Hey England, guess what ? Umesh-Shami Out played your seamers

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, Vilander said:

yeah yeah Um and Shami are shorter so they skidd on...etc but they do have bouncers and effective ones like how Moeen bhai found out...so its a lot of BS from the English..basically, someone around them can happily remind them.

Even bouncers can be skiddy...as opposed to the steeper bouncers which can be made to rise from closer to good length and can be loopy if the release speed is low.

[Vilander]

44 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Skiddy nature of bowlers has to do with the behaviour of the ball after pitching and the trajectory of the ball due to the height and release point of the  pacer.  It is a bowling type and not a derogatory term.  The ball has to travel a shorter distance due to the low release point and hence the batsmen have less time to play it, even if the release speed is same.

 

Some of the greatest quicks in history are skiddy...like Steyn, Marshall, Waqar, Johnson,

 

The other type is bouncy, which is usually found among the tall quicks with high arm action...like Ambrose, Walsh, Broad, Garner.

 

Ishant is not a skiddy pacer and no one calls him that.  Umesh and Shami are skiddy pacers.

 

We see a lot of tall and non-skiddy pacers from England, Australia, SA etc.  and hence they are not called skiddy.

 

Mark Wood, the quickest English seamer, is a skiddy bowler and Hussain was pointing out that he would have been more effective in India as he was a skiddy quick like Shami and Umesh.

But would they call Steyn/Marshall/Johnson as skiddy as many times as say  Shami or  Umesh. There is a degree of subversion in it. but ok so Skiddy is totally not 'not really pacy but skiddy' as you are saying, i can may be live with that.  My problem with this word has been that , its often used as a lesser admission of pace as an attribute. Say for instance, if Shami bowls a bouncer, it is not less effective than one bowled from Broad, well may be if a Gayle/KP or some other really tall batamsn was playing but not for 98% of batsmen anyway.

 

 

[Vilander]

1 minute ago, Vilander said:

The ball has to travel a shorter distance due to the low release point and hence the batsmen have less time to play it, even if the release speed is same.

basically the heavy ball more often. Speed at the bat is often more than a taller pacer. 

[Riju23]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

For the first time I am seeing the opposition camp  genuinely appreciative of our opening bowling pair in a test series.  Previously, it was praise for just  Kapil or Srinath or Zaheer.

 

The English commentators could not stop praising Shami and  Umesh.   Talked about their pace, aggression and accuracy...as well as their skiddy nature which gave the batsmen little time to adjust.

It's been a while (and it didn't last long) but we did get some praise for the Zaheer - Ishant combo in 2008-09. As I recall, the pair bowled really well at home vs England & Australia and then on tour in NZ. We won all three series, and I believe Zaheer was MOS against England and Ishant was MOS against the Aussies. 

 

A little sad how things turned out afterwards, but at that moment (maybe midway or end of the NZ tour) we were lauded for our opening pair. Amazing to say it now, but even the backup fast bowling and depth looked pretty good with Sreesanth, Munaf Patel, and RP Singh all playing well at some point in the recent past (e.g. all three Down Under in the 07-08 tour, RP Singh in England, Munaf in NZ, etc). Somehow all three of those guys (and Ishant) went downhill quickly and at the same time haha

[express bowling]

41 minutes ago, Vilander said:

But would they call Steyn/Marshall/Johnson as skiddy as many times as say  Shami or  Umesh. There is a degree of subversion in it. but ok so Skiddy is totally not 'not really pacy but skiddy' as you are saying, i can may be live with that.  My problem with this word has been that , its often used as a lesser admission of pace as an attribute. Say for instance, if Shami bowls a bouncer, it is not less effective than one bowled from Broad, well may be if a Gayle/KP or some other really tall batamsn was playing but not for 98% of batsmen anyway.

 

 

 

I know what you are trying to say.  It was or is  a trait among the older England, SA and Australian commentators, those who are 60+ or even 70+ now.

 

They used terms like nippy, brisk etc, for Indian fast bowlers like Srinath while even a much slower McGrath or Pollock were called fast.

[express bowling]

34 minutes ago, Riju23 said:

It's been a while (and it didn't last long) but we did get some praise for the Zaheer - Ishant combo in 2008-09. As I recall, the pair bowled really well at home vs England & Australia and then on tour in NZ. We won all three series, and I believe Zaheer was MOS against England and Ishant was MOS against the Aussies. 

 

A little sad how things turned out afterwards, but at that moment (maybe midway or end of the NZ tour) we were lauded for our opening pair. Amazing to say it now, but even the backup fast bowling and depth looked pretty good with Sreesanth, Munaf Patel, and RP Singh all playing well at some point in the recent past (e.g. all three Down Under in the 07-08 tour, RP Singh in England, Munaf in NZ, etc). Somehow all three of those guys (and Ishant) went downhill quickly and at the same time haha

 

One difference between  mid to late '00s and mid '10s is that now we have a fast bowling culture in India and pacers are not fading away but often increasing pace and / or bounce.  There is more back-up talent too.

[Iconoclast]

England played too many trundlrs and all rounders. These guys can get wickets on seaming pitches but for India they needed someone with real pace. They missed Wood and need to find other bowlers who can bowl phasssst.

[MCcricket]

This tour has been one of good progress as a team and as individuals, Ashwin, Jadeja, Jayant have progressed in their bowling and batting, Shami and Umesh have shown fitness, big heart, serious pace n aggressive bowling, Umesh has improved quite a bit on short balls and accuracy, Ishant has a bit but can do better.

