Muloghonto Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, surajmal said: No, its just deductive reasoning. Something, a religious nutter would find alien. Calling an atheist a religious nutter is pretty rich. Heres a hint for you- you need to believe in a religion/God to be a religious anything. Quote So we know where you stand... wrong side of history. Correction- empiricial side. The side thats not related to hinduvta nonsense. Quote So you got nothing. Says the guy who doesnt even know what Sangam literature is! Quote Say it with me... Evangelism. Rather have evangelicals bringing home info of new lands than chaddis sitting under banyan tree shivering in fright of the sins incurred in leaving Jambhudwipa. Quote I gave you genetic study that, perhaps, leads one to think to question the prevailing sentiments about "caste system". You gave the usual commie chewtiyapa. LOL at yourself. I don't think you realize what the study says. Saying there is no genetic basis to caste, isn't the same as saying there is no caste. Quote Write a letter to you "academia" raising these concerns. So what about you ? you form opinions based on translations or are you fluent in Ardhamagadhi, Pali and Sanskrit ? You don't need to answer that- we all know the level of brainwashing you have experienced via the RSS/VHP garbage peddlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 15 minutes ago, Texan said: You can have ferries take you to the island from different points. I am not really sure where they are planning this, but hopefully they have taken into account accessibility from different points. The tourists I was talking about are folks already residing in Mumbai (not new people) and those who would visit Mumbai anyways (not specifically to see the statue). Those two sets of audiences are not going to cause an increase in traffic. Besides, traffic is a problem in every major city in India. It does not mean that we stop building landmarks. Then it is waste of money. Just look at the infrastructure that supports Eiffel tower- if you cant attract foreign tourists, then there is no net gain to the economy. Otherwise its just Indians spending Indian money over yet another Indian project. sandeep 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surajmal Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Quote Calling an atheist a religious nutter is pretty rich. Heres a hint for you- you need to believe in a religion/God to be a religious anything. A kulin brahmin , a buddhist, an atheist..... a troll. Quote Correction- empiricial side. The side thats not related to hinduvta nonsense. Check the dictionary again. Empirical doesnt mean methane. Quote Says the guy who doesnt even know what Sangam literature is! Says the guy who doesnt even know the alphabet of the language but passes expert comments nonetheless. Quote Rather have evangelicals bringing home info of new lands than chaddis sitting under banyan tree shivering in fright of the sins incurred in leaving Jambhudwipa. What awesome knowledge they brought. Dropped down to give a blowjob as soon as the first qazi appeared. Quote I don't think you realize what the study says. Saying there is no genetic basis to caste, isn't the same as saying there is no caste. Clearly reading isn't a strong suite. It says "caste system" hardened 1500 yrs i.e. endogamy. Which means, prior to that, people were free to move across varnas. Quote So what about you ? you form opinions based on translations or are you fluent in Ardhamagadhi, Pali and Sanskrit ? You don't need to answer that- we all know the level of brainwashing you have experienced via the RSS/VHP garbage peddlers. I am just going wait for more genetic and archaelogical research. Indian History is a poisoned well thanks to your commie brethren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 47 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Then it is waste of money. Just look at the infrastructure that supports Eiffel tower- if you cant attract foreign tourists, then there is no net gain to the economy. Otherwise its just Indians spending Indian money over yet another Indian project. It is not. A vast majority of our tourism industry caters to domestic tourists. An Indian spending his rupees and giving it to the Government instead of giving it to another private party or keeping it in his bank account is revenue for the Government. We have a very large domestic tourism audience that we should cater to and this audience is growing at an even faster pace than foreign tourists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, surajmal said: A kulin brahmin , a buddhist, an atheist..... a troll. never said i was a buddhist. I said it makes more sense than Hinduism. Just like Hinduism makes more sense than Islam/Christianity.When you are an atheist, you can evaluate religions a lot more objectively. Kulin brahmin is lineage. atheist is knowing better than to believe in your Krishna/Vishnu/Shiva BS Quote Check the dictionary again. Empirical doesnt mean methane. Somethings i never tire reminding Hinduvtas of. Quote Says the guy who doesnt even know the alphabet of the language but passes expert comments nonetheless. Since you don't know all of Sanskrit, Ardhamagadhi & Pali, same applies to you. Quote What awesome knowledge they brought. Dropped down to give a blowjob as soon as the first qazi appeared. They formed almost all the major universities in India that attracted foreign students. As for giving BJs to qazis, the hindus are just as guilty of that. Right in the middle of the Ram janmabhoomi/ Krishna's birthplace on top of that. Hindus shouldn't lecture anyone about being submissive to muslims just because one marauder inconvinienced an empire on its last legs, only to hand it over to the far superior Europeans. Quote Clearly reading isn't a strong suite. It says "caste system" hardened 1500 yrs i.e. endogamy. Which means, prior to that, people were free to move across varnas. That doesnt contradict what i said, which is Buddha + Mahavira tried to root out a system that was flawed but not static yet. Whether it is static or mobile, it is still a flawed system and far more responsible for putting India behind the rest of the world than anything else by fragmenting our meritocracy relative to others. Quote I am just going wait for more genetic and archaelogical research. Indian History is a poisoned well thanks to your commie brethren. So therefore till then you have no opinion or your opinions are formed off of the same translations. FYI, Ashoka being one of the strongest policy-makers *IS* confirmed by archaeology. But as you have proven, you will trash Archaeology for anachronistic, flawed tales, to suit your religion-driven drivel. Oh and if Indian history is poisoned well due to commie brethren, it is currently being poisoned by Hinduvta elements far more by putting ideology ahead of facts, similar to the Abrhamics. Edited January 4, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, Texan said: It is not. A vast majority of our tourism industry caters to domestic tourists. An Indian spending his rupees and giving it to the Government instead of giving it to another private party or keeping it in his bank account is revenue for the Government. We have a very large domestic tourism audience that we should cater to and this audience is growing at an even faster pace than foreign tourists. I think it makes more sense to target tourism towards foreign money, instead of Indian government trying new means to get more money from Indians. If they focussed instead on getting rid of more red tape in India and letting Indian economy grow faster, then they would make more money off of taxes while the public made more money and everyone is happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Just now, Muloghonto said: I think it makes more sense to target tourism towards foreign money, instead of Indian government trying new means to get more money from Indians. If they focussed instead on getting rid of more red tape in India and letting Indian economy grow faster, then they would make more money off of taxes while the public made more money and everyone is happy. The share of foreign money via tourism for leisure is very minuscule in India compared to the domestic tourism contribution and adding a statue is not going to change it "that much". We are better off fortifying the medical tourism industry for foreigners and I see a lot of potential there for what India can offer. However, let us not neglect the domestic tourism industry. With a middle class that is more aspirational and has access to resources to satisfy their needs, all states need to compete for their share of these tourists and I see a huge potential here by creating a huge statue in the middle of the sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Muloghonto said: Bigger question is, is Mumbai able to handle said increase in tourist traffic ? Last time i was in mumbai, it was a traveller's nightmare due to its over-congested city. It makes Kolkata look like a village. I am not from Mumbai, people from there would know a lot better... But I guess the outskirts (like Panvel) are alot better... and Internally they could build flyovers for easing traffic ...I was in Mumbai just for half a day last week. Then took bus for Pune from kalanagar near Bandra. The bus went from Navi Mumbai and Panvel areas I guess where traffic was easy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, Texan said: The share of foreign money via tourism for leisure is very minuscule in India compared to the domestic tourism contribution and adding a statue is not going to change it "that much". We are better off fortifying the medical tourism industry for foreigners and I see a lot of potential there for what India can offer. However, let us not neglect the domestic tourism industry. With a middle class that is more aspirational and has access to resources to satisfy their needs, all states need to compete for their share of these tourists and I see a huge potential here by creating a huge statue in the middle of the sea. I think India has a lot of regular tourism potential. Currently it is a minuscule thing, but if we see how much foreign tourism revenue European nations like France, Italy, Greece, etc. derive, we can easily see it become a significant portion of Indian revenue- especially if we have the infrastructure and tourism directed services proliferate in India. IMO, domestic tourism is always going to be secondary concern to foreign tourism, because domestic tourism isn't generating net income for the nation, foreign tourism is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Regarding how Buddhism waned in 1st millenium in this region, especially in the south, the kings and ruling class were Jains (Hoysala kings like VIshnuvardhana), but the general public were predominently hindus. The kings built temples like in Belur/Halebid/Somnathpur which only have hindu religious text references, proves that the kings who wanted to leave a legacy had to be closer to the people and their religion. This is past 1000 A.D. It seems like the ruling class were Buddhists/Jains, but they could not influence the common man to convert. Shravanabelagola (Bahubali's statue) is an exception which has a Jain monk's statue. Also, with the advent of Shankaracharya , Ramanujacharya, Madhwacharyas in the south, Hinduism had to prevail over other religions with the Bhakti yuga. For 500 years, people drenched in religion/religious texts etc., was one of the reasons technology and industrial development was sidelined in this era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: I think India has a lot of regular tourism potential. Currently it is a minuscule thing, but if we see how much foreign tourism revenue European nations like France, Italy, Greece, etc. derive, we can easily see it become a significant portion of Indian revenue- especially if we have the infrastructure and tourism directed services proliferate in India. IMO, domestic tourism is always