Kyle Abbott to retire from International cricket for Kolpak deal

[putrevus]

18 minutes ago, Stumped said:

You're blaming the ECB for not stopping it by breaking international employment laws rather than South Africa for having racially discriminative quotas?

What was so racial about the white fast bowler from Zimbabwe leaving for county cricket.What was so racial about Boyd Rankin leaving Ireland team to join England team just before Ashes, what was so racial about Ireland's best spinner leaving their national team for county cricket.

 

What was so racial about Eoin Morgan leaving Ireland to captain England. If Kyle Abbot was a solitary case then it could be blamed on racial SA quota system.The truth is ECB/counties have been poaching talents of other countries for years, in 1970s and 80s it was from WI, heck they even have scout teams in Caribbean to spot talents who could play for England Chris Jordan is one such player.

 

I never had any problem in them doing it, players who are going there are going on their own for greener pastures, but when ECB/British media make IPL as some monster which is swallowing world cricket I have huge problem.

 

Nobody in IPL had put any gun to any player to play IPL they all are playing because it is paying them better so why the heck is ECB/ British media making it to be some monster which is destroying the cricket, reality is IPL is making their early summer schedule irrelevant and IPL is becoming so huge day by day and thus making ECB less secure.

Edited January 3, 2017 by putrevus

[putrevus]

This strictest rules which you are talking about have been put recently since ECB is seeing the affects of it going for shortcuts has ruined their grass root level cricket and how talented home born kids are shunning cricket for other sports.

 

Just because SA is playing early next year does not mean that early English summer is scheduled for weaker teams just to make sure their broadcast partners are satisfied.

[sandeep]

37 minutes ago, putrevus said:

What was so racial about the white fast bowler from Zimbabwe leaving for county cricket.What was so racial about Boyd Rankin leaving Ireland team to join England team just before Ashes, what was so racial about Ireland's best spinner leaving their national team for county cricket.

 

What was so racial about Eoin Morgan leaving Ireland to captain England. If Kyle Abbot was a solitary case then it could be blamed on racial SA quota system.The truth is ECB/counties have been poaching talents of other countries for years, in 1970s and 80s it was from WI, heck they even have scout teams in Caribbean to spot talents who could play for England Chris Jordan is one such player.

 

I never had any problem in them doing it, players who are going there are going on their own for greener pastures, but when ECB/British media make IPL as some monster which is swallowing world cricket I have huge problem.

 

Nobody in IPL had put any gun to any player to play IPL they all are playing because it is paying them better so why the heck is ECB/ British media making it to be some monster which is destroying the cricket, reality is IPL is making their early summer schedule irrelevant and IPL is becoming so huge day by day and thus making ECB less secure.

+++++1.  

 

Nailed it.  England have been poaching players from "the commonwealth" for decades.  

 

It took 5+ seasons of IPL cricket for the realization to dawn that English cricket is the loser for not having its players participate.  Its galling to the ECB that "their invention" has led to India becoming the heart of modern T20 cricket.  

 

Its such a bungle that after so many years, IPL and Big Bash have established themselves so well in club T20 cricket, even CPL has carved out a decent niche for itself.  But England still doesn't have its act together.  And as time goes by, it will find it increasingly harder to carve out a window for itself in the international calendar.    A massive own goal in the classic British fashion.  With the stronger currency, if ECB had set up a league 5 years ago, it would have definitely been a competitor to the IPL.  Now, it will have to work its way up to do better than the "Ram Slam".  

[G_B_]

Stumped the issue is the British media which says IPL is reducing importance of international cricket ignoring what the counties do.

Sent from my Wileyfox Swift using Tapatalk

[sandeep]

34 minutes ago, Stumped said:

No need for these snide comments against it, the T20 Blast is already clearly well ahead of the Ram Slam in terms of attendance and foreign interest and participation.

