Curious case of Mohali: selection conundrum?

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, Texan said:

Errr... ummm... of course. Name one please.

Aniket Chaudhuri

[Texan]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

Aniket Chaudhuri

Good for you. I haven't seen him in action, but hopefully he is the right fit.

[rkt.india]

2 minutes ago, Texan said:

Errr... ummm... of course. Name one please.

yes that is the point, even Shami has some way to go before being termed in that bracket, but preference is to play someone with pace if it is a flat track because he may not take a lot of wickets, but pace is something that can make things when nothing is happening. While I would like someone with skills who can swing with decent accuracy even if he is 130 in places like England and we should be looking to find another swing partner for BK when when we go to England likes of Sandeep Sharma. In England, swing is the king. I will have no problem if these two are our  new ball bowlers in England, but not in India until it is a grassy pitch like Kolkata against NZ.

[express bowling]

Bhuvi is now back to bowling at good speeds of 130 k to 140 k.    ( Rkt did point out that he was this pace in early 2013  when he started with a bang and then dropped pace )

 

Improved his ability to get a bit more bounce.

 

Has retained his skills.

 

After combining skills with decent pace....his wicket taking ability has improved in test matches.

 

There was a time from end 2013 to end 2015...when he was bowling 120 k to 130 k in tests and had difficulty picking wickets.

 

Yet...there were many people, including Sanjay Manjrekar...who criticized Bhuvi's attempt to increase his speed.

 

This part is puzzling.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Bhuvi is now back to bowling at good speeds of 130 k to 140 k.    ( Rkt did point out that he was this pace in early 2013  when he started with a bang and then dropped pace )

 

Improved his ability to get a bit more bounce.

 

Has retained his skills.

 

After combining skills with decent pace....his wicket taking ability has improved in test matches.

 

There was a time from end 2013 to end 2015...when he was bowling 120 k to 130 k in tests and had difficulty picking wickets.

 

Yet...there were many people, including Sanjay Manjrekar...who criticized Bhuvi's attempt to increase his speed.

 

This part is puzzling.

 

 

 

 

I am not sure if BK will be able to sustain that pace due to the kind of bowling action he has and that pace not was his actual pace even that time because I never saw him bowl that quick in domestic cricket, more in 128-133 bracket, but a lot of bowlers when selected for India try to put a lot of effort to bowl quick. Ashoke Dinda does the same when he plays for India. BK did the same but that effort is difficult to sustain. See how frequently he is getting injured now despite not being a tearaway fast bowler. His bowling action makes him seriously injury prone.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, radhika said:

Bhuvi is magical when conditions suit him and as good or as bad as Umesh when conditions don't suit him.

If bhuvi is not an all condiition ,all trick bowler...neither is umesh.

If bhuvi can't set pattas on fire...nor is umesh doing the same 

I could understand if Umesh was in the form of his life ...but this nonsense about  Umesh gets the first chance because conditions are not juicy enough for bhuvi should stop.

 

It is surprisiing how the speed worshippers are so satiated by just seeing  fast bowling....oooooh that was 149!!!!ohhhhh that was 150.....and that iitself is enough even if those ohhhhh deliveries don't get wkts..

Do people say...ohhh...look at that ball swing .....maaza aa gaya....that is enough,Swing is the real thing....

Who are the other bowlers being discussed?

Who are the other quicks in direct reckoning?

No one is talking about shamii here.

 

If bhuvi does well...then people go...it is the conditions only....

If he does well,he gets damned if he doesn't he gets damned.

It is like he is being punished for being skilled at something.

 

Poor Umesh gets targetted more because of the blind speed worshippers  than he would otherwise. 

 

 

Why does it have to be pace vs swing  ?

 

Bhuvi has been performing better after he has started bowling 130 k to 140 k and retained his ability to swing the ball.

 

Every Indian fan is happy when he has done well in tests.

 

I have repeatedly pointed out that Bhuvi has the ability to set-up batsmen, he is a thinking cricketer and has shown the ability to improve as a bowler....now these are priceless qualities and if only he can improve his pace a bit and develop the ability to hit-the deck when required, he will become an all condition bowler. By increase in speed, it does not mean 145 k...but more like Zaheer's pace / bounce level.