going to be secondary concern to foreign tourism, because domestic tourism isn't generating net income for the nation, foreign tourism is. I agree with you that getting foreign tourists for leisure would be great, but that is not a problem that we are going to solve anytime soon. There are multiple aspects that we need to improve on - infrastructure, which is at least 20-30 years behind satisfying current needs, let alone be scalable for future population growth, widespread infectious diseases, unsafe drinking water, unsafe living conditions for foreigners, etc. A big overcrowded polluted city like Mumbai is hardly something a foreign tourist looking for a nice vacation looks forward to. There are other parts of the country, such as Goa and Rajasthan that are better suited to catering to foreign tourists. What we can improve on in the big cities is laying down the infrastructure and have the facilities top notch for medical tourism. Medical costs in Western countries, particularly the USA, have shot through the roof and India, with its highly qualified professionals in the medical field and good private care facilities can serve as a great destination for foreign tourists to get their medical treatments done at a fraction of the cost that it would typically cost for the same service in their native countries. This is where we can see quick gains and make a name for ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibarn Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Muloghonto said: 1.He did not mention killing civillians. He said he killed people in battle. He didn't mention soldiers either, and you think all 100,000 were soldiers That's quite a leap. What makes you think Buddhist Aurangzeb didn't murder Civilians By the way, here is a source for you: http://www.indologica.com/volumes/vol23-24/vol23-24_art28_NORMAN.pdf It mentions 100,000 were killed there and 150,000 were transported. Transported usually refers to slaves as war booty. Now, do you honestly think that 150,000 soldiers were transported as war booty? If any of those were civilians, then it clearly shows that he waged war on civilians as well. Quote 2. Ashoavadana is not a historic text. This book is laughable, since it says Ashoka promised Dinara- a word that is NOT POSSIBLE to be present in India for 200 years after Ashoka, to people who bring him his head. As i said, if you read Ashokavadana, it becomes entirely clear that it is completely unreliable religious propaganda. I know the Dinara controversy, yet you use a single instance to discredit everything written in the book. A book people still use to write history about Ashoka. Old sources of history are the same all around the world, they embelish some stuff and other things get altered when the text is rewritten. You are attempting to discredit the whole thing based on what could possibly be a renaming. The coins may have had a different name in Ashoka's time, but when the text is rewritten, the writer uses the prevalent vocabulary of the day. That doesn't discredit the whole document. Only for Buddhist fundamentalists like yourself does that apply. Similarly embellished stories don't disprove the action. This is supposed to be a heroic tale/religious text on Ashoka, relating to Buddhism, and in that text he commits genocide. It stating that he killed 18,000 may indeed be far-fetched, but even if he killed an arbitrary number such as 5 it qualifies as mass murder. To top that off, murdering that many people in a day is considered a legendary deed by his cult You are using the same argument Muslim fundamentalists and their apologists use regarding the genocides in Babarnamma, Akbarnamma, etc. "There's no way he killed that many." Not to mention that you sound just like that Outsider poster with his seeing "Hindutva conspiracies" everywhere. As I said, Ashoka's "accomplishments" aren't exactly from modern day style sources either, but those are okay with you. I wonder why Quote Plundering village after village definitely qualifies as being a marauder. His method was so successful that the later Peshwas tried the same tactic in Bengal, Bihar and Oudh - known as Bargi raids, where innocents were slaughtered. And yet the primary sources say that Shivaji didn't attack civilians, even those from his enemies. He is one of the most beloved figures in Surat, a place he supposedly plundered. The fact is that it was Maratha policy under Shivaji to not kill civilians, women, children. That doesn't mean civilians never died or were never attacked. Unlike you, I'm not naive. If you want to call Shivaji a marauder because villages were hit during war, you must apply the same standard to everyone and every war in history. The Bargi attacks didn't start to happen until after almost 60 yrs from his death. Your beloved Ashoka on the other hand acknowledges attacking people and only your blind belief says that no civilians or villages were hit. To add to that him/his followers openly celebrate/idealize genocidal attacks, and he even makes a veiled threat to attack Kalinga again That apparently doesn't meet your standards for marauder Your self-righteous labeling of Shivaji falls flat when you do gymnastics to protect Ashoka, based on his religion. It falls even flatter when in the same breath you idolize the British who murdered millions and devastated economies of not just Bengal, but all of India. I don't expect much more from you Gappu. Quote Only money-hogging pigs think that providing state funded services are 'foolish economic policies', which is a template for virtually every successful state that is not expanding into empty space. Again, you being an idiot with self-righteous, sanctimonious, faux care for the poor doesn't alter reality. You claimed he was good for the economy. You aren't aware of even the basics of economics (in a previous thread you claimed Scandinavia was "Socialist" and you weren't even aware that the bulk of those countries were economically developed before the formation of their Nanny-states, but you advocated a Nanny state model for India to follow. So much for reading history ). What's funny in this portion of the post is you don't even realize you are simultaneously claiming that Ashoka was a great administrator, among the 3 greatest in the history of humanity, based on no evidence provided, yet the empire he built collapsed soon after his death. He was such a great administrator that he couldn't make a system that could effectively transition after his death. On the other hand, you claim Shivaji was a horrible administrator, once again providing no proof, and yet he leaves behind a system that liberates 2/3 of India from foreign rule. Noting your propensity for making long-winded posts in attempts to weasal out of proving your claims, please provide proof for your original claim while quoting me, which was: Quote I'd put Netaji,Gandhi, BG Tilak, Naoroji, Tagore, Ramanujan, Raman, Mahalanobis, RM Roy, Rani Rashmoni- the list is pretty huge. Its not that hard to find names of Indians who've done more for India than an up jumped marauder who wanted a subcontinent sized personal fief. Just because he fought the Mughals doesn't make him an Indian hero, especially since he did f-all for India and Indians. The 3 claims were: 1) Shivaji was a jumped up marauder who wanted a subcontinent sized personal fief 2) Shivaji did nothing/ next to nothing for Indians 3) That SCB, Gandhi, Tilak, Naoroji, Tagore, Ramanujan, etc, etc did more for India and Indians than Shivaji. As a self described polymath: Engineer cum Software Engineer cum Scientist cum Geneticist cum Historian cum Psychologist cum Biologist cum Evolutionary Biologist cum Anthropologist cum Statistician cum whatever else you decide to pretend to be tomorrow, it shouldn't be so hard for you. Best of luck. Oh, and since you are all of the things mention above, you won't have trouble providing scholarly sources, ie primary literature, to back up the "legions" of "evidence" I expect from you. Oh yeah, don't try your usual shifting the burden of proof. We all know who was the first to quote who in this thread. As I am bored of the tu-tu me-me with you I will post this final ad hominem, afterwards, feel free to continue with as many as you want, I will just I will just laugh off your stupidity and troll you. Wikipedia and WebMD aren't the source of knowledge. I know old fools like yourself with over-inflated egos, over-compensating for the worthless, insignificant life you have lived, like to pretend to be wise and learned, but evidence is required for people with brains. You should remember that next time you decide to play pretend "scientist" like you do in most threads or "historian" like you are doing here. Whatever weak neural connections you make skimming Wikipedia and pretending to know facts, despite obvious lack of both training and competence, may impress a few forum fans of your's(like that Texan character), but not me. The fact that you haven't read any of the seminal works on Shivaji and his reign betrays your jaundiced worldview colored by your faux-nationalism(celebrating British genocide and looting of Indians), misplaced Buddhist chauvinism (clearly exposed by your highlighting Shivaji's religion to imply that it was a form of Hinduism that was the cause of what you claim to be marauding), and odd Bengali-superiority complex (I saw those shots you took at people from the Hindi-heartland, Maharashtra, and Gujarat in the other thread). You can continue to attempt to needle me with your tired "Bacche" comment that you regurgitate every-so often, but it only exposes your own insecurities that, despite your advanced age, something you seem to wear as a mark of accomplishment, you can't seem to counter a "Bacchu's" logical arguments with anything other than garden-variety logical fallacies, deflecting from providing sources, and meandering posts of bizarre, unsupported conclusions. I realize that you think your act is clever, but it is more pathetic than anything. Feel free to continue with the impotent rage of an intellectual eunuch. Edited January 4, 2017 by Tibarn surajmal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tibarn said: He didn't mention soldiers either, and you think all 100,000 were soldiers That's quite a leap. What makes you think Buddhist Aurangzeb didn't murder Civilians There have been plenty of ancient armies with more than 100,000 soldiers. Hannibal destroyed a Roman Army of 100,000 in 1 day in Cannae. Don't even bother challenging Roman numbers, they are all your collective historical BAAP in accurate record keeping. As for what makes me think he didnt kill civilians - its the simple scientific process of absence of evidence. Something you are yet to learn. Quote It mentions 100,000 were killed there and 150,000 were transported. Transported usually refers to slaves as war booty. Now, do you honestly think that 150,000 soldiers were transported as war booty? If any of those were civilians, then it clearly shows that he waged war on civilians as well. Deportation != mass murder. Quote I know the Dinara controversy, yet you use a single instance to discredit everything written in the book. A book people still use to write history about Ashoka. Old sources of history are the same all around the world, they embelish some stuff and other things get altered when the text is rewritten. You are attempting to discredit the whole thing based on what could possibly be a renaming. Bachchey, unlike you, i've actually read the Ashokavadana. Dinar is only one controversy. Plenty of holes in the Ashokavadana, which is why i showed you links from historians themselves that Ashokavadana is not reliable. There are holes, such as Ashokavadana calls every dynasty after Mahapadma as Shudras. Even the Kanvas, who were one of the rare Brahmin dynasties. It also calls Pushyamitra Sunga as descendant of Mauryas- which again, is contradicted by many sources. As i said, no-matter how much a hindu fundie like you wants Ashokavadana to be a historical text, it isn't treated as such by historians who've