Umesh Yadav : An enigma

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

If a pacer bowls in good areas with pace, bounce and even small movements.....he is bound to pick up wickets in test cricket.

 

Before the England series, Umesh was not doing that consistently enough.

 

Now that we are seeing accuracy, bounce and even yorkers ( in ODIs )   introduced in his repertoire, it would be short-sighted to drop him after investing in him for so long.  It would be like Captain Mallory giving up the mission after climbing that steep mountain in the Guns of Navarone.

Except Umesh cannot do it consistently. In tests, you have to build pressure to get wickets or bowl consistently with a few magic balls in between. Umesh is a crap bowler with a few magic balls in between, thats it.

The reason i say give up on Umesh, is because he is near his ceiling/already at his ceiling and he still sucks. His accuracy isn't going to improve. But give it another few years and his only saving grace, his pace- will start to drop.

 

And please- i know you want a fast bowler in our team, but don't insult the rest by saying we are seeing accuracy from Yadav. we are not. He is still a sprayer who cannot put six balls together to quiet the batsmen. Nor does he pick up a wicket without conceding over 40 runs on average.

He is our Mohammed Sami. Fast but useless.

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

i support umesh and i am aware he has failed , he was given a chance to change the culture of ind pace bowling to have quicker fitter pacers and the price paid was worth it rather than to have short term success with typical ind medium pace,which you can always go back to .

This is a very important point.  India did not have a pace bowling culture and we were an unique nation in the way that most seamers just did not want to bowl with effort.  Most seamers were floaty medium-pacers and this resulted in us not producing strike bowlers in the true sense of the term. Even newbie teams like Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka in the '80s had quicker bowlers than us.  Slowly but surely, we saw this changing but a new problem came up, with some pacers dropping pace after getting in the 11 and creating an identity.

 

By sending the message across, in the last 3 or 4 years, that pacers would get a much longer run if they are willing to bowl with effort and pace, we have seen many many seamers in India changing their bowling style and trying to hit the deck hard and generate pace.  This includes seamers like Pankaj Singh, Shardul Thakur, Aniket Chaudhuri, Deepak Chahar etc.. Many new pacers are bowling with much more effort.

 

Slowly, we have seen good pacers with pace and bounce coming through as a result of this policy of promoting quick pacers who bowl with effort.....like Shami and Bumrah....even Ishant has become better in tests and  Pandya has also combined accuracy with pace / bounce in the recent past.

 

Not all decisions with foresight are palatable in the short-term and there is some collateral damage too....but, if you want some change in the system then tough decisions have to be taken.

Edited January 18, 2017 by express bowling

[Cricketics]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

This is a very important point.  India did not have a pace bowling culture and we were an unique nation in the way that most seamers just did not want to bowl with effort.  Most seamers were floaty medium-pacers and this resulted in us not producing strike bowlers in the Not all decisions with foresight are palatable in the short-term and there is some collateral damage too....but, if you want some change in the system then tough decisions have to be taken.

 

First up, dropping Umesh doesn't destroy any fast bowling culture.

 

And that culture and tough decision making can continue by not keeping Umesh in ODI's for now and replacing him in the squad with another fast seamer. Even Australia plays Hazlewood in ODI's and rotates. He is not extremely fast. Also Faulkner is a bowler who is suppose to bowl in death for Australia and he isn't extremley fast either.

 

You can have few fast bowlers and have a good line and length bowler and mix it up and keep them in one single squad of 15 and rotate them so that the fast bowling culture you are talking about is continued and maintained. 

[rkt.india]

21 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

He is our Mohammed Sami. Fast but useless.

 

Sami was a decent ODI bowler, averages 29 with ER less than 5 and SR 35. While he is worse as a test bowler with average 52 after 36 tests.

[express bowling]

15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Except Umesh cannot do it consistently. In tests, you have to build pressure to get wickets or bowl consistently with a few magic balls in between. Umesh is a crap bowler with a few magic balls in between, thats it.

 

That is what has changed in the last test series vs England and the ODI series vs NZ.....seems like you have not watched them properly.