 

Why are these praises ignored and why do so many people on this forum not want Bhuvi to improve when he himself  has shown the propensity to improve year by year.

 

I have also pointed out numerous times that Umesh Yadav's weaknesses are inability to set up batsmen with regularity, straying down the leg side in certain spells and not having a consistent bouncer.  This aspect is also ignored.

 

The ideal way to analyze every player is....point out his strengths and weaknesses and .....hope that he improves his weaknesses to become a complete player. It does not mean putting down a player who is trying hard.

 

If  Bhuvi plays in Mohali...I  hope he does well as it will only help OUR Indian team win.

Edited November 23, 2016 by express bowling

[Cricketics]

11 hours ago, Samcric said:

Bhuvi is the best Indian seamer in terms of average by far. Has taken 41 wickets at 28 runs/wicket compared to career averages of 34 and 38 for Shami and Umesh respectively. In fact he is the only Indian seamer to be averaging below 30 in the last 20 years or so which includes bowlers like Srinath (Avg 31), Zaheer (Avg: 33) etc. Provides far more control than Umesh and keeps up the pressure. Umesh provides at least 1-2 'hit me' balls every over. Becomes very difficult for a captain to set fields and control the game. I also feel Bhuvi is far ahead of Umesh in terms of thinking about plans to get batsmen out, setting a batsman up and understanding a batsman's weakness and consistently bowl at those areas. To me, his use of the short ball as a surprise element has been very impressive. Umesh, sometimes just runs in and tries to bowl fast and either ends up at the pads or way outside the off. Also, his reverse swing has been tackled rather well by English batsmen and he can't swing it both ways with a new ball. I think Bhuvi needs to be given a fair chance to prove his worth as the 2nd Seamer on less helpful pitches. You can't really ask for more than what he has done with his limited chances in 2016. Umesh has bowled well in the 2nd test but 1 wicket in a test is not good enough. Especially when Broad and Anderson got a lot more help from the wicket and looked genuinely more threatening. 

You echo my sentiments.  Brilliant post. I would like to see Kohli support BK more and I am sure he will. I still have faith that he will go on to be one of India's finest. 

 

Umesh, Ishant are not in BK's league. Yes, it is still early and BK does not have great numbers to show for him to seperate himself from other Indian bowlers, but he will soon. 

[Malcolm Merlyn]

@radhika your support is affecetd by Bhuvi's kajrari aankhein.

[Malcolm Merlyn]

Bhuvi cant reverse swing and Umesh can bowl at 90MPH. Remember how english commies were saying that Indian fast bowlers are far more effective with the old bal because they are 10ks faster?

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

I am not sure if BK will be able to sustain that pace due to the kind of bowling action he has and that pace not was his actual pace even that time because I never saw him bowl that quick in domestic cricket, more in 128-133 bracket, but a lot of bowlers when selected for India try to put a lot of effort to bowl quick. Ashoke Dinda does the same when he plays for India. BK did the same but that effort is difficult to sustain. See how frequently he is getting injured now despite not being a tearaway fast bowler. His bowling action makes him seriously injury prone.

Has Bhuvi injured himself a many times  ?    My impression is he has incurred more minor strains in the last one year.

 

In domestic cricket, most pacers seem to clock way lower speed .  Even Shami was bowling 127 k  to 137 k when I saw him first but started bowling 135 k to 145 k in internationals that year itself..  Something to do with  the domestic speed-guns perhaps.

 

If a pacer wants to succeed in India...a minimum bit of pace is required.

 

Those people here fighting on here  have never played on Indian pattas and don't know how difficult it is for a seamer, no matter how skilled , to pick even a single wicket.  Bowlers feel like crying.    ( Nowadays, the Ranji matches are played mostly on green-tops and seamers are having it easy...but that is not the case in test matches  )

 

Srinath said at the time of retirement that he was doing so because he was feeling that in the last one year,  he did not any more have the speed that was required for the slow Indian tracks .  He felt that he was still ok for outside Asia tests.