read it. Of that, i've supplied plenty of evidence. And no, old sources of history are NOT the same around the world. The Romans, Greeks & Chinese are a CLASS above the rest in recording history because they invented the art of it. We know EXACTLY how much copper & Silver were mined in Rome circa 100 AD because we have roman ledgers for it. We know EXACTLY how many people were involved in digging the grand canal in China, because they left EXACT numbers, including matching grain supply, housing needs for it. Those are just one example of thousands upon thousands of recordings of Roman, Greek & Chinese history where we can say PRECISELY what many of their kings/emperors/Consuls did, why they did it, when they did it. Romans, Greeks, Chinese- they left behind detailed battle descriptions. To date, the most detailed Indian battle description is that of Porus getting his ass kicked by Alexander. We know how many men engaged, where, whether the cavalry attacked first, what formation, what maneuvers, etc. We do not know a SINGLE Indian historical battle with such detail till like the British. Heck, even your precious Shivaji, operating in an era of printing press, didnt leave behind as much detail of his battles as the Romans did in their civil war 2000+ years ago! India ? Pff. We have ballads and tall tales and thats it! So no, not 'all ancient history texts are the same'. Indians are near the bottom of the pile, lower than even the Arabs when it comes to accurate & empirical recording of history. Just about the only exception are the Ashokan Rock/Pillar edicts, because thats pretty much the ONLY instant of our history where a ruler leaves behind records of the nature of 'this year, i did this, we dug that well over there, built those things, exactly that many things were made',etc. But in your hinduvta fundie-fuelled diatribe, you are trashing just about the ONLY Indian ruler who can even begin to match up to the Romans/Greeks/Chinese in precise recording of events of his own rule. Quote It falls even flatter when in the same breath you idolize the British who murdered millions and devastated economies of not just Bengal, but all of India. Unlike a hindu fundie like you, i can see the PROS AND CONS of british rule. neither justifies the other, but i do think the reason we are not a middle eastern basket case is because of our rule of law, which is thanks to the Brits, not the hinduvtas. Oh and i am not the one to bring religion into it- you and your chaddi-buddy Surajmal were. There is no gymnastics involved in defence of Ashoka. I've already outlined my and the standard academic position: They ALL rate archaeological evidence >> current time evidence (i.e. 1st hand evidence) >> later times evidence (i.e., 2nd hand evidence) >> folk tales. THAT is the order of precedence of evidence. Ashoka fulfills criteria 1 (archaeological evidence) better than ANY hindu/buddhist/jain ruler in India. Shivaji does not. And i am simply putting archaeological evidence of the Rock inscriptions/pillar inscriptions ahead of 2nd hand evidence of Ashokavadana, which is 300-400 years AFTER Ashoka. Standard procedure in history kiddo- if archaeology contradicts what people hundreds of years later wrote, archaeology wins. Same applies here. Quote You claimed he was good for the economy. You aren't aware of even the basics of economics (in a previous thread you claimed Scandinavia was "Socialist" and you weren't even aware that the bulk of those countries were economically developed before the formation of their Nanny-states, but you advocated a Nanny state model for India to follow. So much for reading history ). I don't know what shit-hole you graduated from, but putting an idea in quotation marks, as i originally did, indicates its alleged usage- which i also clarified- instead of usage by me. But then again, pseudo-science experts like you wouldn't know the first thing about citation either. And yes, nanny state model is the best model. Quote What's funny in this portion of the post is you don't even realize you are simultaneously claiming that Ashoka was a great administrator, among the 3 greatest in the history of humanity, based on no evidence provided, yet the empire he built collapsed soon after his death. He was such a great administrator that he couldn't make a system that could effectively transition after his death. On the other hand, you claim Shivaji was a horrible administrator, once again providing no proof, and yet he leaves behind a system that liberates 2/3 of India from foreign rule. The proof that Ashoka was greatest Indian administrator, is provided in archaeology of his rocks and pillar edicts. Nothing more needs to be said. His empire collapsed for the same reason why many empire collapsed/faced collapse : Ashoka ruled for 40+ years and died at the age of 70+. Thus leaving a plethora of sons, grandsons, etc. to rule after him. Had you ACTUALLY studied history, you'd know that this template of royal collapse is the most prevalent, with the Mughals after Aurangzeb, Rashtrakutas after Amogavarsha, all either collapsing or facing near collapse for the same reason : ruler rules for 40-50 years, leaves behind too many kids, direct successor is already too old/nearly dead too and too much fracturing of power. Quote Noting your propensity for making long-winded posts in attempts to weasal out of proving your claims, please provide proof for your original claim while quoting me, which was: Two-bit honkeys like you love to make claims and then put the burden of proof on others. I already said, i will provide proof, after YOU provide proof of your claims first, which you made first. You were the first to make claim that Shivaji saved us from being a middle-eastern esque cesspit and saved India from becoming muslim. So prove that or STFU. Once you provide proof, i will provide proof for claims i made later. Quote I will just I will just laugh off your stupidity and troll you. Thank you for admitting thats your sole contribution to this website. Quote ...you can't seem to counter a "Bacchu's" logical arguments with anything other than garden-variety logical fallacies, deflecting from providing sources, and meandering posts of bizarre, unsupported conclusions. I realize that you think your act is clever, but it is more pathetic than anything. Feel free to continue with the impotent rage of an intellectual eunuch. So said every 20-something kiddo who thinks they are too big for their breaches. But don't worry- you will grow out of your self-hatred induced preening one day. Quote clearly exposed by your highlighting Shivaji's religion to imply that it was a form of Hinduism that was the cause of what you claim to be marauding) I didnt say Shivaji's marauding was a form of Hinduism, i said that Marathas, who were Hindus, were incapable of forming a polity suitable for the late reneissance/early industrial era, with their form of governance & succession laws belonging to the medeival times. Ie, they were not good enough. As your chaddi-buddy Surajmal has already admitted in this thread and i agreed- it isn't Shivaji's fault that hindu polities had decayed to the point that they were incapable of forming competent government. But unlike him, i don't give Shivaji a pass for it, i see it as a hole in his resume. Edited January 4, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 3 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Bigger question is, is Mumbai able to handle said increase in tourist traffic ? Last time i was in mumbai, it was a traveller's nightmare due to its over-congested city. It makes Kolkata look like a village. I am assuming you are talking about foreign tourists. Thing is, no one is going to come down to Mumbai for the sake of this statue. But yes, it would make a good selfie point. So while it may not get people to Bombay ( prefer that name), it will still be on the to see list of every tourist. Just like the Statue of Liberty in NYC. Besides, this is off the coast. So a ferry service would be developed for this. It may just bring in much needed $$ to the state exchequer. There are some Koli communities in and around Badhwar Park who have complained that this could negatively impact their daily yield. Not sure if this is a legit claim or just an attempt to get as much from the GoI. Vilander and mishra 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: Regarding how Buddhism waned in 1st millenium in this region, especially in the south, the kings and ruling class were Jains (Hoysala kings like VIshnuvardhana), but the general public were predominently hindus. The kings built temples like in Belur/Halebid/Somnathpur which only have hindu religious text references, proves that the kings who wanted to leave a legacy had to be closer to the people and their religion. This is past 1000 A.D. It seems like the ruling class were Buddhists/Jains, but they could not influence the common man to convert. Shravanabelagola (Bahubali's statue) is an exception which has a Jain monk's statue. Also, with the advent of Shankaracharya , Ramanujacharya, Madhwacharyas in the south, Hinduism had to prevail over other religions with the Bhakti yuga. For 500 years, people drenched in religion/religious texts etc., was one of the reasons technology and industrial development was sidelined in this era. This is more on the right track. The reason for collapse of Jainism & Buddhism are complex and oversimplified by Hinduvtas as 'they never were that many, they were weak & peace loving so they failed', which completely belies all evidence of Indian history. And what chafes our Hinduvtas so much, is the one failing of India, is that we never produced a historian worth his salt throughout our history. It becomes abundantly clear that people like Ibn Batuta, Huen Tsang, etc. are FAR more empiric in their observations (they leave behind more accurately recorded numbers, in more diverse fields) than even people like Kalhana, who is one of our last source of Hindu history. Whereas the Chinese monks leave things like 'and i don't know where Harsha's ancestors originally claim power from', Kalhana cooks up BS for every single lineage & empire to the point where its laughable. Heck, even Megasthenes, from 300 BC leaves a more complete and organized account of India, despite facing severe culture shock & language barriers, than ANY Indian historian has. But a cursory glance at the numbers left behind by these travelling foreign monks, foreign emissaries, etc. shows that Buddhism + Jainism peaked from 200s BC - 500s AD with mass scale popularity and then gradually waned, suffering terminal decline with the invasions of Mohammed Bin Bhaktiyar Khilji and destruction of several universities that were predominantly funded by the Buddhist Pala empire. One of the major differences, noted between the arrival of Faxian and Xuanzang is that the Sanghas had closed their doors to laymen, with Xuanzang speculating its because of reasons of common man seeking shelter & food to turn Bhikku instead of philosophical tilt. whatever the reason, the slow decline of Buddhism/Jainism during this period does seem to fit that of a Sangha that has cut off the laymen in terms of easy admission. Edited January 4, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda-esque Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Dont know about the statue, but lot of knowledge gleaned from historical experts on Shivaji Maharaj...:) Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk Mariyam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibarn Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 14 hours ago, Muloghonto said: As for what makes me think he didnt kill civilians - its the simple scientific process of absence of evidence. Something you are yet to learn. The null is that both were killed, not that only soldiers were killed. A vanilla statement mentioning 100,000 with no qualifiers doesn't mean only soldiers were killed. I like how you ignored the 150,000 transported. Looks like the weasel doesn't change it's character . Where did they come from, all the fields you fertilize with the bullsh*t you post as fact? You are making an assumption that his army was solely involved based on no evidence. Looks like the Fedex-Kinko's that Master's degree came from didn't even teach what a null hypothesis was. Let's reproduce the relevant portion of his Rock Edict at Girnar. As I stated, I won't let you weasel out, via Colorado State: https://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/ashoka.html Quote Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, conquered the Kalingas eight years after his coronation.