 

Infact, Umesh has been far more accurate in test matches starting from the SA series in 2015.  He has an ER of 2.83 starting from that time compared to his ER  of 4.31 before that

 

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
unfiltered	26	50	709.5	123	2648	68	5/93	7/103	38.94	3.73	62.6	1	0	Profile
filtered	11	22	280.5	69	797	20	4/41	5/41	39.85	2.83	84.2	0	0

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/376116.html?class=1;spanmin1=05+Nov+2015;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
unfiltered	2011-2016	26	50	709.5	123	2648	68	5/93	7/103	38.94	3.73	62.6	1	0	Profile
filtered	2011-2015	15	28	429.0	54	1851	48	5/93	7/103	38.56	4.31	53.6	1	0

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/376116.html?class=1;spanmax1=04+Nov+2015;spanmin1=05+Nov+2010;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings

 

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

 

First up, dropping Umesh doesn't destroy any fast bowling culture.

 

 

I am not speaking specifically about Umesh here.

 

But, when domestic seamers and even international ones see that  pace is giving them longer runs in international matches, then they will always try to bowl with effort and pace. A few of them would be good bowlers too and they can then be picked.....like Shami and  Bumrah.   We have seen Bhuvi improving his speed from 2014 and he has become a better test bowler too. Pandya has become a  much quicker bowler while improving his accuracy.

 

This is the effect I am talking about.

[Cricketics]

1 minute ago, MultiB48 said:

aus has the pace culture ,if we had it i wouldn't have advocated for umesh, the proper comparison would be to back an attacking spinner for eng or aus,like warne said aus conditions dont help spinners and their captains dont back their spinners enough and keep going back to the pacers so they struggle to produce enough spinners.

But Umesh is not establishing any pace culture by doing what he is doing in ODI's. He could probably do by just sticking to test cricket for now and being consistent there.

 

Some important things:-

 

How do you develop a culture?

By giving chances to performing players so the kids can watch such players succeed and try to emulate them and follow the all the good things they are doing

 

What does India play more? One day cricket and not test cricket. So kids watching ODI's and twenty20 should see a fast bowler who is not throwing away the games or losing India the games. If kids watch someone losing games for India, there is nonway they are wanting to be like such player or thinking of taking up fast bowling but might consider being Jason Roy like batsman instead who is scoring against the bowler. 

 

Who do kids like emulating? Someone who does good, extremely good and that is how culture develops. People like Zaheer Khan because he was good for us in India's later in the career. Kids can't emulte or hope or think of idolising Umesh with the way he is bowling right now in ODI's. Here goes the bowling culture if we continue with him in LOI's. 

[express bowling]

^

 

New kids will idolize and emulate the good bowlers with pace who have come up in recent times.....like Shami and Bumrah.

 

If we did not have this  " policy " of pace needed ....we would have seen Shami and Bumrah bowl 10 k slower and  then they would have been less effeective.....has happened with many a  " good "  pacer in the past as that was our bowling culture

Edited January 18, 2017 by express bowling

[Cricketics]

9 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I am not speaking specifically about Umesh here.

 

But, when domestic seamers and even international ones see that  pace is giving them longer runs in international matches, then they will always try to bowl with effort and pace. A few of them would be good bowlers too and they can then be picked.....like Shami and  Bumrah.   We have seen Bhuvi improving his speed from 2014 and he has become a better test bowler too. Pandya has become a  much quicker bowler while improving his accuracy.

 

This is the effect I am talking about.

Those players as they mature are bound to get faster. I will give players like Pandya and Bhuvi credit of improving pace just by wanting to do well in international cricket.

 

Those playing currently in Ranji will remain similar to what they are currently in terms of pace unless there are bowlers who are below 24-25 who can still do a good deal of work to increase their pace. It is for the future Ranji bowlers we have to develop the culture now for. 

 

Hence if you read my post above, I said it is inportant to bring new pacers too so young kids can follow them. We can start by establishing culture for future kids who are under 19 etc or are 15-16 year old. If they see new Indian seamers coming, and see seamers bowling fast and suceeding, they will like to emulate such bowlers. If we give new bowlers chance, they will see and their interest would increase and the kids would see themselves playing for India one day as fast bowlers. 

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

This is a very important point.  India did not have a pace bowling culture and we were an unique nation in the way that most seamers just did not want to bowl with effort.  Most seamers were floaty medium-pacers and this resulted in us not producing strike bowlers in the true sense of the term. Even newbie teams like Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka in the '80s had quicker bowlers than us.  Slowly but surely, we saw this changing but a new problem came up, with some pacers dropping pace after getting in the 11 and creating an identity.

