randomGuy Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: If its about money, then why are the most PIOs i speak to (who chose to became PIO),including myself, point out quality of life and quality of society as decisive, not money ? I could make more money in India than here actually because my company has offered me the same job, same salary, in India. I am sure you'd realize while 100K+ is comfortable in North America, its 'kings ransom' in India. And still i refused. If it was for money, i'd be heading back in a second. Those are also the reasons (Main reason is money though). It depends which part of India you come from and when( in which era) did you leave India. Many parts aren't developed, many are developed, many are recently developed etc. Plus even if your area is relatively slightly less (if the gulf isn't huge) developed, you will consider other factors ( like family, familiarity, language, food etc.) in favour of staying (in India). The same with quality of society. Younger generations are increasingly more open minded and non interfering etc. Edited March 3, 2017 by randomGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) 45 minutes ago, randomGuy said: Those are also the reasons (Main reason is money though). It depends which part of India you come from and when( in which era) did you leave India. Many parts aren't developed, many are developed, many are recently developed etc. Plus even if your area is relatively slightly less (if the gulf isn't huge) developed, you will consider other factors ( like family, familiarity, language, food etc.) in favour of staying (in India). The same with quality of society. Younger generations are increasingly more open minded and non interfering etc. Soiety isn't what people think. I'd rather live in Alabama, where practically nobody would agree with my hippie lifestyle, than Kolkata, where plenty of people will be ok with it. Because as i said earlier, what matters more than money to me, is law and order, rights, expedient government, good schooling, etc. No part of India has that, which is why i don't want to live in India. I left India in the late 80s. And I've been going back ever since. Yes, money equation has changed a lot. But law and order, speed of governance, quality of education- they have all gotten worse. As i said, i don't want my children to be math wizards by the age of 18, with zero social, sports, artistic and music skills. So why would i want to put them in Indian schools and not keep them in the west, where they get a more rounded education ? Most Indians in India think its a money thing, because they don't know what a properly run, civilized society looks like. This is why most PIOs who became PIOs by choice, cite society and quality of life as the biggest aspects of not returning to India, not money. Edited March 3, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Muloghonto said: Because as i said earlier, what matters more than money to me, is law and order, rights, expedient government, good schooling, etc. As i said, i don't want my children to be math wizards by the age of 18, with zero social, sports, artistic and music skills. So why would i want to put them in Indian schools and not keep them in the west, where they get a more rounded education Not going to argue further on pros of staying back in India. Just few points on schooling: You can get so-called all round development in many Indian schools. Not saying that schools who say they offer this are better.Formal education is very much overrated. Just saying that you would get the kind of schooling that you desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 10 minutes ago, randomGuy said: Not going to argue further on pros of staying back in India. Just few points on schooling: You can get so-called all round development in many Indian schools. Not saying that schools who say they offer this are better.Formal education is very much overrated. Just saying that you would get the kind of schooling that you desire. Hmm. Well, that hasn't been my experience for sure, neither has it been the experience of my cousins,some of whom are 10-15 years younger than me. I don't know how much times have changed in the last 10 years but i remember the days when you'd wake up at 7, go to school for 9, be in school till 3, then go for after-class tuition for 1-2 hours, then do 3 more hours of homework till your brain is jelly and its 9pm, time for dinner, watch a tv show (used to be malgudi days for me) and go to bed. Rinse and repeat, from grade 8 onwards. Grade 10 was just psycho amounts of studying, even on the weekends. No time for sports except a quick game on lunch break- forget getting music lessons or such, hardly any time to hang out with friends outside of school. That is not a life or a rounded education. Sure, i got really, really good at math & science. And at learning book stuff. 1st year university felt like i was king of the universe, as i was in the west, i was getting As with just 2 hrs of homework on weekdays, not even 8 hrs/day in class all days and a bit of studying in the weekend. But it made me realize, how wasted the Indian childhood is, where children hardly get any time to themselves and they hardly ever form into true individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 14 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Hmm. Well, that hasn't been my experience for sure, neither has it been the experience of my cousins,some of whom are 10-15 years younger than me. I don't know how much times have changed in the last 10 years but i remember the days when you'd wake up at 7, go to school for 9, be in school till 3, then go for after-class tuition for 1-2 hours, then do 3 more hours of homework till your brain is jelly and its 9pm, time for dinner, watch a tv show (used to be malgudi days for me) and go to bed. Rinse and repeat, from grade 8 onwards. Grade 10 was just psycho amounts of studying, even on the weekends. No time for sports except a quick game on lunch break- forget getting music lessons or such, hardly any time to hang out with friends outside of school. That is not a life or a rounded education. Sure, i got really, really good at math & science. And at learning book stuff. 