[25] One hundred and fifty thousand were deported, one hundred thousand were killed and many more died (from other causes). After the Kalingas had been conquered, Beloved-of-the-Gods came to feel a strong inclination towards the Dhamma, a love for the Dhamma and for instruction in Dhamma. Now Beloved-of-the-Gods feels deep remorse for having conquered the Kalingas. So the red states that 150,000 were deported. The blue states that 100,000 were killed. The green states that many more died from other causes. So who were the 150,000 deported? Not even Buddhist Aurangzeb would be dumb enough to deport his own troops, so they must be denizens of Kalinga. That is, unless you think he lacks the ability to produce coherent thoughts and was referring to somewhere else. The many more that died, if the number was even a grand total of 3 and were civilians, would and does show ole Ashoka to be a mass murderer. What were the other causes which were not direct executions? Likely famine, disease, etc stemming from his brutal military campaign that lasted almost a year. Especially in terms of famine, this also shows Ashoka to be what you accuse Shivaji of being, a marauder who attacked and damaged villages. Next portion of the edict: Quote Indeed, Beloved-of-the-Gods is deeply pained by the killing, dying and deportation that take place when an unconquered country is conquered. But Beloved-of-the-Gods is pained even more by this -- that Brahmans, ascetics, and householders of different religions who live in those countries, and who are respectful to superiors, to mother and father, to elders, and who behave properly and have strong loyalty towards friends, acquaintances, companions, relatives, servants and employees -- that they are injured, killed or separated from their loved ones. Even those who are not affected (by all this) suffer when they see friends, acquaintances, companions and relatives affected. These misfortunes befall all (as a result of war), and this pains Beloved-of-the-Gods. According to you this red portion implies only soldiers and according to you the blue portion, which mentions how the hardships of war affect all related to a war. Yeah civilians clearly weren't involved (sarcasm) A later portion Quote Even the forest people, who live in Beloved-of-the-Gods' domain, are entreated and reasoned with to act properly. They are told that despite his remorse Beloved-of-the-Gods has the power to punish them if necessary, so that they should be ashamed of their wrong and not be killed. Truly, Beloved-of-the-Gods desires non-injury, restraint and impartiality to all beings, even where wrong has been done. Here he threatens to kill the forest people if they don't follow his rules, despite them not being in the boundaries of his territory. This clearly shows a pacifist-yugpurush who wasn't a mass murderer, yeah right Quote I have had this Dhamma edict written so that my sons and great-grandsons may not consider making new conquests, or that if military conquests are made, that they be done with forbearance and light punishment, or better still, that they consider making conquest by Dhamma only, for that bears fruit in this world and the next. May all their intense devotion be given to this which has a result in this world and the next. The great pacifist didn't even forbid his sons from continuing conquest. Quote Hannibal destroyed a Roman Army of 100,000 in 1 day in Cannae. Don't even bother challenging Roman numbers, they are all your collective historical BAAP in accurate record keeping. My dear, sweet Gappu (I bothered), it looks like you didn't include a source here either. I shall fix it for you, your BAAP Tibarn is always there to clean up your mess, after all, Baap Baap hota hai. All sources related to the Battle of Cannae are from Roman and Greek sources, so there is no reason to question Roman sources. Not to mention I have studied Latin as well. Having said that, let's dive into the sources: Polybius (Greek, c. 204-122 BC) Universal History, books 3-1 https://web.archive.org/web/20050407172948/http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/ancient/polybius-cannae.html Quote It was to Aemilius [L. Aemilius Paullus, Consul for 216 B.C.] that all eyes turned, and on him the most confident hopes were fixed; for his life had been a noble one, and he was thought to have managed the recent Illyrian war with advantage to the state. The Senate determined to bring eight legions into the field, which had never been done at Rome before, each legion consisting of five thousand men besides allies. For the Romans, as I have state before, habitually enroll four legions per year, each consisting of about four thousand foot and two hundred horse; and when any unusual necessity arises, they raise the number of foot to five thousand and of the horse to three hundred. Of allies, the number in each legion is the same as that of the citizens, but of the horse three times as great. Of the four legions thus composed, they assign two to each of the Consuls for whatever service is going on. Most of their wars are decided by one Consul and two legions, with their quota of allies [thus two citizen legions and two allied legions combined]; and they rarely employ all four at one time and on one service. But on this occasion, so great was the alarm and terror of what would happen, they resolved to bring not only four but eight legions into the field [thus eight citizen legions and eight allied legions combined--about 90,000 men]. Looks like you were off 10,000 men. Wait, there's more Livy (Roman, 59 BC-17 AD): History of Rome from its Foundation, books 21-3 http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Livy/Livy22.html Quote [22.36]The armies were increased, but as to what additions were made to the infantry and cavalry, the authorities vary so much, both as to the numbers and nature of the forces, that I should hardly venture to assert anything as positively certain. Some say that 10,000 recruits were called out to make up the losses; others, that four new legions were enrolled so that they might carry on the war with eight legions. Some authorities record that both horse and foot in the legions were made stronger by the addition of 1000 infantry and 100 cavalry to each, so that they contained 5000 infantry and 300 cavalry, whilst the allies furnished double the number of cavalry and an equal number of infantry. Thus, according to these writers, there were 87,200 men in the Roman camp when the battle of Cannae was fought. One thing is quite certain; the struggle was resumed with greater vigour and energy than in former years, because the Dictator had given them reason to hope that the enemy might be conquered. But before the newly raised legions left the City the decemvirs were ordered to consult the Sacred Books owing to the general alarm which had been created by fresh portents. It was reported that showers of stones had fallen simultaneously on the Aventine in Rome and at Aricia; that the statues of the gods amongst the Sabines had sweated blood, and cold water had flowed from the hot springs. This latter portent created more terror, because it had happened several times. In the colonnade near the Campus several men had been killed by lightning. The proper expiation of these portents was ascertained from the Sacred Books. Some envoys from Paestum brought golden bowls to Rome. Thanks were voted to them as in the case of the Neapolitans, but the gold was not accepted. 12,800 men off this time. By the way, here is a second portion you would do well to read: Quote These latter were at once surrounded by Carthalo and his cavalry, as the village was quite unfortified. The other consul, who either by accident or design had not joined any of these bodies of fugitives, escaped with about fifty cavalry to Venusia; 45,500 infantry, 2700 cavalry - almost an equal proportion of Romans and allies - are said to have been killed. Amongst the number were both the quaestors attached to the consuls, L. Atilius and L. Furius Bibulcus, twenty-nine military tribunes, several ex-consuls, ex-praetors, and ex-aediles (amongst them are included Cn. Servilius Geminus and M. Minucius, who was Master of the Horse the previous year and, some years before that, consul), and in addition to these, eighty men who had either been senators or filled offices qualifying them for election to the senate and who had volunteered for service with the legions. The prisoners taken in the battle are stated to have amounted to 3000 infantry and 1500 cavalry. Not only did you get the size of the army wrong, but the amount of Romans dead as well. No wonder you didn't want me to check your claim Back to the Buddhist Aurangzeb: A quick summary of all the major, important sources pertaining to Ashoka, just to make sure my dear pet weasel doesn't try any circus tricks. 1) Ashoka-vadana Quote A Sanskrit language text that is purely dedicated to the life of Ashoka from birth to death. It is told from a positive perspective and portrays Ashoka as someone whose only goal was to spread Buddhism. It is fairly criticized for possible embellishment of numbers and facts, but, this is irrelevant, as the entire purpose of the text is to glorify Ashoka. Quote Some of what is says about Ashoka: He murdered 18,000 Ajivikas in Bengal in a single day He created a torture chamber, named as Ashoka's Hell, which was administered by a close confidant and psychopath and confidant named Girika. He spent so much money that his advisers had to stop him from spending and after his death, taxes were raised to obscene levels to try to pay off debt He offered a gold coin for the head of every Jain monk whose head was brought to him after a Jain produced art he found offensive to Buddhism 2) Dipavamsa Quote The Dipavamsa, or "Deepavamsa", (i.e., Chronicle of the Island, in Pali) is the oldest historical record of Sri Lanka. The chronicle is believe to be compiled from Atthakatha and other sources around the 3-4th century. Together with Mahavamsa, it is the source of many accounts of ancient history of Sri Lanka and India. Its importance resides not only as a source of history and legend, but also as an important early work in Buddhist and Pali literature. The Dipavamsa is considered "source material" to the Mahavamsa, The latter is more coherently organized, and is probably the greatest religious and historical Epic work in the Pali language. The historiography (i.e., the chronology of kings, battles etc.) given in the Mahavamsa, and to that extent in the Dipavasma, are believed to be largely correct from about the time of the death of Ashoka. 