 

By sending the message across, in the last 3 or 4 years, that pacers would get a much longer run if they are willing to bowl with effort and pace, we have seen many many seamers in India changing their bowling style and trying to hit the deck hard and generate pace.  This includes seamers like Pankaj Singh, Shardul Thakur, Aniket Chaudhuri, Deepak Chahar etc.. Many new pacers are bowling with much more effort.

 

Slowly, we have seen good pacers with pace and bounce coming through as a result of this policy of promoting quick pacers who bowl with effort.....like Shami and Bumrah....even Ishant has become better in tests and  Pandya has also combined accuracy with pace / bounce in the recent past.

 

Not all decisions with foresight are palatable in the short-term and there is some collateral damage too....but, if you want some change in the system then tough decisions have to be taken.

By your argument, it stands to reason then, that the culture has changed, with the emergence of 'bowlers who are willing to bowl fast', in the form of Shami, Bumrah, Pandya etc.

So the 'promote pace for pace's sake' experiment can end. Because the ultimate objective is, we need GOOD bowlers. Nobody would give a crap about pace if India was chock-full with Mohammed Asifs of the world : he wasn't fast, just got astonishing cut off the pitch. In the real world, sure, it helps to prioritize pace, because as we can see, highly effective military medium bowlers like Asif are rare and highly effective fast bowlers, though still rare, are more common than Asifs of the world.

 

But from now on, it should be emphasis on complete bowler : bowlers who can bowl to plan, bowlers who can adapt, bowlers who can be effective in their plan B, which is to contain & not give away too many runs.

Right now, we have a crop of pacers with healthy amount of speed. 

It is unrealistic to think that we can create a culture of fast bowling by eventually finding the fast bowling genius-cum-physical freak to finally fulfill our dreams of epic fast bowler.Instead, we need to create the competitive culture. There needs to be a pecking order that is fluid and very deterministic to encourage higher competitive outcome.
For now, Shami is our #1, Ishant is our #2. Those two, if fit, should play. Then, it should be Pandya, Bumrah & Bhuvi. Then it should be Yadav and Aaron. 

 

This gives us a pool of 7 bowlers, of which most 'hit the deck hard & bowl fast all day long or atleast, want to' bowlers. 

#3 & possibly 4 pacers may need a pure 'test-to-test, perform or perish' mentality.

 

The objective for us should be to rest Shami for AUS test #4 or if the series is already decieded and give chance to another candidate.This also preserves Shami.Shami is a bit brittle - he bowls well for long spells with good speed in tests, but he can't take 4-5 tests on the trot too often.

Of the minimum six fast bowling slots in SL, we should give 2 to the new-commers (i.e., not Shami/Ishant).

 

Against Bangladesh, we may want to prepare pacy wickets and check out a 3 pacers + 2 spinners attack. 

This gives us a six test slots (or more, depending on Injury) to try out for our future #3/4 pacers. 

 

Bhuvi:

Even if Bhuvi was only ever effective overseas, we still have to keep him in the picture and give him 1 in 3-5 test opportunities this year.

Because in England, atleast a test or two in South Africa, in New Zealand- Bhuvi will be necessary. You can't just expect  guy to show up in test cricket after 1 whole year, overseas and take 4-5 wickets.   Bhuvi should get atleast two tests over this year (IIRC we should be playing 9 tests this year ?) If he doesnt do well, he should get 1 test in RSA + 1 test in ENG and if he still sucks, back of the bus he goes.

 

Bumrah :

Has earned atleast a tryout against SL/Bangladesh to get his test feet wet. We should give him some chances and see how it goes. a 2-3 test window, epscially against SL/BD can be highly beneficial to him.

 

Pandya:

 

Has earned a quick look into the team, but right now, the focus should be spinning pitches, 2 pacers + 3 spinners doom of hell for AUS. We may want to win series first vs AUS than 'develop talent', so maybe he should be the guy to replace Shami for 4th test, if things go well. 

 

Yadav:
As of now, Yadav deserves a demotion. He has gotten an extended run and has been the weak link of our pace attack. At this point, we know what Yadav is going to get us, especially overseas. Bumrah/Padya needs to be given a chance- though i am skeptical about Pandya being effective in the longer format, he should be ahead of Yadav at this point.

