Asim Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 2 hours ago, mishra said: "Saeed outfit is listed as a terror outfit by the United Nations" . Which International court with take case filed by a terrorist against UN? Unlike expert Hafeez, Courts, laws have jurisdiction, boundries and due process hence Court of Britain or Germany or Somalia is not going to decide Hafeez's punishment. Kuchh to Socho Asim bhai. Somewhat better ans... All I wanted to know, is it realistically possible to run a trial on him in 3rd country as he himself demanding so...bcz honestly I don't know much about how judiciary can work in such scenarios... but as I was expecting, I myself got nearly declared as terrorist or at least their supporter :) mishra 1
maniac Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, Asim said: Somewhat better ans... All I wanted to know, is it realistically possible to run a trial on him in 3rd country as he himself demanding so...bcz honestly I don't know much about how judiciary can work in such scenarios... but as I was expecting, I myself got nearly declared as terrorist or at least their supporter :) 3rd country....which one China??? he is clearly on the FBI most wanted list-so I am assuming USA is not the 3rd country.
KeyboardWarrior Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 13 hours ago, Asim said: Somewhat better ans... All I wanted to know, is it realistically possible to run a trial on him in 3rd country as he himself demanding so...bcz honestly I don't know much about how judiciary can work in such scenarios... but as I was expecting, I myself got nearly declared as terrorist or at least their supporter :)
maniac Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Don't know about fast bowling talent but even if Hafiz saeed is put out of his misery...I am sure Pakistan is overflowing with such mercurial talent who are just not given that mainstream hype. rahulrulezz 1
Asim Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 3 hours ago, Vilander said: dude why are you disappointed. Pakistani people want destruction and dismemberment of India, it has been apparent for several decades now. Pakistani people want to wage a war on India so we should be prepared for doves on their side to have an anti Indian and pro JUD stance. They love the fact that JUD attacked Indian army, gives them a warm fuzzy feeling. Fascinating to know there are 250 Million Digital; copy/paste, robots like "Pakistani People" who think same, want same, act same...
Muloghonto Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 17 hours ago, Asim said: Thanks for your speech and you can consider me/any other Pakistani Whatever you would like to :) but Hypothetically, lets say some terror activity happens inside Pak and Pak claims its been masterminded from ind by someone, lets say MNS leader or thakrey or any XYZ organization head, just as an examples... and Pak similarly gives sheer amount of overwhelming evidence...!!! but that XYZ person says I cant trust Pak but am ready for a trial in ind or anywhere else, but outside Pak... Meanwhile obv whole of Pakistani nation is emotional, furious... calling him idiot, criminal, terrorist and want his head... tell me honestly would all of this be enough for ind to hand him over Pak and would You demand your govt the same since Pakistan claims and even shared evidences + Pakistani nation is furious over him or u'd rather support for a trial inside ind or any place where Pak possibly biased elements can stay out of it and u can trust the proceedings? Be realistic and honest please... This comment assumes that India and Pakistan are at par in legal jurisprudence. We are not. We are much superior to your legal system, since our legal system does not bend to the wills of our generals or politicians. Pakistan is about 60 spots behind India in the international 'rule of law' index. More pertinently, Pakistan's score is low because of legal interference ran by the military and executive branch of the government, while India's poor score is due to lack of acceptable time-frames and severe over congestion of legal department. Meaning, while your problem is systemic interference, atleast our courts are fair and unbiassed when they FINALLY get to a case.