3) Mahavamsa Quote While not considered a canonical religious text, the Mahavamsa is an important text in Theravada Buddhism. It covers the early history of religion in Sri Lanka, beginning with the time of the Buddha. It also briefly recounts the history of Buddhism in India, from the date of the Buddha's death to the various Buddhist councils where the Dhamma was reviewed. Every chapter of the Mahavamsa ends by stating that it is written for the "serene joy of the pious". From the emphasis of its point-of-view, it can be said to have been compiled to record the good deeds of the kings who were patrons of the Mahavihara temple in Anuradhapura. Sources 2) and 3) both state that Ashoka murdered his 99 brothers. He also murdered his eldest brother, after his father's death, to seize the throne. They state that he was known as Chandashoka (~Ashoka the terrible). If you want to disregard those 3, all that is left is essentially his rock edicts. In the same rock edicts, it is clearly implied that Kalinga is devastated by his invasion. It's only your wishful thinking that says that only soldiers were killed. The same rock edicts also show him threatening to invade forest people who are outside of his territorial boundaries, if they don't follow his beliefs and rules. If that doesn't show he was a tyrant, I don't know what does. You can play ignorant, or maybe you are indeed stupid enough to not see what's right there, but that's your prerogative. The most damning fact is that none of the 4 sources about Ashoka are written by antagonists. All 4 are written either by his own sympathizers or himself, in the case of the rock edicts. And all 4 depict him as the mass murderer he was. You will not provide any sources for your fantastic claims, but that is to be expected from a Buddhist Supremacist. Now back to what you are avoiding: Quote The 3 claims were: 1) Shivaji was a jumped up marauder who wanted a subcontinent sized personal fief 2) Shivaji did nothing/ next to nothing for Indians 3) That SCB, Gandhi, Tilak, Naoroji, Tagore, Ramanujan, etc, etc did more for India and Indians than Shivaji. As a self described polymath: Engineer cum Software Engineer cum Scientist cum Geneticist cum Historian cum Psychologist cum Biologist cum Evolutionary Biologist cum Anthropologist cum Statistician cum whatever else you decide to pretend to be tomorrow, it shouldn't be so hard for you. Best of luck. Oh, and since you are all of the things mention above, you won't have trouble providing scholarly sources, ie primary literature, to back up the "legions" of "evidence" I expect from you. Looks like you soiled yourself , like the other 8 times you blindly charged into battle with me, bereft of sources for anything you claim. I expect you to back up these fantastic claims you made or run away like you usually do. Also, I noticed you still didn't provide an Economics paper that support your economic theories. Too much for the great polymath to provide a source? Just copy Scandinavia bro, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tibarn said: The null is that both were killed, not that only soldiers were killed. A vanilla statement mentioning 100,000 with no qualifiers doesn't mean only soldiers were killed. I like how you ignored the 150,000 transported. Looks like the weasel doesn't change it's character . Where did they come from, all the fields you fertilize with the bullsh*t you post as fact? You are making an assumption that his army was solely involved based on no evidence. Looks like the Fedex-Kinko's that Master's degree came from didn't even teach what a null hypothesis was. The null is civilians killed are collateral damage (which as you said happens in every battle). 150K transported, does not imply he is a mass-murderer, which is the statement of yours i am disputing. Quote So the red states that 150,000 were deported. The blue states that 100,000 were killed. The green states that many more died from other causes. So who were the 150,000 deported? Not even Buddhist Aurangzeb would be dumb enough to deport his own troops, so they must be denizens of Kalinga. That is, unless you think he lacks the ability to produce coherent thoughts and was referring to somewhere else. The many more that died, if the number was even a grand total of 3 and were civilians, would and does show ole Ashoka to be a mass murderer. What were the other causes which were not direct executions? Likely famine, disease, etc stemming from his brutal military campaign that lasted almost a year. Especially in terms of famine, this also shows Ashoka to be what you accuse Shivaji of being, a marauder who attacked and damaged villages. Nobody denied that he deported/enslaved captives. I disputed that he is a mass-murderer. As he said, 150K were deported. Deportation != mass murder. 100K killed + many more died from other causes implies 100K killed in battle, many more are collateral damage. And no, even if 3 people died, that doesn't make him a mass murderer, since there is ALWAYS collateral damage in war. if that makes Ashoka mass murderer, then Shivaji too is a mass murderer, since you said you are not naive enough to think no civilians died in Shivaji's war activities. To quote you: Quote He is one of the most beloved figures in Surat, a place he supposedly plundered. The fact is that it was Maratha policy under Shivaji to not kill civilians, women, children. That doesn't mean civilians never died or were never attacked. Unlike you, I'm not naive. So if civilians died or were attacked, as you concede, then Shivaji too is a mass-murderer. Quote Looks like you were off 10,000 men. Wait, there's more Oh heavens no! i am off by 10K. Did you forget the fact that you questioned that 100K dying cannot surely be soldiers and i pointed out that Hannibal killed 100K in ONE DAY, ALL soldiers, with Kalinga being a 3-5 year long war ? So i was off by 10K. But my point still stands- if you can kill 90K in one day of battle in 200 BC Italy, you can kill 100K soldiers over months/years in Orissa. Quote Sources 2) and 3) both state that Ashoka murdered his 99 brothers. He also murdered his eldest brother, after his father's death, to seize the throne. They state that he was known as Chandashoka (~Ashoka the terrible). Actually Dipavamsa says that Ashoka was banished to Central India (Dakshina Kosala), when Bimbisara died and Sashimi assumed the throne, who suspected the nobles wanted Ashoka instead (he was correct) and tried to assassinate him, with support from the royal family. Shortly after the failed assassination attempt, the nobles arrived, promised to support Ashoka and Ashoka went and seized the throne. So i don't see whats so bloody psychopathic about that - if i am out of the picture, banished and my brothers still tried to assassinate me without cause, i am not the unhinged one for getting rid of them. Quote In the same rock edicts, it is clearly implied that Kalinga is devastated by his invasion. It's only your wishful thinking that says that only soldiers were killed. The same rock edicts also show him threatening to invade forest people who are outside of his territorial boundaries, if they don't follow his beliefs and rules. If that doesn't show he was a tyrant, I don't know what does. You can play ignorant, or maybe you are indeed stupid enough to not see what's right there, but that's your prerogative. Threatening to invade tribals if they don't follow his rules makes him a tyrant ? Ok then, every single ruler is a tyrant, since every single ruler by default has/would invade tribals in the periphery who are not going to abide by the rule. This actually is far more pragmatic than countless rulers who go stomping into forests chasing tribals only to get bogged down- this is getting what you want (same result as invasion- its not like tribals are going to pay taxes, its purely pacification invasions) without risking your army getting mired in jungle. Quote The most damning fact is that none of the 4 sources about Ashoka are written by antagonists. All 4 are written either by his own sympathizers or himself, in the case of the rock edicts. And all 4 depict him as the mass murderer he was. If stating that people died in your war campaign makes him a mass-murderer, then Shivaji too was a mass murderer. you are the idiot who thinks that 3-4 civillians dying is mass-murder and then earlier state that you are not naive enough to think no civilians died in Shivaji's wars, therefore, Shivaji too is a mass murderer by your own logic. if that is true, then by your logic, ALL rulers who have ever waged war are all mass murderers. Quote Looks like you soiled yourself , like the other 8 times you blindly charged into battle with me, bereft of sources for anything you claim. I expect you to back up these fantastic claims you made or run away like you usually do. Also, I noticed you still didn't provide an Economics paper that support your economic theories. Too much for the great polymath to provide a source? Just copy Scandinavia bro, I have said to you many times, i am not going to fall into your boring 20-something retard trap of putting burden of proof on me, when i don't get proof from you for what I ask. I asked you to prove that Shivaji saved India form turning into a middle eastern-esque Shytehole. As soon as you prove that, bacchey, i will start complying with what you want me to prove. Edited January 5, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) Below are the rock/pillar edicts of Ashoka, written & archaeologically validated from his own time. I shall point out that he beats the hell out of Shivaji or ANY OTHER Indian ruler for leaving first hand archaeological evidence of their own rule. Judge for yourself- he is easily the strongest policy-maker in Indian history: 1st Major Rock Edict The Beloved of the Gods, Piyadassi the king, has had this inscription on Dhamma engraved. Here, no living thing having been killed, is to be sacrificed; nor is the holding of a festival permitted. For the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, sees much evil in festivals, though there are some of which the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, approves. Formerly in the kitchens of the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, many hundreds of thousands of living animals were killed daily for meat. But now, at the time of writing this inscription on Dhamma, only three animals are killed, two peacocks and a deer, and the deer not invariably. Even these three animal will not be killed in future. 2nd Major Rock Edict Everywhere in the empire of the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, and even in the lands on its frontiers, those of the Colas, Pandyas, Satyaputras, Keralaputras, and as far as Ceylon, and of the Greek king named Antiochus and of those kings who are neighbours of that Antiochus, everywhere the two medical services of the Beloved ofthe Gods, the king Piyadassi, have been provided. These consist of the medical care of man and the care of animals. Medicinal herbs whether useful to man or to beast, have been brought and planted wherever they did not grow; similarly, roots and fruit have been brought and planted wherever they did not grow. Along the roads wells have been dug and trees planted for the use of men and beasts. 3rd Major Rock Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: When I had been consecrated twelve years I commanded as follows: Everywhere in my empire, the yuktas [subordinate officers] with the rajukas [rural administrators] and the pradesikas [heads of the districts], shall go on tour every five years, in order to instruct people in the Dhamma as well as for other purposes. It is good to be obedient to one's mother and father, friends and relatives, to be generous to brahmans and sramanas, it is good not to kill living beings, it is good not only to spend little, but to own the minimum of property. The council will instruct the officials to record the above, making it both manifest to the public and explaining why. 4th Major Rock Edict In the past, the killing and injuring of living beings, lack of respect towards relatives, brahmans and sramanas had increased. But today, thanks to the practice of Dhamma, on the part of the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, the sound of the drum has become the sound of Dhamma,showing the people displays of heavenly chariots, elephants, balls offire, and other divine forms. Through his instruction in Dhamma abstention from killing and non-injury to living beings, deference to relatives; brahmans and sramanas, obedience to mother and father, and obedience to elders have all increased as never before for many centuries. These and many other forms of the practice of Dhamma have increased and will increase. The Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, his sons, his grandsons and his great grandsons will advance the practice of Dhamma, until the end of the world and will instruct in the law, standing firm in Dhamma. For this, the instruction in the law, is the most valuable activity. But there is no practice of Dhamna without goodness, and in these matters it is good to progress and not to fall back. For this purpose, the inscription has been engraved -- that men should make progress in this matter, and not be satisfied with their shortcomings. This was engraved here when the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, had been consecrated twelve years. 