 

Aaron:

Has been away too long, hasn't done much. Has raw pace, but needs to do more than bowl ram-rod straight and full. Still has hope, because he is still young but he is atleast the next Ranji away from being back in the test team. 

 

*Addendum:

A new bowler X can possibly emerge in the scenario that most of the bowlers perform ordinarily, but it most likely won't be the case.

 

As for spinners, if we play 3 spinners vs AUS & SL, we can try our spinner #3 for 6-7 tests. Probably won't be very effective overseas but as of now, Jayant has earned the right to be our #3 in tests. His batting ability is a unique, but legitimate development that needs to be given some exposure.

We should play him, unless he is ineffective- then we can try another spinner and see how it goes. 

Atleast, this is what i think should be the case, because IMO, this is how professional franchises in North America (who, IMO are far more ruthless and methodical at team-building tend to operate, in terms of 'filling the ranks and developing a young team'

 

 

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, Cricketics said:

Those players as they mature are bound to get faster. I will give players like Pandya and Bhuvi credit of improving pace just by wanting to do well in international cricket.

 

Quite the opposite happened to most pacers in the past..... they lost pace as time progressed.

[Cricketics]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

If we did not have this  " policy " of pace needed ....we would have seen Shami and Bumrah bowl 10 k slower and  then they would have been less effeective.....has happened with many a  " good "  pacer in the past as that was our bowling culture

There is no policy still and hence Vinay Kumar got selected too not long ago and so did other seamers. 

 

I was explaining to multi this

And hence I have said we need to keep successfull bowlers not just random fast bowlers who won't do anything in terms of maintaining any culture. If we see a fast bowler, does not mean he should play every game for India to maintain a bowling culture or start a bowling culture even though he is bowling trash in ODI's. We need to keep good ones like Shami and Bumrah only and move on from bowlers like Umesh. 

[Cricketics]

1 minute ago, MultiB48 said:

thats the sad part that he failed,over that last few years it was good that he got his chances, if the quicker pacers like shami umesh aaro had succeeded it would have created a good atmosphere for pace bowling in india but having failed (except shami)i dont think we have lost anything ,we always had a negative mindset towards bowling with effort.i understand they have not done their job but  i only have a problem when people dont understand why these guys were backed .

 

 

No one has problem in backimg and understanding why he was backed. People are still wanting him to play in test for now even though he has been a bit inconsistent but he has worked for us so so far, so good there in test cricket, but one day cricket is very skillfull game too, so we can can continue with bim and need to find other options. And contrary to some believing that it will destroy the culture, well that is just over estimating things. It won't destroy any culture. No one in India is excited by Umesh the ODI bowler. There are many who want to do Shami and Bumrah though and these guys will carry the culture forward but players like Umesh can actually play a part in destroying it and ensuring no kid takes up fast bowling after seeing how much ounishment a bowler has to face in twenty20 and 50 overs. 

[Muloghonto]

31 minutes ago, express bowling said:

That is what has changed in the last test series vs England and the ODI series vs NZ.....seems like you have not watched them properly.

 

Infact, Umesh has been far more accurate in test matches starting from the SA series in 2015.  He has an ER of 2.83 starting from that time compared to his ER  of 4.31 before that

 

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
unfiltered	26	50	709.5	123	2648	68	5/93	7/103	38.94	3.73	62.6	1	0	Profile
filtered	11	22	280.5	69	797	20	4/41	5/41	39.85	2.83	84.2	0	0

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/376116.html?class=1;spanmin1=05+Nov+2015;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
unfiltered	2011-2016	26	50	709.5	123	2648	68	5/93	7/103	38.94	3.73	62.6	1	0	Profile
filtered	2011-2015	15	28	429.0	54	1851	48	5/93	7/103	38.56	4.31	53.6	1	0

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/376116.html?class=1;spanmax1=04+Nov+2015;spanmin1=05+Nov+2010;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings

 

Sure, but he's sucked or the last 4 tests. Back of the bus. As i explained earlier, IMO it would be silly of India to continue giving him test cricket chance, if his performance is not adequate of a #3 pacer, given that he has been given a lot of international games in the last year. 
That is giving too many chances without getting results from a guy who should be hitting his peak. 