 

No need to get defensive about a fan's opinion.  Harsh reality is that for passionate motivated fans of cricket, rankings of T20 tournaments is - IPL, daylight, Big Bash, CPL, and then the others - be it Ram slam, BPL, whatever the ECB is putting together, etc.  And that's a massive failure by the ECB.  They had a lot going for them - early adopters of the format, deep pockets due to currency purchasing power, a tried and tested pipeline and infrastructure to import foreign players - and in spite of all of these advantages, they are still pottering around trying to figure out a balance between vested interests in domestic cricket and ended up losing billions in revenue.  And that is no exaggeration.  England should have put together a lean T20 tournament along the lines of the IPL with a fixed number of international players per team, with a fixed calendar - short and sweet.  They would have generated so much money as well as resurrecting interest in cricket and making it a popular sport for athletic kids with ambition.  

 

I don't know that much details about English cricket, but from an interested outsider's perspective, cricket administration in England is foolishly provincial, stuck in the past, and keeps wasting its resources.  That's both from a business of cricket standpoint, as well as talent and execution on the field.  It may sound harsh, but I'm saying it just to "bash the pommies", just calling it like I see it.  

 

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Stumped said:

This is nonsense, 2 or 3 people born in a foreign country (quite often with some kind of English parentage anyway) playing in an England team is not what's putting kids off playing cricket at grassroots level.

 

This is also complete rubbish manipulated to suit your agenda, the stronger team had typically toured later in the summer for years before the IPL came along. Probably due to the likelihood of slightly better weather.

 

Honestly believe the T20 blast is nearly the best it can be right now. You cut down the teams and suddenly you lose a huge amount of supporters and crowds from the areas you cut. Get the games on terrestrial and suddenly a huge amount of the ECB budget from Sky is lost. There's not really much room for maneuvering and I'd be interested to hear your suggestions for it.

 

No need for these snide comments against it, the T20 Blast is already clearly well ahead of the Ram Slam in terms of attendance and foreign interest and participation.

 

 

History is littered with England poaching players from other countries, if you are unsure go back and check. If ECB does anything it is good for test cricket and cricket in general but when other boards do it they are killing cricket .

 

There is no agenda here go back and check last decade and stronger teams are always playing late in summer not just here but in Australia also. SA happened to play in Australia early because they also wanted they also wanted their own Boxing day and New year Tests.West Indies was not available till late because of their CPL commitment and that is only reason why SA is playing first this English summer.

 

Boyd Rankin was drafted into England side for one reason only, to defend Ashes down under in 2009 as Andy flower wanted tall fast bowlers.It is joke that this guy plays for Ireland retires and then makes test debut for England but after he is discarded he goes back to Ireland and plays for them again.Is this some franchise cricket where players are allowed to move as they wish? who is responsible for this fiasco , it is ECB only .

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by putrevus

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Stumped said:

And go check the decade before that, the stronger team was still tending to play in the latter half of the summer even before t20 was event a concept let alone the IPL. It's got nothing to do with the IPL.

 

That's exactly what it is right now/what it has been in the past. You keep criticizing it yet I can't actually see you making a single logical suggestion on how it could be improved from it's current structure?

I never said stronger teams playing in later stages of summer has to do with IPL. All I said was ECB is worried about IPL making early summer schedule meaningless. 

You were talking as if I was making an argument to suit my agenda.The fact is IPL is making early ECB summer utterly meaningless with players flying in days before their matches and we will see what IPL will do to SA team this year.

There is one simple solution do not poach players from other countries once any player plays for another country it does not matter if it is  under 16. ECB should be off limits to that player once players realize even after qualifying if they are not selected for England team they will stop using that route.

[sandeep]

16 minutes ago, Stumped said:

And go check the decade before that, the stronger team was still tending to play in the latter half of the summer even before t20 was event a concept let alone the IPL. It's got nothing to do with the IPL.

 

That's exactly what it is right now/what it has been in the past. You keep criticizing it yet I can't actually see you making a single logical suggestion on how it could be improved from it's current structure?

How long does the current tournament last?  How many teams?  Biggest issue is that there are too many teams and the schedule isn't compact enough.  That's what I meant with a "fixed number of teams" and "short and sweet".    