5th Major Rock Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: It is hard to do good and he who does good, does a difficult thing. And I havedone much good. And my sons, my grandsons and my descendants after them until the end of the world if they will follow my example, they too will do good. But he who neglects my reforms even in part will do wrong, for sin is easy to commit. In the past there were no officers of Dhamma. It was I who first appointed them, when I had been consecrated for thirteen years. They are busy in all sects, establishing Dhamma, increasing the interest in Dhamma, and attending to the welfare and happiness of those who are devoted to, among the Greeks, the Kambojas, the Gandharas, the Risthikas, the Pitinikas, and the other peoples of the west. Among servants and nobles, brahmans and wealthy householders, among the poor and the aged, they [the officers of Dhamma], are working for the welfare and happiness of those devoted to Dhamma and for the removal of their troubles. They are busy in promoting the welfare of prisoners should they have behaved irresponsibly, or releasing those that have children, are afflicted, or are aged. They are busy everywhere, here [atPataliputra] and in all the women's residences, whether my own, those of my brothers and sisters, or those of other relatives. Everywhere throughout my empire the officers of Dhamma are busy in everything relating to Dhamma, in the establishment of Dhamma and in the administration of charities among those devoted to Dhamma. For this purpose has this inscription of Dhamma been engraved. May it endure long and may my descendants conform to it. 6th Major Rock Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi. In the past the quick dispatch of business and the receipt of reports did not take place at all times. But 1 have now arranged it thus. At all times, whether I am eating, or am in the women's apartments, or in my inner apartments, or at the cattle-shed, or in my carriage, or in my gardens - wherever I may be, my informants should keep me in touch with public business. Thus everywhere I transact public business. And whatever I may order by word of mouth, whether it concerns a donation or a proclamation or whatever urgent matter is entrusted to my officers, if there is any dispute or deliberation about it in the Council, it is to be reported to me immediately, at all places and at all times. This I have commanded. In hard work and the dispatch of business alone, I find no satisfaction. For I consider that I must promote the welfare of the whole world, and hard work and the dispatch of business are the means of doing so. Indeed there is no better work than promoting the welfare of the whole world. And whatever may be my great deeds, I have done them in order to discharge my debt to all beings. I work for their happiness in this life, that in the next they may gain heaven. For this purpose has this inscription of Dhamma been engraved. May it endure long. May my sons, grandsons, and great grandsons strive for the welfare of the whole world. But this is difficult without great effort. 7th Major Rock Edict The Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, wishes that all sect may dwell in all places, for all seek self-control and purity of mind. But men have varying desires and varying passions. They will either practise all that is required or else only a part. But even he who is generous, yet has no self control, purity of mind, gratitude, and firm faith, is regarded as mean. 8th Major Rock Edict In the past, kings went on pleasure tours, which consisted of hunts and other similar amusements. The Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, when he had been consecrated ten years, went to the tree of Enlightenment. From that time arose the practice of tours connected with Dhamma, during which meetings are held with ascetics and brahmans, gifts are bestowed, meetings are arranged with aged folk, gold is distributed, meetings with the people of the country side are held, instruction in Dhamma is given, and questions on Dhamma are answered.The Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, derives more pleasure from this, than from any other enjoyments. 9th Major Rock Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi. People practise various ceremonies. In illness, at the marriage of sons and daughters, at the birth of children, when going on a journey- on these and on other similar occasions people perform many ceremonies. Women especially perform a variety of ceremonies, which are trivial and useless. If such ceremonies must be performed they have but small results. But the one ceremony which has great value is that of Dhamma. This ceremony includes, regard for slaves and servants, respect for teachers, restrained behaviour towards living being and donations to sramanas and brahmans -- these and similar practices are called the ceremony of Dhamma. So father, son, brother, master, friend, acquaintance, and neighbour should think, 'This is virtuous, this is the ceremony I should practice, until my object is achieved.' [Kalsi version]. Or else they should say to themselves: Other ceremonies are doubtful in their effectiveness. They may achieve their objects or they may not, and they are only effective in temporal matters. But the ceremony of Dhamma is effective for all time, forever, if its object is not attained in this fife, endless merit is produced for the life to come. But if the object is attained in this life, there is a gain in both respects. For in this life the object is attained, and in the next life, endless merit is produced through that ceremony of Dhamma. [Girnar version]. Moreover, they say: 'Giving is good.' But there is no gift or favour comparable to the gift of Dhamma or the favour of Dhamma. So it is essential that a friend, companion, relative,or colleague should advise on all occasions, saying, 'This should be done. Through this one can gain heaven' - and what can be more important than to gain heaven? 10th Major Rock Edict The Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, sets no great store by fame or glory, except in, that he desires fame and glory both now and in the future, in order that his people may obey Dhamma with obedience and follow the way of Dhamma. To this extent the Beloved of the Gods desires fame and glory. Whatever efforts the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, makes, it is all done with a view to the after-life, that all men may escape from evil inclinations, for there can be no merit in evil inclinations. But this is difficult for men, whether humble or highly placed, without extreme effort and without renouncing everything else, and it is particularly difficult for the highly placed. 11th Major Rock Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: Thereis no gift comparable to the gift of Dhamma, the praise of Dhamma, the sharing of Dhamma, fellowship in Dhamma. And this is - good behaviour towards slave and servants, obedience to mother and father, generosity towards friends, acquaintances, and relatives and towards sramanas and brahmans, and abstention from killing living beings. Father, son, brother, master, friend, acquaintance, relative, and neighbour should say, 'this is good, this we should do'. By doing so, there is gain in this world, and in the next there is infinite merit, through the gift of Dhamma. 12th Major Rock Edict The Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, honours all sects and both ascetics and laymen, with gifts and various forms of recognition. But the Beloved of the Gods do not consider gifts or honour to be as important as the advancement of the essential doctrine of all sects. This progress of the essential doctrine takes many forms, but its basis is the control of one's speech, so as not to extoll one's own sect or disparage another's on unsuitable occasions, or at least to do so only mildly on certain occasions. On each occasion one should honour another man's sect, for by doing so one increases the influence of one's own sect and benefits that of the other man; whileby doing otherwise one diminishes the influence of one's own sect and harms the other man's. Again, whosoever honours his own sect or disparages that of another man, wholly out of devotion to his own, with a view to showing it in a favourable light, harms his own sect even more seriously. Therefore, concord is to be commanded, so that men may hear one anothers principles and obey them. This is the desire of the Beloved of the Gods, that all sects should be well-informed, and should teach that which is good, and that everywhere their adherents should be told, 'The Beloved of the Gods does not consider gifts or honour to be as important as the progress of the essential doctrine of all sects.' Many are concerned with this matter - the officers of Dhamma, the women's officers, the managers of the state farms, and other classes of officers. The result of this is the increased influence of one's own sect and glory to Dhamma. 13th Major Rock Edict When he had been consecrated eight years the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, conquered Kalinga. A hundred and fifty thousand people were deported, a hundred thousand were killed and many times that number perished. Afterwards, now that Kalinga was annexed, the Beloved of the Gods very earnestly practised Dhamma, desired Dhamma, and taught Dhamma, On conquering Kalinga the Beloved of the Gods felt remorse, for, when an independent country is conquered the slaughter, death, and deportation of the people is extremely grievous to the Belovedof the Gods, and weighs heavily on his mind. What is even more deplorable to the Beloved of the Gods, is that those who dwell there, whether brahmans, sramanas, or those of other sects, or householders who show obedience to their superiors, obedience to mother and father, obedience to their teachers and behave well and devotedly towards their friends, acquaintances, colleagues, relatives, slaves, and servants - all suffer violence, murder, and separation from their loved ones. Even those who are fortunate to have escaped, and whose love is undiminished [by the brutalizingeffect of war], suffer from the misfortunes of their friends, acquaintances, colleagues, and relatives. This participation of all men in suffering, weighs heavily on the mind of the Beloved of the Gods. Except among the Greeks, there is no land where the religious orders of brahmanas and sramanasare not to be found, and there is no land anywhere where men do not support one sect or another. Today if a hundredth or a thousandth part of those people who were killed or died or were deported when Kalinga was annexed were to suffer similarly, it would weigh heavily on the mind of the Beloved of the Gods, The Beloved of the Gods believes that one who does wrong should be forgiven as far as it is possible to forgive him. And the Beloved of the Gods conciliates the forest tribes of his empire, but he warns them that he has power even in his remorse and he asks them to repent, lest they be killed. For the Beloved of the Gods wishes that all beings should he unharmed, self-controlled, calm in mind, and gentle. The Beloved of the Gods considers victory by Dhamma to be the foremost victory. And moreover the Beloved of the Gods has gained this victory on all his frontiers to a distance of six hundred yojanas [i.e.about 1500 miles], where reigns the Greek king named Antiochus, and beyond the realm of that Antiochus in the lands of the four kings named