1st year university felt like i was king of the universe, as i was in the west, i was getting As with just 2 hrs of homework on weekdays, not even 8 hrs/day in class all days and a bit of studying in the weekend. But it made me realize, how wasted the Indian childhood is, where children hardly get any time to themselves and they hardly ever form into true individuals. Only for science students (11th, 12th class) who wanna study for engineering entrance exams, it is slightly hectic for 2 years ....And that is also their own choice. I hardly studied for more than 2 hrs a day in 11th,12th also (happened to do pretty good in all entrance exams). Till 10th, there was almost zero pressure... Anyways, educate your children that formal education is overrated. If they feel pressurised and don't have interest, they are better off taking it easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 5:12 AM, Muloghonto said: If its about money, then why are the most PIOs i speak to (who chose to became PIO),including myself, point out quality of life and quality of society as decisive, not money ? I could make more money in India than here actually because my company has offered me the same job, same salary, in India. I am sure you'd realize while 100K+ is comfortable in North America, its 'kings ransom' in India. And still i refused. If it was for money, i'd be heading back in a second. These are blanket generalizations that you make. The quality of life in India is decent, albeit in pockets. Furthermore, from my limited interactions with Indian origin school kids in the West, I find them to be a lot less street smart than kids of their age of similar level of affluence/standing in society in India. I haven't met a single chalta purza NRI kid ever. In your hurry to write the epitaph on the grave of India's future, you totally underestimate the children, who have grown up in a very competitive environment. Here are some not so well known lines from a famous poem by the now infamous Iqbal Ghurbat mein ho agar hum, rehta hai dil watan mein, Samjho wahin hamein bhi dil ho jahaan hamaara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 (edited) On 3/3/2017 at 4:48 AM, randomGuy said: At least they are speaking their mother tongue. And many Indians feel proud if they can speak English. Wasn't the mother tongue of all the original settlers. There were as many Dutch, German, Scandinavian too among the first white settlers in USA. The blacks transported as slaves to the USA surely didn't speak English back in Africa. English is as much our language as it is the language of the Americans. Edited March 15, 2017 by Mariyam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Mariyam said: These are blanket generalizations that you make. The quality of life in India is decent, albeit in pockets. Furthermore, from my limited interactions with Indian origin school kids in the West, I find them to be a lot less street smart than kids of their age of similar level of affluence/standing in society in India. I haven't met a single chalta purza NRI kid ever. In your hurry to write the epitaph on the grave of India's future, you totally underestimate the children, who have grown up in a very competitive environment. Here are some not so well known lines from a famous poem by the now infamous Iqbal Ghurbat mein ho agar hum, rehta hai dil watan mein, Samjho wahin hamein bhi dil ho jahaan hamaara In what pocket of India, is the government not corrupt, roads get built within a season, if you have grievances with the government/your neighbour/goondas, it is resolved within 3 months ?!? Or the air is clean, the water is safe to drink from taps, don't have open sewers and regular floods every week due to monsoons ? There is much, much more to 'quality of life' than ability to make money and buy stuff with money. And yes, its obvious that kids growing up in India are going to be more street-smart than kids who grow up in the west. The more structured & organized a society is, the less one needs to be 'street smart' - which basically means ability to read between the lines and take advantage of your fellow man quickly and efficiently. When i went to Ghana a few years ago, i found the average kid there to be way more street smart than the average Indian kid- because their society is even more chaotic and lawless than India. I am not writing an epitaph on India's future, i am simply stating why most of the NRIs choose to settle overseas and what India needs to change about itself, if it is to ever become comparable to the western world in quality of life. Edited March 15, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Mariyam said: Wasn't the mother tongue of all the original settlers. There were as many Dutch, German, Scandinavian too among the first white settlers in USA. The blacks transported as slaves to the USA surely didn't speak English back in Africa. English is as much our language as it is the language of the Americans. English is a means of communication between different nationalities. It's very much recommended to be proficient in English If English is as much our language as it is their's, then it should have been our mother tongue. But it's not. It's all about the numbers. If say just 1cr , 2cr people spoke Hindi, it would not matter if the language became dead (no longer spoken by anyone). But Hindi is probably understood by the largest no. Of people in the world. Probably 30% of the world understands and can speak basic Hindi. So, IMO, it is your duty if you are a native speaker, to see Hindi and only Hindi as your primary language.. Between South