[sandeep]

16 minutes ago, Stumped said:

Not picking a person who's perfectly qualified and considered the best person for a job (a job that they want) because of their place of birth is called discrimination and it's illegal.

That's after the fact justification.  And poaching is absolutely the right word for what England have done.  Andrew Symonds is on record stating how he was wooed/recruited to play for England, but decided to stay in Australia.   Kevin Pietersen didn't just walk away from South Africa as a shot in the dark.  He knew full well that there is a clearly demarcated path for him to international selection for England.  

 

England, if they chose, could very easily make it harder for mercenaries to get selected in the English international team, but they do not.  And that's not a crime.  You are right, people should have the freedom to ply their skills and trade.  But let's not brush it under the carpet and justify it under euphemisms and "freedom".  

 

Wonder if an engineer or a plumber or a car mechanic will find it as easy to emigrate to England if he's a top-quality candidate, as international-quality cricketers do.  In the former case, immigration and employment policies are structured to make the path difficult.  When it comes to cricketers, that's simply not the case.  

 

England actively choose to benefit from economic migration of cricket players from other countries.  You don't like to hear it called poaching, but that's actually what it is.  Its what the US did with Cuban refugees - they didn't exactly solicit Cubans to go on dinky rafts in the Caribbean, but made it easy and legal for Cubans to obtain legal residency once they managed to land on US soil.  Unlike the Mexicans or anybody else who managed to enter US Soil without proper paperwork.  Its plausible deniability.  And it does not hold water amongst people who know the realities.

 

[sandeep]

15 minutes ago, Stumped said:

8 weeks including knockouts this upcoming season, the usual 18 county teams.

 

What teams will you be cutting then/how will you decide which to cut?

18 teams is way too many.  8 is probably the right number.  How is not for me to say - there are too many stakeholders involved, and maybe the IPL model - where it was completely de-linked from existing domestic cricket setup - is a way to go.  Although, from a long-term perspective I don't think that's ideal.  In fact, I think Indian cricket would do well to somehow link back the IPL Franchises to existing domestic teams - because the financial incentives for players going forward are just too powerful for them to invest their time and bodies in the rigors of domestic cricket.   

 

Maybe a system where the top 8 domestic teams in one season get to participate in the T20 "festival" next year, or call it whatever you like.  This way, teams and players are incentivized to participate and perform in domestic cricket and at the same time, you don't get the bloat into the T20 tournament.  Actually, the more I think about that, it makes a lot of sense.  

Edited January 3, 2017 by sandeep

[putrevus]

36 minutes ago, Stumped said:

Poaching is the wrong word for it. History is littered with countries having their own issues/people having their own family links causing players to legitimately to move overseas to play who then happen to be good enough to play for England and make their own choice to do so.

No one is accusing ECB of doing anything illegal but what they have been doing is wrong.Playing cricket/sport for a nation is highest honor it should belong to players who are exclusive to that country only.A player like Jennings plays for South Africa in under 19 to get noticed by counties and gets selected by one one of them then  turns around and waits for four years to play for England is so wrong on so many levels.

 

 To get gold medals by making athletes citizens is nothing but a disgrace in my view it cheapens whole spirit of playing for country.If ECB adopts a policy , once a player wears any other national uniform at any level he is off limits then this migration of talent will not happen.

Edited January 3, 2017 by putrevus

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

No one is accusing ECB of doing anything illegal but what they have been doing is wrong.Playing cricket/sport for a nation is highest honor it should belong to players who are exclusive to that country only.A player like Jennings plays for South Africa in under 19 to get noticed by counties and gets selected by one one of them then  turns around and waits for four years to play for England is so wrong on so many levels.

 

 To get gold medals by making athletes citizens is nothing but a disgrace in my view it cheapens whole spirit of playing for country.If ECB adopts a policy , once a player wears any other national uniform at any level he is off limits then this migration of talent will not happen.

Exactly.  Selection policies could be structured in order to discourage such mercenary migration.  But in fact, reality is the opposite.  Again, its not illegal, but to claim that its not done due to vested interest, and pontificate legalisms in the name of freedom is either naive or hypocritical.   