Ptolemy, Antigonus, Magas, and Alexander; and in the south over the Colas and Pandyas as far as Ceylon. Likewise here in the imperial territories among the Greeks and the Kambojas, Nabhakas and Nabhapanktis, Bhojasand Pitinikas, Andhras and Parindas, everywhere the people follow the Beloved of the Gods' instructions in Dhamma. Even where the envoys of the Beloved of the Gods have not gone, people hear of his conduct according to Dhamma, his precepts and his instruction in Dhamma, and they follow Dhamma and will continue to follow it. What is obtained by this is victory everywhere, and everywhere victory is pleasant. This pleasure has been obtained through victory by Dhamma yet it is but a slight pleasure, for the Beloved of the Gods only looks upon that as important in its results which pertains to the next world. Ths inscription of Dhamma has been engraved so that any sons or great grandsons that I may have should not think of gaining newconquest, and in whatever victories they may gain should be satisfied with patienceand light punishment. They should only consider conquest by Dhamma to be a true conquest, and delight in Dhamma should be their whole delight, for this is of value in both this world and the next. From Suvarnagiri, on the order of His Highness the Prince, and the officers: good health to the officers of Isila who are to be instructed thus: Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, Asoka: I have been a Buddhist layman for more than two and a half years, but for a year I did not make much progress. Now for more than a year I have drawn closer to the Order and have become more ardent. The gods, who in India up to this time did not associate with men, now mingle with them, and this is the result of my efforts. Moreover this is not something to be obtained only by the great, but it is also open to the humble, if they are earnest and they can even reach heaven easily. This is the reason for this announcement that both humble and great should make progress and that the neighbouring peoples also should know that the progress is lasting, And this investment will increase and increase abundantly, and increase to half as much again. This matter must he inscribed here and elsewhere on the hills, and wherever there is a stone pillar it is to be engraved on that pillar. You must go out with this document throughout the length and breadth of your district. This announcement has been proclaimed while on tour; 256 nights have been spent on tour. Thus says the Beloved of the Gods. Whatever the Beloved of the Gods orders must be carried out in every respect. The rajuka [rural officer] is to be instructed and he will instruct the people of the countryside, assembling them with the sound of the drum; likewise the local chiefs. 'Obey mother and father, obey the teachers, have mercy on living beings; speak the truth. These virtues of Dhamma should be followed.' Thus you will instruct them on the orders of the Beloved of the Gods, and also you will ensure that elephant trainers, clerks, fortune-tellers, and Brahmans instruct their apprentices according to ancient tradition, that they should honour their masters.... righteous masters. In a family relatives must treat each other with respect. This is the ancient custom, conducive to long life, and thus it must be carried out. Carved by the engraver Capada. The Queen's Edict On the order of the Beloved of the Gods, the officers everywhere are to be instructed that whatever may be the gift of the second queen, whether a mango-grove, a monastery, an institution for dispensing charity or any other donation, it is to be counted to the credit of that queen ……the second queen, the mother of Tivala, Karuvaki. Barabar Cave Inscription I. The king Piyadassi, when he had been consecrated twelve years, gave the Banyan Cave to the Ajivikas. II. The king Piyadassi, when he had been consecrated twelve years, gave this cave on the Khalatika mountain to the Ajivikas. III. The king Piyadassi, consecrated since nineteen years. Kandahar Bilingual Rock Inscription [Greek Version], Ten years being completed king Piyadassi showed piety (i.e. Dhamma) to men. And from that time [onwards] he made men more pious. And all things prosper throughout the whole world. And the king refrains from [eating] living beings, and indeed other men and whosoever [were] the king's huntsmen and fishermen have ceased from hunting, and those who were without control [over themselves] have ceased as far as possible from their lack of [self-] control, and [have become] obedient to father and mother and to elders, such as was not the case before. And in future, doing all these things, they will live more agreeably and better than before. [Aramaic Version], Ten years having passed, our Lord the king Piyadassi, decided to instruct men in Dhamma. Since then, evil among men has diminished in the world. Among those who have suffered it has disappeared, and there is joy and peace in the whole world. And even in another matter, that which concerns eating, our Lord the king kills very few animal. Seeing this the rest of the people have also ceased from killing animals. Even those who catch fish, their activity has been prohibited. Similarly those that were without restraint have now learnt restraint. Obedience to mother and father, and elders, and conformity with the obligations implied in this, is now in practice. There are no more trials for men of piety. Thus the practise of Dhamma is of value to all men, and it will continue to be so. Minor Rock Inscriptions (Concerned specifically with Asoka's interest in Buddhism.) Bhabra Inscription The king of Magadha, Piyadassi, greets the Order and wishes it prosperity and freedom from care. You know Sirs, how deep is my respect for and faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Samgha [i.e. the Buddhist creed]. Sirs, whatever was spoken by the Lord Buddha was well spoken. And Sirs, allow me to tell you what I believe contributes to the long survival of the Buddhist Dhamma. These sermons on Dhamma, Sirs - the Excellence of the Discipline, the Lineage of the Noble One, the Future Fears, the Verses of,the Sage, the Sutra of Silence, the Question, of Upatissa, and the Admonition spoken by the Lord Buddha to Rahula on the subject of false speech - these sermons on the Dhamma, Sirs, I desire that many monks and nuns should hear frequently and meditate upon, and likewise laymen and laywomen. I am having this engraved Sirs, so that you may know what I desire. Rummindei Pillar Inscription The Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, when he had been consecrated twenty years, came in person find referenced the place where Buddha Sakyamuni was born. He caused a stone enclosure to be made and a stone pillar to be erected. As the Lord was born here in the village of Lumbini, he has exempted it from tax, and fixed its contribution [i.e. of grain] at one-eigth. Nigalisagar Pillar Inscription The Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, when he had been consecrated fourteen years, increased the stupa of Buddha Konakamana to double [its former size] ... And when he had been consecrated ... years he carne in person, .worshiped ... brought….. Schism Edict (a conflation of the various versions) The Beloved of the Gods orders the officers of Kausambi/Pataliputra] thus: No one is to cause dissension in the Order. The Order of monks and nuns has been united, and this unity should last for as long as my sons and great grandsons, and the moon and the sun. Whoever creates a schism in the Order, whether monk or nun, is to be dressed in white garments, and to be put in a place not inhabited by monks or nuns. For it is my wish that the Order should remain united and endure for long. This is to be made known to the Order of monks and the Order of nuns. Thus says the Beloved of the Gods: You must keep one copy of this document and place it in your meeting hall, and give one copy to the laity. The layman must come on every uposatha day [day of confession and penance] to endorse this order. The same applies to special officers who must also regularly attend the uposatha, and endorse this order, and make it known. Throughout your district you must circulate it exactly according to this text. You must also have this precise text circulated in all the fortress districts [under military control]. 1st Separate Edict (Dhauli and Jaugada). By order of the Beloved of the Gods: the officers and city magistrates at Tosali / Sarnapa are to be instructed thus: Whatever I approve of, that I desire either to achieve by taking action or to obtain by effective means. This is what I consider the chief method in this matter, and these are my instructions to you. You are in charge of many thousands of living beings. You should gain the affection of men. All men are my children, and just as I desire for my children that they should obtain welfare and happiness both in this world and the next, the same do I desire for all men. But you do not realize how far this principle goes - possibly one man among you may realize it, but even he only in part and not entirely, Reflect on it well even those of you who are well placed. Often a man suffers imprisonment or torture and then is released from prison, without reason, and many other people suffer further. You should strive to practice impartiality. But it cannot be practiced by one possessing any of these faults -jealousy, shortness of temper, harshness, rashness, obstinacy, idleness, or slackness. You should wish to avoid such faults. The root of all this is to be even-tempered and not rash in your work. He who is slack will not act, and in your official functions you must strive, act, and work. So he who approves this should say to you, 'Think of clearing the debt- thus and thus, does the Beloved of the Gods instruct.' There is great advantage in conforming to this instruction and great loss in not conforming to it. For by disregarding it you will gain neither heaven nor the favor of the king. Why do 1 devote my mind to this matter so extensively? Because by conforming you will reach heaven and will discharge your debt to me. This edict is to he proclaimed on the eighth day of the star Tisya, and at intervals between the Tisya-days it is to be read aloud, even to a single person. By doing this you may be able to conform to my instructions. This inscription has been engraved here in order that the city magistrates should at all times ace to it that men are never imprisoned or tortured without good reason. And for this purpose, I shall send out on tour every five years, an officer who is not severe or harsh; who, having investigated this matter. . . , shall see that they carry out my instructions. The prince at Ujjain shall send out a similar group of officers, but at intervals not exceeding three years. Similarly at Taxila when the officers go out on tour they shall investigate this, without neglecting their normal duties and shall carry out the king's instructions. 