	129	15519	7344	330	8/71	12/139	22.25	2.83	47.0	20	3
DW Steyn (SA)	2004-2016	85	156	17286	9303	417	7/51	11/60	22.30	3.22	41.4	26	5
SM Pollock (SA)	1995-2008	108	202	24353	9733	421	7/87	10/147	23.11	2.39	57.8	16	1
Waqar Younis (PAK)	1989-2003	87	154	16224	8788	373	7/76	13/135	23.56	3.25	43.4	22	5
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2002	104	181	22627	9779	414	7/119	11/110	23.62	2.59	54.6	25	5
DK Lillee (AUS)	1976-1984	44	82	11769	5493	231	7/83	11/123	23.77	2.80	50.9	17	6
RGD Willis (ENG)	1976-1984	72	132	13950	6437	269	8/43	9/92	23.92	2.76	51.8	14	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	132	242	30019	12688	519	7/37	13/55	24.44	2.53	57.8	22	3
JN Gillespie (AUS)	1996-2006	71	137	14234	6770	259	7/37	9/80	26.13	2.85	54.9	8	0
HH Streak (ZIM)	1993-2005	65	102	13559	6079	216	6/73	9/72	28.14	2.69	62.7	7	0
JM Anderson (ENG)	2003-2016	119	223	26366	13096	463	7/43	11/71	28.28	2.98	56.9	21	3
MG Hughes (AUS)	1985-1994	53	97	12285	6017	212	8/87	13/217	28.38	2.93	57.9	7	1
D Gough (ENG)	1994-2003	58	95	11821	6503	229	6/42	9/92	28.39	3.30	51.6	9	0
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1992	102	168	21815	10878	383	8/34	13/106	28.40	2.99	56.9	27	4
MG Johnson (AUS)	2007-2015	73	140	16001	8891	313	8/61	12/127	28.40	3.33	51.1	12	3
CJ McDermott (AUS)	1984-1996	71	124	16586	8332	291	8/97	11/157	28.63	3.01	56.9	14	2
SCJ Broad (ENG)	2007-2016	100	183	20658	10341	361	8/15	11/121	28.64	3.00	57.2	15	2
M Ntini (SA)	1998-2009	101	190	20834	11242	390	7/37	13/132	28.82	3.23	53.4	18	4
M Morkel (SA)	2006-2016	71	132	13640	7098	242	6/23	8/196	29.33	3.12	56.3	6	0
CL Cairns (NZ)	1989-2004	62	104	11698	6410	218	7/27	10/100	29.40	3.28	53.6	13	1
WPUJC Vaas (SL)	1994-2009	111	194	23438	10501	355	7/71	14/191	29.58	2.68	66.0	12	2
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)	1978-1994	131	227	27740	12867	434	9/83	11/146	29.64	2.78	63.9	23	2
AR Caddick (ENG)	1993-2003	62	105	13558	6999	234	7/46	10/215	29.91	3.09	57.9	13	1
PM Siddle (AUS)	2008-2016	62	116	12941	6314	211	6/54	9/104	29.92	2.92	61.3	8	0
J Srinath (INDIA)	1991-2002	67	121	15104	7196	236	8/86	13/132	30.49	2.85	64.0	10	1
MJ Hoggard (ENG)	2000-2008	67	122	13909	7564	248	7/61	12/205	30.50	3.26	56.0	7	1
B Lee (AUS)	1999-2008	76	150	16531	9554	310	5/30	9/171	30.81	3.46	53.3	10	0

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=200;qualval1=wickets;spanmin1=12+Nov+1976;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

 

I see BK might play as a all rounder , a bowler who can bat, as he has good technique n some batting talent, team management should put him a bit up the order n see how he does, BK might thrive as a allrounder, he is good enough as a bowler n if he adds batting to his trade coz he already has decent skills he will give Virat more options n make a spot for himself in tests

K Rahul

Vijay

Pujara

Virat

Rahane

Ashwin

B K/ K yadav

Saha

Jadeja/Umesh/Ishant/Aaron

Pandya

Shami

Would be a decent test squad for all conditions

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, MCcricket said:

I see BK might play as a all rounder , a bowler who can bat, as he has good technique n some batting talent, team management should put him a bit up the order n see how he does, BK might thrive as a allrounder, he is good enough as a bowler n if he adds batting to his trade coz he already has decent skills he will give Virat more options n make a spot for himself in tests

 

 

Bhuvi has the skills and  needs to up his pace a bit more to become a regular in test matches.  Also needs to improve his ability to bounce a bit more. It won't be that difficult as he has an excellent seam position.