If he deserves chances, let him show us he can either take wickets in the bunches or keep batsmen quiet for an entire innings. 

Till then, the ball should be in Bumrah, Pandya & Bhuvi's court. 

Let them fail before we settle for Yadav and his crap bowling with too few wickets and too much runs leaked.

 

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

There is no policy still and hence Vinay Kumar got selected too not long ago and so did other seamers. 

 

Vinay Kumar played just 1 test despite having such fabulous domestic stats....if that is not due to the pace needed policy, I don't know what is.

 

Look at our international pacers who have played more than 5 tests or 5 ODIs in the last few  years..... Shami, Ishant, Umesh, Aaron, Bhuvi, Bumrah, Pandya, Dhawal, Mohit....apart from Bhuvi and Dhawal, all have bowled 135 k + consistently in international matches.  

[Muloghonto]

42 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Muloghonto

[Cricketics]

9 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Vinay Kumar played just 1 test despite having such fabulous domestic stats....if that is not due to the pace needed policy, I don't know what is.

 

Look at our international pacers who have played more than 5 tests or 5 ODIs in the last few  years..... Shami, Ishant, Umesh, Aaron, Bhuvi, Bumrah, Pandya, Dhawal, Mohit....apart from Bhuvi and Dhawal, all have bowled 135 k + consistently in international matches.  

It is not becaue of some policy. They were just good fast bowlers or were noticed bowling fast and hence got picked. Similarly, whenever someone surprises a lot they have gotten picked. It is natural for any board to pick fast bowlers over 120ks bowlers. No board makes it a polcy. It goes without saying.

 

It is more of the IPL affect that bowlers are spending time with top coaches and players like Steyn, Morne Morkel etcc that they are wanting to be like them now. Even Bumrah credited lot of bowlers and shared how he was gobsmacked to be with Malinga and learned from him a lot in IPL. 

 

 

[Mosher]

2 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

No one has problem in backimg and understanding why he was backed. People are still wanting him to play in test for now even though he has been a bit inconsistent but he has worked for us so so far, so good there in test cricket, but one day cricket is very skillfull game too, so we can can continue with bim and need to find other options. And contrary to some believing that it will destroy the culture, well that is just over estimating things. It won't destroy any culture. No one in India is excited by Umesh the ODI bowler. There are many who want to do Shami and Bumrah though and these guys will carry the culture forward but players like Umesh can actually play a part in destroying it and ensuring no kid takes up fast bowling after seeing how much ounishment a bowler has to face in twenty20 and 50 overs. 

You are going off on Umesh based on one poor ODI game. A game where even Bumrah and the England pacers gave away a lot of runs. Please go and check Umesh's stats in the recent ODI's vs NZ. He did a decent job in that series, regularly picking up early wickets with outswing. You were a bit premature in opening that thread and you are doing the same thing here too. Yeah I know you want to see Bhuvi play. I too think Bhuvi should play ahead of Umesh in ODI's to see if he has improved. But not right now. Dont chop and change players after one poor game.

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

It is not becaue of some policy. They were just good fast bowlers or were noticed bowling fast and hence got picked. Similarly, whenever someone surprises a lot they have gotten picked. It is natural for any board to pick fast bowlers over 120ks bowlers. No board makes it a polcy. It goes without saying.

 

 I am not talking about an official policy here....which is why  I  said   " policy "        : )

[Cricketics]

6 minutes ago, Mosher said:

You are going off on Umesh based on one poor ODI game. A game where even Bumrah and the England pacers gave away a lot of runs. Please go and check Umesh's stats in the recent ODI's vs NZ. He did a decent job in that series, regularly picking up early wickets with outswing. You were a bit premature in opening that thread and you are doing the same thing here too. Yeah I know you want to see Bhuvi play. I too think Bhuvi should play ahead of Umesh in ODI's to see if he has improved. But not right now. Dont chop and change players after one poor game.

It is not premature. Many want him out. It is a popular view. Even many of you guys who are his supporter also have recently posted that you want him repalced for someone different. This thread is for the fufure od Indian ODI cricket. If we need to win champions trophy, we need to try different options than Umesh and that can only happen if we drop him. Now if new users come and reply in this thread in support of Umesh, then surely they will be quoted again by us and the discussion will continue which might continue to piss a  lot of his supporters and that is the nature of the forum. Can't help.