Asians (minus Sri Lankans), Hindi should be the primary means of communication. For ex. , Bengali-Bengali apas mein apni bhasha (Bengali) bolen and Bengali-Gujrati should converse in Hindi rather than English. Edited March 16, 2017 by randomGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 7 hours ago, Muloghonto said: In what pocket of India, is the government not corrupt, roads get built within a season, if you have grievances with the government/your neighbour/goondas, it is resolved within 3 months ?!? Or the air is clean, the water is safe to drink from taps, don't have open sewers and regular floods every week due to monsoons ? There is much, much more to 'quality of life' than ability to make money and buy stuff with money. And yes, its obvious that kids growing up in India are going to be more street-smart than kids who grow up in the west. The more structured & organized a society is, the less one needs to be 'street smart' - which basically means ability to read between the lines and take advantage of your fellow man quickly and efficiently. When i went to Ghana a few years ago, i found the average kid there to be way more street smart than the average Indian kid- because their society is even more chaotic and lawless than India. I am not writing an epitaph on India's future, i am simply stating why most of the NRIs choose to settle overseas and what India needs to change about itself, if it is to ever become comparable to the western world in quality of life. Not everybody gets to go and interact with government and goondas in India in their daily life. Its been 2 years since I moved back, I havent had a bad experience with goondas. You watch too much movies or TV to believe QOL is as bad as they depict. kids growing up in US have no global perspective (i chose to make sweeping generalizations like you too). They will muster one language and even dont bother to excel in that. Their whole world is USA and have no clue how to survive anywhete else. Kids need a well rounded experience to be able to cope well and succeed against odds. I might end up back there, but want my kids to be better than koopa mandookas. Rest about corruption, system etc., it is manageable if you earn enough. NRIs dont choose to come back mostly because of how inferior they feel in society if they proclaim their kids live in India. The safety net they get in the feeling of superiority they feel as NRIs when they visit India once in 2 years is the reason they stay back. . mishra, randomGuy and veer 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 4 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Not everybody gets to go and interact with government and goondas in India in their daily life. Its been 2 years since I moved back, I havent had a bad experience with goondas. You watch too much movies or TV to believe QOL is as bad as they depict. Err no, i am an involved citizen. Ie, i attend city-hall meetings, occasionally go to rallies, etc. Try doing that in any corner of India and you have a good chance of being beat up for no reason. Quote kids growing up in US have no global perspective (i chose to make sweeping generalizations like you too). They will muster one language and even dont bother to excel in that. Their whole world is USA and have no clue how to survive anywhete else. Kids need a well rounded experience to be able to cope well and succeed against odds. I might end up back there, but want my kids to be better than koopa mandookas. If you teach your kid mother tongue, its automatic 2 languages. Which is basically what most hindi kids are at. As for surviving elsewhere- first off, the entire point is to live a good life, not see how to survive everywhere. FYI, Indian kids would be chutnee in 2 day flat in Africa too. So what ? Indian kids are not going to be in Africa. American-raised kids need to succeed in America. Not India. And if you are really that concerned about your kid's survival skills, encourage your kid to grow up, save some $$ in his/her 20s and go back-packing for six months through the third world. Will give them more perspective on third world than the average Indian has about first world. Quote Rest about corruption, system etc., it is manageable if you earn enough. How has how much you earn, got to do with not wanting to live in a corrupt system/living in a corrupt system sucks ? You mean to say that if you are in a position to pay a bribe, it still doesnt suck to pay one ?! Quote NRIs dont choose to come back mostly because of how inferior they feel in society if they proclaim their kids live in India. The safety net they get in the feeling of superiority they feel as NRIs when they visit India once in 2 years is the reason they stay back. Not in my experience. NRIs that i know who choose to stay back, like me, cite better quality of life for everyone in the west. India has crappier food situation, crappier water, crappier air, crappier government, crappier everything. And i don't see how earning gobs of money makes for a pleasant day out driving around in Mumbai compared to Toronto. Or how being knee deep in monsoon flood-water while going shopping is avoided if you have a humongous salary. We visit because we don't want to forget our roots. But we don't go back, because quality of life here is so much better for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 (edited) . Edited March 16, 2017 by coffee_rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NareshK Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 (edited) On 3/16/2017 at 1:18 PM, Muloghonto said: Err no, i am an involved citizen. Ie, i attend city-hall meetings, occasionally go to rallies, etc. Try doing that in any corner of India and you have a good chance of being beat up for no reason. If you teach your kid mother tongue, its automatic 2 languages. Which is basically what most hindi kids are at. As for surviving elsewhere- first off, the