 

He has already increased his pace somewhat and is getting better results as a result in tests in the last 6 months.

 

Regarding his batting...all his three  50+ scores have been in that England series. He has the ability with the bat but has never performed with the bat outside England....... which means a bit more consistency is needed. I get the feel that the team management is not considering him as an all-rounder yet, from his batting position when he plays.

[msplash9]

Ishaan Kishan 136(120)

 

He did score 270 odd in the last match too. But did not get much attention because of Pant's inning. 

Great to see this

Edited November 14, 2016 by msplash9

[express bowling]

15 minutes ago, msplash9 said:

Ishaan Kishan 136(120)

 

He did score 270 odd in the last match too. But did not get much attention because of Pant's inning. 

Great to see this

 

This is excellent news.

 

Both Pant and  Kishan doing well and batting at high SR.

Edited November 14, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

Aaron missing his 3rd match in a row.

 

Nathu Singh not playing for 2 games on the trot.

 

Pradeep Sangwan has not played  after one match.

 

Even Aniket Chaudhury is missing this game.

 

Many of our top pace prospects missing out on solid FC match practice due to either injury or  being left out.

 

Shardul Thakur is in bad form this season after being selected for India.

 

Probable international prospects playing and doing decently are Ankit Rajpoot, Amit Kuilla and M. Sayyed.  Aniket Chaudhury has done decently too before missing  this match.

Edited November 14, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

 A rough list of India probables to look for in each Ranji  team  ( not an exhaustive list )

 

I have provided this list as it would make it easier for people to check out India prospects while checking scores  of  Ranji matches  between specific teams.

 

 

DELHI-  PANT,  SANGWAN,

MUMBAI -  THAKUR,  IYER, HEDWARKAR, ARMAAN,  BISTA, DESHPANDE

U.P -    RAJPOOT,  KULDEEP,  SARFRAZ,

BENGAL - KUILLA,  EASWARAN

RAJASHTAN - NATHU, ANIKET,  PANKAJ,  LOMROR

JHARKHAND -  KISHAN,  AARON,  QUADRI

KARNATAKA - GOPAL, PANDEY, NAIR , MAYANK  

MAHARASHTRA - BAWNE,  SAYYED

BARODA-  HOODA,  KRUNAL

HYDERABAD - CHAMA, SIRAJ

HARYANA -  CHAHAL

KERALA - SAMSON,  WARRIER

TAMIL NADU -  MUKUND

RAILWAYS - KARN

SAURASHTRA - SHELDON JACKSON

Edited November 15, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

A rough list of  young  players who are India probables  ( classification by player-type ) - not an exhaustive list

 

BATSMEN-KEEPERS --  PANT-delhi,   KISHAN-jharkhand,   SAMSON-kerala

 

 

BATSMEN --  PANDEY-karnataka,  MUKUND- tamil nadu, NAIR-karnataka,  HOODA-baroda,   IYER-mumbai,  HEDWARKAR-mumbai,  MAYANK-karnataka,  SARFRAZ-u.p,  ARMAAN-mumbai,  BISTA-mumbai,  BAWNE-maharashtra,  SHELDON JACKSON-saurashtra ( as he is not keeping now )

 

 

PACERS --  NATHU-rajasthan,  AARON-jharkhand,  THAKUR-mumbai,  ANIKET-rajasthan,  RAJPOOT-u.p,  KUILLA-bengal,  SAYYED-maharashtra,  SANGWAN-delhi,  AVESH-m.p,   CHAMA-hyderabad,   WARRIER-kerala, PANKAJ- rajasthan, V.P.SINGH-bengal ( when he gets his pace back to normal ), SIRAJ-hyderabad,  DESHPANDE-mumbai

 

 

ALL-ROUNDERS --  KRUNAL-baroda,   LOMROR-rajasthan

 

 

SPINNERS--  KULDEEP-u.p,   CHAHAL-haryana,  GOPAL-karnataka,   KARN--railways,  QUADRI-jharkhand

Edited November 15, 2016 by express bowling