 

 

[Mosher]

47 minutes ago, Texan said:

Not saying you but there are speed gun analysts here who measure every ball's effectiveness solely on how much it clocks on the speed gun and not how effective that ball was. 

Then why did you post that as a reply to me and how does that rest your argument?

Look man, I am a fan of fast bowling in general and in specific of Indian fast bowlers. We have been at the receiving end of quick bowlers since the 80's and 90's. Now we have fast bowlers(Umesh,Shami, Ishant,Aaron) who can match or outdo opposition bowlers in pace and push them back.  So few of us do get excited and quote speeds of the bowlers. Pace is a important skill to have for a fast bowler not every Tom, Dick and Harry can bowl quick. It takes special talent and effort to bowl quick. But that does not mean other skills like swing, accuracy, bounce, seam, reverse swing, cutters, yorkers are not important. Just because someone has pace they will not be successful in test cricket and just because someone swings the ball at medium pace will not be successful either. Like Rkt made the point they are not mutually exclusive skills. We need to look for bowlers who can bowl in all conditions. So far we only have Shami who comes close to this. Umesh is not the best bowler we have and neither is BK. But IMO Shami, Umesh, Bk and Ishant are a good team of Indian fast bowlers who can help us win the elusive overseas test series(Aus, SA, England and NZ).

[Vijy]

16 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Has Bhuvi injured himself a many times  ?    My impression is he has incurred more minor strains in the last one year.

 

In domestic cricket, most pacers seem to clock way lower speed .  Even Shami was bowling 127 k  to 137 k when I saw him first but started bowling 135 k to 145 k in internationals that year itself..  Something to do with  the domestic speed-guns perhaps.

 

If a pacer wants to succeed in India...a minimum bit of pace is required.

 

Those people here fighting on here  have never played on Indian pattas and don't know how difficult it is for a seamer, no matter how skilled , to pick even a single wicket.  Bowlers feel like crying.    ( Nowadays, the Ranji matches are played mostly on green-tops and seamers are having it easy...but that is not the case in test matches  )

 

Srinath said at the time of retirement that he was doing so because he was feeling that in the last one year,  he did not any more have the speed that was required for the slow Indian tracks .  He felt that he was still ok for outside Asia tests.

 

 

Certainly BK merits selection, even on dead pitches, if he can keep up 135 kmph (not necessarily 140) consistently. He is a smart bowler, decent field, and a useful lower order bat. Besides, his skills are complementary to Shami to an extent (and Yadav).

[Mosher]

24 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Why does it have to be pace vs swing  ?

 

Bhuvi has been performing better after he has started bowling 130 k to 140 k and retained his ability to swing the ball.

 

Every Indian fan is happy when he has done well in tests.

 

I have repeatedly pointed out that Bhuvi has the ability to set-up batsmen, he is a thinking cricketer and has shown the ability to improve as a bowler....now these are priceless qualities and if only he can improve his pace a bit and develop the ability to hit-the deck when required, he will become an all condition bowler. By increase in speed, it does not mean 145 k...but more like Zaheer's pace / bounce level.

 

Why are these praises ignored and why do so many people on this forum not want Bhuvi to improve when he himself  has shown the propensity to improve year by year.

 

I have also pointed out numerous times that Umesh Yadav's weaknesses are inability to set up batsmen with regularity, straying down the leg side in certain spells and not having a consistent bouncer.  This aspect is also ignored.

 

The ideal way to analyze every player is....point out his strengths and weaknesses and .....hope that he improves his weaknesses to become a complete player. It does not mean putting down a player who is trying hard.

 

If  Bhuvi plays in Mohali...I  hope he does well as it will only help OUR Indian team win.

Bro as usual a very good balanced post from you. But most "fans" here show up only when a player they don't like doesn't perform and go missing when those players do perform well. Then they start whining when players they like get called out for poor performance. Its a pattern that I have seen here in ICF many times and don't think it will stop anytime soon. Fans can be critical all they want but need to put their biases aside while doing so. Balanced posts are very rare.