Muloghonto Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Asim said: Somewhat better ans... All I wanted to know, is it realistically possible to run a trial on him in 3rd country as he himself demanding so...bcz honestly I don't know much about how judiciary can work in such scenarios... but as I was expecting, I myself got nearly declared as terrorist or at least their supporter :) If i am not mistaken, there are only three scenarios where a defendant can be tried in a third country: a) the defendant is caught in a third country that does not agree with the type of punishment prescribed by the other two nations. Eg: If a Pakistani kills an Indian (in India or Pakistan, doesnt matter), flees to Canada and gets caught. In this case, Canada will seek assurances from Pakistan & India (i.e., legally binding assurances) that the death penalty will not be applied, since Canada doesnt prescribe death penalty. If India/Pakistan refuse to comply, Canada will refuse to extradite and try the defendant in Canada. b) The defendant is a head of state/high enough in the government apparatus to qualify for diplomatic immunity in regular day events AND the crime is of a state-sponsored/state-controlled nature. Ie, say the leader of Pakistan starts a genocide in Afghanistan. In that case, if Pakistan refuses to litigate, Afghanistan is powerless: the leader of Pakistan has diplomatic immunity anyways and Afghanistan cannot try the leader of a foreign state in a state-sponsored crime. In this case, the International court of justice will have to do the deed. c) There is no extradition treaty between the third country and the other two countries. In such an example, which is closely tied to scenario a), the trial will continue in the third nation. Edited February 1, 2017 by Muloghonto Asim 1
Asim Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 29 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: This comment assumes that India and Pakistan are at par in legal jurisprudence. We are not. We are much superior to your legal system, since our legal system does not bend to the wills of our generals or politicians. Pakistan is about 60 spots behind India in the international 'rule of law' index. More pertinently, Pakistan's score is low because of legal interference ran by the military and executive branch of the government, while India's poor score is due to lack of acceptable time-frames and severe over congestion of legal department. Meaning, while your problem is systemic interference, atleast our courts are fair and unbiassed when they FINALLY get to a case. 18 hours ago, sandeep said: I don't think Indian government has insisted that these criminals *must* be handed over. But at least prosecute and punish them after the fact - based on hard evidence - not "emotions" of a "nation". How much evidence do you need? There are recorded phone calls that you can hear the likes of Lakhvi talking and telling Kasab and his cohorts what to do. Its been 10 years. Its one excuse after another. Its just so stupid. Pakistan's government has clearly shown by its actions, that if you commit murders, as long as the victims are Indians, no matter how strong the evidence - there are no consequences. This is why your country is slowly degenerating into hell. Don't live under the delusion that you can sow poison and it won't affect you. Final verdict of Afzal Guru case by indian supreme court: "The incident, which resulted in heavy casualties, had shaken the entire nation, and the collective conscience of society will only be satisfied if capital punishment is awarded to the offender." So who exactly in india decides 'collective conscience of society'? and where in world does Courts run on that basis?
Muloghonto Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 49 minutes ago, Asim said: Final verdict of Afzal Guru case by indian supreme court: "The incident, which resulted in heavy casualties, had shaken the entire nation, and the collective conscience of society will only be satisfied if capital punishment is awarded to the offender." So who exactly in india decides 'collective conscience of society'? and where in world does Courts run on that basis? The state is the prosecution- representing 'collective conscience of society'. That is legal jargon, really. As for 'satisfying collective conscience', you do realize that India has a restricted death penalty, i.e., death penalty being applied in 'special circumstances', correct ? sandeep 1
Asim Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 27 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: The state is the prosecution- representing 'collective conscience of society'. That is legal jargon, really. As for 'satisfying collective conscience', you do realize that India has a restricted death penalty, i.e., death penalty being applied in 'special circumstances', correct ? "satisfying collective conscience of society" sounds totally beyond legal systems though... Just my opinion
mishra Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 17 hours ago, Asim said: Somewhat better ans... All I wanted to know, is it realistically possible to run a trial on him in 3rd country as he himself demanding so...bcz honestly I don't know much about how judiciary can work in such scenarios... but as I was expecting, I myself got nearly declared as terrorist or at least their supporter :) It is just not easy, It will require a lot of muscle and strings to be pulled for someone to be tried in third nation. Let us assume Hafeez wants to fight his case in Saudi Arabia. Instead of going in technical jargon I am ytrying to make it simple. 1. Hafeez is already in Pakistan, He must be smuggled to Saudi Arabia for that as there is a Interpol notice against him. If he is caught before reaching Saudi or any other country he is done. So first step should be for him to be released of Interpol notice. 2. Assuming he wanted to be tried in Saudi Arabia and he smuggled himself to Saudi Arabia and became a resident of Saudi Arabia and NOT in Pakistan or India. 2. Saudi Arabia must have no extradition treaty with India or Pakistan 3. Saudi Arabia has to be a very strong nation not to be influenced by states like GB,USA and UN. So no nation apart from China has means to flaunt UN/US/GB and try him. So no one would like to go against UN. 4. Since he is in Pakistan and wanted in India for terrorism, Terrorism should be legal in Pakistan. Since terrorism is Illegal in Pakistan, there is absolutely no option for Pakistan to hand him over to India as he is wanted for crimes committed in India. Alternatively, Pakistan can hide behind lack of extradition treaty and NOT hand him but try him in Pakistani court. Unfortunately thats what is happening.