2nd Separate Edict By order of the Beloved of the Gods. At Tosali the prince and the officers at Samapa the officers charged with announcing the royal decrees, are to be ordered thus: Whatever I approve of, that I desire either to achieve by taking action or to obtain by some effective means. This is what I consider the chief method in this matter, and these are my instructions to you. All men are my children and just as I desire for my children that they should obtain welfare and happiness both in this world and the next, the same do I desire for all men. If the unconquered peoples on my borders ask what is my will, they should be made to understand that this is my will with regard to them --the king desires that they should have no trouble on his account, should trust in him, and should have in their dealings with him only happiness and no sorrow. They should understand that the king will forgive them as far as they can be forgiven, and that through him they should follow Dhamma and gain this world and the next. For this purpose I instruct you, that having done so I may discharge my debt to them, by making known to you my will, my resolve and my firm promise. By these actions, my work will advance, and they will be reassured and will realize that the king is like a father, and that he feels for them as for himself, for they are like his own children to him. My couriers and special officers will be in contact with you, instructing you and making known to you my will, my resolve, and my firm promise. For you are able to give the frontier people confidence, welfare, and happiness in this world and the next. Doing this you will reach heaven and help me discharge my debt to my people. This inscription has been engraved here for this purpose - that the Officers shall at all times attend to the conciliation of the people of the frontiers and to promoting Dhamma among them. This edict is to be proclaimed every four months on the day of the star Tisya; it may optionally be proclaimed from time to time in the interval between Tisya-days, and on occasions may be proclaimed even to a single person. By doing this you will be able to conform to my instructions. 1st Pillar Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: When I had been consecrated for twenty-six years, 1 had this inscription of Dhamma engraved. It is hard to obtain happiness in this world and the next without extreme love of Dhamma, much vigilance, much obedience, much fear of sin, and extreme energy. But, through my instructions, care for Dhamma and love of Dhamma have grown from day to day, and will continue to grow. My subordinates too, whether high or low or of middle station, endorse it and practise it sufficiently to win over the wavering, and likewise do the frontier official For this is my principle: to protect through Dhamma, to administer affairs according to Dhamma, to please the people with Dhamma, to guard the empire with Dhamma. 2nd Pillar Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: Dhamma is good. And what is Dhamma? It is having few faults and many good deeds, mercy, charity, truthfulness, and purity. I have given the gift of insight in various forms. I have conferred many benefits on man, animals, birds, and fish, even to saving their lives, and I have done many other commendable deeds. I have had this inscription of Dhamma engraved that men may conform to it and that it may endure. He who conforms will do well. 3rd Pillar Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: One only notices one's good deeds, thinking, 'I have done good', but on the other hand one does not notice one's wicked deeds, thinking, 'I have done evil', or 'this is indeed a sin'. Now, to be aware of this is something really difficult. But nevertheless one should notice this and think, 'Cruelty, harshness, anger, pride, and envy, these are indeed productive of sin.' let them not be the cause of my fall. And this one should especially notice, thinking, 'This is important to my happiness in this world; that, on the other hand, for the next.' 4th Pillar Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: When I had been consecrated twenty-six years I had this inscription on Dhamma engraved. My rajukas [rural officers) are appointed over many hundred thousands of people. In judgment and punishment I have given them independent authority, so that the rajukas may fulfill their functions calmly and fearlessly and may promote the welfare and happiness of the country people and benefit them. They will learn what makes for happiness and unhappiness ,and together with those devoted to Dhamma, they will admonish the country people that they may obtain happiness in this world and the next. The rajukas are eager to obey me and they will likewise obey my envoys who know my wishes. These likewise will admonish [the erring rajukas] so that they will be able to give me satisfaction. Just as one entrusts his child to an experienced nurse, and is confident that the experienced nurse is able to care for the child satisfactorily, so my rajukas have been appointed for the welfare and happiness of the country people. In order that they may fulfill their functions fearlessly, confidently, and cheerfully, I have given them independent authority in judgment and punishment. But it is desirable that there should be uniformity in judicial procedure and punishment. This is my instruction from now on. Men who are imprisoned or sentenced to death are to be given three days respite. Thus their relations may plead for their lives, or, if there is no one to plead for them, they may make donations or undertake a fast for a better rebirth in the next life. For it is my wish that they should gain the next world. And among the people various practices of Dhamma are increasing, such as self-control and the distribution of charity. 5th Pillar Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: When I had been consecrated for twenty-six years I forbade the killing of the following species of animals, namely: parrots, mainas, red-headed ducks [?], cakravaka-geese, swans, nandi-mukhas [birds encountered in rice fields?], pigeons, bats, ants, tortoises, boneless fish, vedaveyakas, pupulas of the Ganges [fish?], skate, porcupines, squirrels, deer, lizards, domesticated animals, rhinoceroses, white pigeons, domestic pigeon and all quadrupeds which are of no utility and are not eaten. She goats, ewes, and sows which are with young or are giving suck are not to be killed, neither are their young up to the age of six months. Capons must not be made. Chaff which contains living things must not be set on fire. Forests must not be burned in order to kill living things or without any good reason. An animal must not be fed with another animal. On the first full moon days of the three four-monthly seasons, and for three days when the full moon falls on the star Tisya, and the fourteenth and fifteenth of the bright fortnight, and the first of the dark, and regularly on fast days, fish are not to be caught or sold. And on these same days in the elephant-park and fisheries, other classes of animals likewise must not be killed. On the eighth, fourteenth, and fifteenth days of the fortnight, on the days of the star Tisya and Punarvasu, on the three first full moons of the four-monthly seasons, and on festival days, bulls, goats rams, boars, and other animals which it is customary to castrate are not to be castrated. On the days of the stars Tisya and Punarvasu, on the first full moon days of the four-monthly seasons, and on the fortnights following them, cattle and horses are not to be branded. In the period [from my consecration] to [the anniversary on which] I had been consecrated twenty-six years, twenty-five releases of prisoners have been made. 6th Pillar Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi. When I had been consecrated for twelve years I had an inscription of Dhamma, engraved for the welfare and happiness of the world. Whoever follows it should obtain progress in Dhamma in various ways. Thus do I provide for the welfare and happiness of the world - in the same way as I bring happiness to my relatives,both close and distant and work for it, so do I provide for all sects. I honour all sects with various kinds of reverence, and I consider visiting them in person to be most important. When I had been consecrated for twenty-six years I had this inscription of Dhamma engraved. 7th Pillar Edict Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi. In the past, kings searched for means whereby people's interest in Dhamma would increase, but the people did not respond accordingly with a greater devotion to Dhamma. Hence the Beloved of the God the king Piyadassi says. This idea occurred to me. In the past kings sought to make the people progress ... but they did not. . . How then could people be made to conform to Dhamma and increase their interest in it? . . . How could I elevate them through devotion to Dhamma? I shall make them hear proclamations of Dhamma, and instruct them with the knowledge of Dhamma. When they have heard this, the people will endorse it and will be elevated, and will progress greatly in Dhamma .. For this reason there have been proclamations of Dhamma and many instructions of Dhamma were ordered, and my administrators were appointed over many people; they will admonish them and explain Dhamma to them. The rajukas [rural officers) are appointed over many hundreds of thousands of people; I have instructed them duly to encourage those people devoted to Dhamma. Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: With this same idea in mind I have made pillars of Dhamma, appointed officers of Dhamma, and made proclamations of Dhamma. Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: On the roads I have had banyan trees planted, which will give shade to beasts and men, I have had mango-groves planted and I have had wells dug and rest houses built at every eight kos. And I have had many watering places made every-where for the use of beasts and men. But this benefit is important, and indeed the world has enjoyed attention in many ways from former kings as well as from me. But I have done these things in order that my people might conform to Dhamma. Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: My officers of Dhamma are busy in many matters of public benefit, they are busy among members of all sects, both ascetics and householders. I have appointed some to concern themselves with the Buddhist Order, with brahmans and Ajivikas, with the Jainas .... and with various sects. There are many categories of officers with a variety of duties, but my officers of Dhamma are busy with the affairs of these and other sects. Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi.: These and many other chief officers are busy with the distribution of charity both on my behalf and on that of my queens; and in all my harem, in various forms, they . . . assist in the recognition of virtuous deeds, here and in all regions. And I have ordered them to be concerned with the distribution of charity, on behalf of my sons, and of the other princes, that they may glory in Dhamma and conform to it. Thus the glory of Dhamma will increase throughout the world, and it will be endorsed in the form of mercy, charity, truthfulness, purity, gentleness, and virtue. Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: Whatever good deeds I have done, the world has consented to them and followed them. Thus obedience to mother and father, obedience to teachers, deference to those advanced in age, and regard for brahmans and sramanas, the poor and wretched, slaves and servants, have increased and will increase. Thus speaks the Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi: The advancement of Dhamma amongst men has been achieved through two means, legislation and persuasion. But of these two, legislation has been less effective, and persuasion more so. I have proclaimed through legislation for instance that certain species of animals are not to be killed, and other such ideas. But men have increased their adherence to Dhamma by being persuaded not to insure living beings and not to take life. I have done all this so that among my sons and great grandsons and as long as the sun and moon endure, men may follow Dhamma. For by following it one gains this world and the next. When I had been consecrated twenty-seven years I had this inscription of Dhamma engraved. The Beloved of the Gods speaks thus. This inscription of Dhamma is to be engraved wherever there are stone pillars or stone slabs, that it may last long. source:http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/asoka1.html As i said, find me a stronger policy-maker in Indian history from ARCHAEOLOGICAL/FIRST HAND EVIDENCE. Edited January 5, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda-esque Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Ghanta should worry about Bengal rather than Maharashtra.We love our icons even if Waste Bengal has forgotten theirs. mishra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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