Shami only is rested with a sore knee not an injury so don't think it's anything serious, we need to build on this attack and get in two more potential good bowlers n not Unadkunt n Arvind n Dhawal but someone like , Aniket, Ankit, Nathu Sangwan as well as with a pool of bowlers we can field 3 at any time even after injuries and give rest accordingly as well also BK can be a third of 4 bowler away in seaming conditions but can never be a strike Bowler or 2 bowler owing to his limitations.

[New guy]

1 hour ago, MCcricket said:

also BK can be a third of 4 bowler away in seaming conditions but can never be a strike Bowler or 2 bowler owing to his limitations.

Another person spouting absolute garbage because - speed guns. Every stat proves you wrong and BK easily outbowls Umesh even in home condition. But please keep repeating this ignorant LIE every time because it will prove to be true one day...

 

he takes 5-fer for fun but can never be a strike bowler you know? He averages 28 but can never be a strike bowler. He won us matches in England, WI at home with 5-fers but can never be a stike bowler

 

Internet allows every ignorant person to spout his ignorance

Edited December 21, 2016 by New guy

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, sandeep said:

21-6-42-2

 

10-2-17-1

 

 

Very quietly, Ishant stacked together 2 innings of decent bowling stats.  Unfortunately I was away and did not get to watch much of this game.  But the numbers look extremely good, particularly in a high scoring game on a flat track.  

 

I still stick by my words, that Ishant is a wonderful 3rd seamer to have away from home.  With a fit Shami, it will always boil down to a competition between Bhuvi and Umesh for that other seamer spot, unless we play 4 quicks - which I believe we shouldn't.  

 

Really unfortunate that we have to wait such a long time before this team tests itself in Oz/Eng/SA.    

 

We should play four seamers overseas that is where we lack when we tour. One seamer should be able to bat.

[rkt.india]

1 minute ago, New guy said:

Another person spouting absolute garbage becaue - speed guns. Every stat proves you wrong and BK easily outbowls Umesh even in home condition. But please keep repeating this ignorant LIE every timne because it will prove to be true one day...

Exclude Kolkata test and check BKs stats at home.

Edited December 21, 2016 by rkt.india

[rkt.india]

Just now, rkt.india said:

 

 

[New guy]

I love how OP is clubbing Umesh with Shami. Yeah the true stats

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=11351;type=series

 

Umesh averages worse than every single English seam bowler apart from Woakes. But hey, he bowled better, because speed guns...

 

Shami is on an entirely different level 

[rkt.india]

6 hours ago, G_B_ said:

 

To be honest i thought Ishant was more effective than Umesh

 

The problem with Ishant is he needs to be challenged. So long as you rotate these pacers, it will bring the best out of them

If you actually watched, you will know Ishant was mostly rubbish.

[New guy]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Exclude Kolkata test and check BKs stats at home.

Excluse every one of Umesh 5-fer and check his stats. Umesh averages 58 this series, what a success!!!! 

 

LMAo this garbage logic was often used by Pakistani fans to put Sachin down, the matches in which Sachin didnt score 50 or 100, he averages only 30!!!

Edited December 21, 2016 by New guy

[New guy]

11 hours ago, G_B_ said:

I worry about shami

 

dont think he is going to last for long

Don't say that, he is the one match winning seamer we have currently

[New guy]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

If you actually watched, you will know Ishant was mostly rubbish.

Looking like a million dollars with averaging 58 doesn't help the team. Ishant averaged 19 this match. There is only so many times you can make excuses for Yadav, you kno

[Mosher]

55 minutes ago, New guy said:

I love how OP is clubbing Umesh with Shami. Yeah the true stats

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=11351;type=series

 

Umesh averages worse than every single English seam bowler apart from Woakes. But hey, he bowled better, because speed guns...

 

Shami is on an entirely different level 

Its not always about the stats. Do you think Nasser and Botham who were praising Umesh do not know anything about fast bowling? Nasser said exactly this "Yadav has bowled really well through out the series but the stats won't show that". When you judge a bowler you have to see how he has bowled in the match and not just look at the stats. Has he troubled the batsman and created chances? Yes, he has done that all through the series.

[express bowling]

9 hours ago, New guy said:

Looking like a million dollars with averaging 58 doesn't help the team. 

I think you will agree that Kohli's priority in test matches is to take 20 wickets.... his will to win tests surpasses any captain we have had so far.  As a result, he is really supportive of the bowlers whom he thinks can win it for him either now or in the future.

 

In such a scenario, do you think  that he would have given this much support to Umesh if he did not think that his investment would not bear fruit in the near future ?   

 

Umesh was an inaccurate bowler before the WI series 5 months ago.  We have seen 2 distinct improvements in him in this period..1)  Improvement in accuracy   2) Improvement in the quality of his bouncers.  Well...these were the 2 things which were keeping him from doing well in the past.

 

I get the feeling that Kohli / Kumble want to mould the talent that is there to meet their needs and objectives ( like making Ashwin and Jaddu into all-rounders ). We at last have a proactive captain-coach duo who want to build a team and we need to keep our trust in them.

 

Umesh  is a late bloomer, very late one might say...but give him atleast one more year to see how he does in that period, because a proactive captain-coach duo has faith in him.  Once a quick bowler who can swing the ball starts to bowl accurately and develops a good bouncer then it maybe only a matter of time before he starts picking regular wickets.  Very often poor stats by Umesh in a series were reflective of his poor bowling..... but not this time.   He could have had quite a few more wickets if the rub of the green went his way.

 

Kohli-Kumble want 3 genuine fast bowlers to lead our bowling and want to convert them into wicket taking bowlers by working on their weak aspects.  We should be supportive of this rare endeavour from an Indian team management.

Edited December 21, 2016 by express bowling

[CG]

Umesh had about 6 regulation Catches dropped Otherwise he would easily have finished 15 wickets with a 5 wicket haul which would have lifted his confidence.