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, Stumped said:

 

Good luck persuading a court that not employing someone who's best suited for a job because of their past place of employment and place of birth is perfectly fine.

 

It's also worth noting that Abbott is not coming here to play international cricket and neither are any of the other kolpaks. They're coming here for domestic cricket.

So Kevin Pietersen moved to England because he wanted to play domestic cricket?  How many others born and raised in South Africa have played for England?  Why is it so difficult for you to accept the obvious?  Again, nobody's saying its illegal.  But  to deny that England have happily gone along with economic migration of cricketers, and facilitated it in the past, is willful blindness.  

[Vilander]

If SA can manage to get black players playing in the same level and if white played immigrate to Eng to play there and Irish county players go play for Ireland because of lack of chances then it would not be bad actually. You get a good SA team as always, good Eng team and then a good Irish team. 

 

This is the most positive way to look at this situation.

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, Stumped said:

Pietersen didn't come here as a kolpak, he came here originally as a teenager with his British passport through his English mother.

 

I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick, I'm saying to put a blanket ban on anyone foreign born playing for England would be illegal.

Nobody's saying that England should blanket ban - as you pointed out, that would clearly be illegal.  The point is that England in the past greased the path, and made it easy, because it was beneficial.  

 

 

[putrevus]

 

15 minutes ago, Stumped said:

 

Good luck persuading a court that not employing someone who's best suited for a job because of their past place of employment and place of birth is perfectly fine.

 

It's also worth noting that Abbott is not coming here to play international cricket and neither are any of the other kolpaks. They're coming here for domestic cricket.

There is no court in world which can do anything if ECb chooses not to select any player.Selection to a national team is very subjective and cannot be proved otherwise in any court .

 

Mohd Azaruddin's cricket ban was lifted by supreme court and he was allowed to play for India if BCCI chose to select him but they did not select him.Where as PCB selected Mohd Amir choose his talent and overlooked morality .

 

If counties/ECB are so magnanimous they can increase no of international players who can be allowed to play for them. That way players like Abbott have options and do not have choose between playing for his country and county cricket.

Edited January 3, 2017 by putrevus

[putrevus]

12 minutes ago, Stumped said:

 

Doubt it was a coincidence that Jennings ended up playing for the county a couple of miles from where his mother grew up and has family based, he presumably had been playing club cricket there before/whilst playing for South Africa U19. Jennings also avoided the new 7 year regulation by a matter of weeks.

So why he played for SA under 19 and not England under 19 then.

[sandeep]

Man, this Stumped fella is on a mission to justify the mercenary imports.  Protest too much!!  :)

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Stumped said:

Because that's where he was originally based and born. Interestingly enough though I've just found scorecards of him playing for Northamptonshire Academy (a county) before he'd even played for Gauteng U19 let alone South Africa U19.

Either you do not want to understand the principle involved or you are not understanding it.It is very simple ball is in ECB's court they can choose not to select them.Same applies to counties too.They are looking to get better talent which is not wrong as I told you in my first message but I have big problem when these hypocrites using their media turn around and push the blame on IPL or the test cricket demise or anything wrong with sport on someone else.

 

All thru their existence ECB along CA  have ever cared is about themselves.They start moaning and groaning if something is not in their favor or they are overtaken by some one else.

Edited January 3, 2017 by putrevus

[mancalledsting]

I think the white talent drain secondary to quota system in South Africa appears overhyped: Ntini, Amla, Philander and Rabada (potentially) are some of the greatest players South Africa have ever had. I don't think the likes of Rilee Rousouw, Colin Ingram, Chris Morris, Morne Van Wyk, Richard Levi come under the category of potential world beaters....

 

Kyle Abbot is a good player but his progress was held back by Rabada, Philander, Morkel, Steyn and Marchant de Lange. Three of those players are white and the two coloured ones are exceptional talents. South Africa traditionally had a fear of playing in Australia, but Philander and Rabada have been instrumental in last two succesive test series victories away from home against arch nemesis Australia (some of the greatest test victories in South Africa's cricket history)......no evidence of quota system here