entire point is to live a good life, not see how to survive everywhere. FYI, Indian kids would be chutnee in 2 day flat in Africa too. So what ? Indian kids are not going to be in Africa. American-raised kids need to succeed in America. Not India. And if you are really that concerned about your kid's survival skills, encourage your kid to grow up, save some $$ in his/her 20s and go back-packing for six months through the third world. Will give them more perspective on third world than the average Indian has about first world. How has how much you earn, got to do with not wanting to live in a corrupt system/living in a corrupt system sucks ? You mean to say that if you are in a position to pay a bribe, it still doesnt suck to pay one ?! Not in my experience. NRIs that i know who choose to stay back, like me, cite better quality of life for everyone in the west. India has crappier food situation, crappier water, crappier air, crappier government, crappier everything. And i don't see how earning gobs of money makes for a pleasant day out driving around in Mumbai compared to Toronto. Or how being knee deep in monsoon flood-water while going shopping is avoided if you have a humongous salary. We visit because we don't want to forget our roots. But we don't go back, because quality of life here is so much better for everyone. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Of course, if you live in the BIMARU belt you are pretty much f ucked. But West, South and North are growing quite well with good improvement in social indicators. If you live in any of the big cities and study and work hard enough to beat the competition, you can have a decent chance of getting a good salary which is not out of reach of a middle class family nowadays and you can overall afford a decent quality of life. Its not like we all live in impoverished neighborhoods and struggle for days without electricity or water. There are good schools, good health care, good entertainment options, shopping centers, fast internet options at least in metros and the situation is better compared to 80s or 90s. But that's not to say we can compare with the standard of living or luxury available in the west or the amount of freedom or opportunities which they have or the sense of security they may have. They have their own set of problems too but they have it much better. But I would still say its a decent trade off if you choose to stay here because you still have your friends and family around you and being able to live in a country and culture which is your own and being able to celebrate festivals with them etc. You cant buy that or replace it with anything in the world. Perhaps our future generations can have the best of both worlds. Being able to live in our own homeland while having a great quality of life. Edited March 17, 2017 by NareshK Book_Worm, Muloghonto and Laaloo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brainfade Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 14 minutes ago, NareshK said: The truth is somewhere in the middle. Of course, if you live in the BIMARU belt you are pretty much f ucked. But West, South and North are growing quite well with good improvement in social indicators. If you live in any of the big cities and study and work hard enough to beat the competition, you can have a decent chance of getting a good salary which is not out of reach of a middle class family nowadays and you can overall afford a decent quality of life. Its not like we all live in impoverished neighborhoods and struggle for days without electricity or water. There are good schools, good health care, good entertainment options, shopping centers, fast internet options at least in metros and the situation is better compared to 80s or 90s. But that's not to say we can compare with the standard of living or luxury available in the west or the amount of freedom or opportunities which they have or the sense of security they may have. They have their own set of problems too but they have it much better. But I would still say its a decent trade off if you choose to stay here because you still have your friends and family around you and being able to live in a country and culture which is your own and being able to celebrate festivals with them etc. You cant buy that or replace it with anything in the world. Perhaps our future generations can have the best of both worlds. Being able to live in our own homeland while having a great quality of life. Great post! But the bottom line is that there is no one-size-fits-all answer. Every family makes choices based on their particular situation - not based on one ideal or the other. And people have different levels of risk-tolerance. It is simply not anyone's place to judge - one way or another. I came here in the '90s, when there was very little scope for a botanist/plant biochemist to flourish in India. I got a PhD in the late '90s with the idea of returning. Frantically looked for jobs in India, but nothing worked out. Got a great gig here, started a family, and never looked back. I relish the freedom and security I currently possess. We assimilated, made friends of many cultures, celebrate all festivals from Pongal to Easter to Thanksgiving to Deepavali to Christmas, enjoy American football as well as Indian cricket. I may get that in India too, just like some of my friends who moved back. But at this point in my life and career, I am not willing to take a chance, give up the friendships I made here, and transplant my kids back and forth, if it does not work out. Who am I to judge the people who went back, and why should they judge me? Cricketics, Muloghonto, randomGuy and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 On 3/17/2017 at 7:35 PM, Brainfade said: Great post! But the bottom line is that there is no one-size-fits-all answer. Every family makes choices based on their particular situation - not based on one ideal