Asim Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 ^ Right, so practically 3rd country is (nearly) impossible... Then let's say if somehow a case is run against him in Pakistan, can indian authorities follow that and become part of that case (or even can they register a case here?) with all those proves been mentioned above? Bcz even u know handing him over not going to happen since u know Pak/Ind ground realities...
mishra Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 34 minutes ago, Asim said: ^ Right, so practically 3rd country is (nearly) impossible... Then let's say if somehow a case is run against him in Pakistan, can indian authorities follow that and become part of that case (or even can they register a case here?) with all those proves been mentioned above? Bcz even u know handing him over not going to happen since u know Pak/Ind ground realities... If Pakistan wanted, Pakistan would have gathered its own intelligence. It doesn't needs India to provide anything. However the evidence shared with Pakistan regarding direct telephone call details and voice used and money trails, confession details like and various other things. UN has accepted these evidences. There is a big BUT in all this about Pakistan's willingness who so far instead of gathering any evidence, Infact isnt ready to certify shared evidence by India/World(Mostly US) so it can be permissible in Pakistani court. IMO, Pakistan's dilemma is "grounds/basis" on which it will create that certification/verification process will lead to arrest of possibly a lot of anti India Terrorists based in Pakistan. So Not just Hafiz, India or any other country (specially US/Iran/Afghanistan/China) can go after a lot of Pakistan based terrorist which are generally ISI/Pakistani Army asset.
Muloghonto Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 5 hours ago, Asim said: "satisfying collective conscience of society" sounds totally beyond legal systems though... Just my opinion Well ok, but what 'language' do you want them to use when prescribing death penalty then ? As i said, we don't have death penalty as automatic for any particular crime, it is reserved for 'exceptional cases'.
Mariyam Posted February 2, 2017 Posted February 2, 2017 9 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Well ok, but what 'language' do you want them to use when prescribing death penalty then ? As i said, we don't have death penalty as automatic for any particular crime, it is reserved for 'exceptional cases'. It would be an 'exceptional case' re: Hafiz Saeed if we can establish that he either hatched the plot and/or provided material, logistical and/or monetary support. The foot soldier Kasab was hanged. Hafiz Saeed the mastermind would get the same treatment.
mishra Posted February 10, 2017 Posted February 10, 2017 ^ Yaar! I am not even bothered to click on that link till reporter gets a interview with thosands of his Victims give interview to tell the pain/hardship their families are going through after taking the bullets and how future\aspiration of their kids gots over in a flash just because he is at some friggin looney fanatic war sandeep 1
Muloghonto Posted February 10, 2017 Posted February 10, 2017 On 2/1/2017 at 6:04 PM, Mariyam said: It would be an 'exceptional case' re: Hafiz Saeed if we can establish that he either hatched the plot and/or provided material, logistical and/or monetary support. The foot soldier Kasab was hanged. Hafiz Saeed the mastermind would get the same treatment. I know this. I am just saying, the whole 'satisfying collective conscience of society' etc. speech made by the court, is in lieu of 'exceptional case' stipulation. I am not saying there isn't an exceptional case, i am simply saying that the language used by the court, isn't a 'kangaroo court' language, but language used to justify the exceptional case.
sandeep Posted February 10, 2017 Posted February 10, 2017 Such videos trying to portray a murderer as some kind of Muslim Santa Claus only work with ignorant Pakistanis. https://hudson.org/events/1393-a-new-u-s-approach-to-pakistan-enforcing-aid-conditions-without-cutting-ties22017 If you listen to that stream in its entirety, some real smackdowns laid down on Pakistan by the Heritage foundation. Pak going to be in trouble if even a portion of these recommendations become US government policy. Vilander 1
sandeep Posted February 10, 2017 Posted February 10, 2017 Man, People with time should check out that stream. Some whup-ass being delivered for greenBros.
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