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, Mosher said:

Then why did you post that as a reply to me and how does that rest your argument?

Look man, I am a fan of fast bowling in general and in specific of Indian fast bowlers. We have been at the receiving end of quick bowlers since the 80's and 90's. Now we have fast bowlers(Umesh,Shami, Ishant,Aaron) who can match or outdo opposition bowlers in pace and push them back.  So few of us do get excited and quote speeds of the bowlers. Pace is a important skill to have for a fast bowler not every Tom, Dick and Harry can bowl quick. It takes special talent and effort to bowl quick. But that does not mean other skills like swing, accuracy, bounce, seam, reverse swing, cutters, yorkers are not important. Just because someone has pace they will not be successful in test cricket and just because someone swings the ball at medium pace will not be successful either. Like Rkt made the point they are not mutually exclusive skills. We need to look for bowlers who can bowl in all conditions. So far we only have Shami who comes close to this. Umesh is not the best bowler we have and neither is BK. But IMO Shami, Umesh, Bk and Ishant are a good team of Indian fast bowlers who can help us win the elusive overseas test series(Aus, SA, England and NZ).

I would like to add that ...speeds are discussed because they are shown ball by ball on TV.  Even foreign ex-players and  commentators from Australia, England and South Africa do it all the time.

 

In England...the degree of swing and revs on the ball by spinners were shown in a couple of series too.....in such a case, degree of swing and revs on the ball were also discussed.

 

It is far more easy to state a quantified parameter than a vague parameter in a discussion. Does not mean that they are not considered important.  

 

People continuously state blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol levels because those are quantifiable  but do not talk as much  about lungs, stomach etc.....does not mean those organs are ignored.

Edited November 23, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

11 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Certainly BK merits selection, even on dead pitches, if he can keep up 135 kmph (not necessarily 140) consistently. He is a smart bowler, decent field, and a useful lower order bat. Besides, his skills are complementary to Shami to an extent (and Yadav).

As  Mosher said,  Bhuvi needs to be given a chance in quite a few test matches on  the trot  on  pattas and seen how he does.

 

If he does well....whatever his pace...it will benefit us and we are happy.

 

If not then we can always go back to Umesh on pattas.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

As  Mosher said,  Bhuvi needs to be given a chance in quite a few test matches on  the trot  on  pattas and seen how he does.

 

If he does well....whatever his pace...it will benefit us and we are happy.

 

If not then we can always go back to Umesh on pattas.

Yep, even when Ummi did well, I never was convinced about his long-term ability. Let's see what BK has to offer - his FC record is quite good, and he bowled on these same pattas.

[rkt.india]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

As  Mosher said,  Bhuvi needs to be given a chance in quite a few test matches on  the trot  on  pattas and seen how he does.

 

If he does well....whatever his pace...it will benefit us and we are happy.

 

If not then we can always go back to Umesh on pattas.

agree. BK should play rest of the home tests against England and Aus. It will give everyone the right idea.

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Yep, even when Ummi did well, I never was convinced about his long-term ability. Let's see what BK has to offer - his FC record is quite good, and he bowled on these same pattas.

Not really, if you watched domestic cricket. Some wickets in UP does favor swing bowling in winters.

[Vijy]

8 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Not really, if you watched domestic cricket. Some wickets in UP does favor swing bowling in winters.

It's not Lahli though (where Rishi Dhawan reaped many wkts). However, I also should have added that FC average doesn't mean much of course - look at S. Aravind, V. Kumar, and J. Sharma (also Mohit Sharma) - they all average around 21-23, but they are all much short of int'l class.

[rkt.india]

7 minutes ago, Vijy said:

It's not Lahli though (where Rishi Dhawan reaped many wkts). However, I also should have added that FC average doesn't mean much of course - look at S. Aravind, V. Kumar, and J. Sharma (also Mohit Sharma) - they all average around 21-23, but they are all much short of int'l class.

Rishi Dhawan doesnt play at Lahli. He plays for Himachal and they play at Dharmshala.