or the other. And people have different levels of risk-tolerance. It is simply not anyone's place to judge - one way or another. I came here in the '90s, when there was very little scope for a botanist/plant biochemist to flourish in India. I got a PhD in the late '90s with the idea of returning. Frantically looked for jobs in India, but nothing worked out. Got a great gig here, started a family, and never looked back. I relish the freedom and security I currently possess. We assimilated, made friends of many cultures, celebrate all festivals from Pongal to Easter to Thanksgiving to Deepavali to Christmas, enjoy American football as well as Indian cricket. I may get that in India too, just like some of my friends who moved back. But at this point in my life and career, I am not willing to take a chance, give up the friendships I made here, and transplant my kids back and forth, if it does not work out. Who am I to judge the people who went back, and why should they judge me? Agree, To each his own, I had to come back for personal/family reasons. So, there is no way to generalize one way or the other. I was only countering the other poster how he generalized the QOL in India. It is as good or as bad as one can perceive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 2 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Agree, To each his own, I had to come back for personal/family reasons. So, there is no way to generalize one way or the other. I was only countering the other poster how he generalized the QOL in India. It is as good or as bad as one can perceive. How is QOL in India vs Canada a 'generalization' ?? You keep saying one can make as much money in India as they want these days and 'situation is not as bad as it was in the 90s'. Which to me, is the fundamental reason entire india (that is, where its not pristine nature but humans live) looks like a big giant dump. Coz Indians don't care about anything else except money and whats inside their homes. So maybe instead of seeing it as a generalization, see it as your idea of 'QOL' is a lot different than mine. Yes, everyone obviously have personal, individual reasons for going back/staying in India or not going back. But to say QOL in India is comparable to the west, is simply not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Muloghonto said: So maybe instead of seeing it as a generalization, see it as your idea of 'QOL' is a lot different than mine. Exactly. And you are generalizing by saying qol in kaneda is better. Quote Yes, everyone obviously have personal, individual reasons for going back/staying in India or not going back. But to say QOL in India is comparable to the west, is simply not true. What is your idea of qol? cleaner amenities, better roads, cleaner people on streets? For me it is having quality family life with grandparents living close by visiting and having a ground influenc on kids upbringing. I miss that there and I value it better than others about living conveniences. I have comparable coveniences here plus I get more , which I cant afford there. I feel qol is better in India. Edited March 19, 2017 by coffee_rules gattaca 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Exactly. And you are generalizing by saying qol in kaneda is better. What is your idea of qol? cleaner amenities, better roads, cleaner people on streets? For me it is having quality family life with grandparents living close by visiting and having a ground influenc on kids upbringing. I miss that there and I value it better than others about living conveniences. I have comparable coveniences here plus I get more , which I cant afford there. I feel qol is better in India. Quality of life is pretty much exactly what it says - quality of things that make up your life. The air you breathe, the roads you drive on. The house you live on, the streets you walk on, the food you eat. the schools you go to. The extracurriculars you do. The laws that protect you, the system (justice) that you have access to. All these things directly impact the quality of someone's life. The conveniences you speak of, is just money. Thats it. The houses you live in Canada are better built, the schools have way more amenities, the air is way cleaner, the roads are way better, don't have to deal with load shedding even once a year, much more variety and higher quality of food availability. Practically everything you have access to when u wake up till you go to bed, is better here than in India. And lets not event talk about law and order and the mentality it breeds when its lacking. There is a reason why Indians, despite being the world's largest democracy, do not understand fundamental human rights. I've never come across an Indian who thinks or says 'i disagree with you completely but i will fight for your right to express your opinion or live the way you want to'. Indians see democracy as 'majority raj- if majority wants to eat cows, then cows are food. if majority wants to rape dalits, then dalits are to be raped. whatever the majority wants, give it to them'. Why would i want to bring my kids up in such an immoral society ? You ever see Indians get the concept of community service ? or improving the community ? No. We are the nation of 'make our home look like palaces and outside our home, the whole city looks like a toilet. but who cares'. These are not the values i want my kids to have. See this example: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-39319897 Two years and waiting, to change a name ??! This takes 2 weeks in Canada. So no, quality of life, in every measurable benchmark, is lower in India than Canada. yes, you value living close to your parents/in-laws and their influence over the kids. But thats not a quality of life benchmark. Thats an ethos and ethics angle. But i would rather my kids grew up in a healthier environment with more opportunities than be constantly around grandparents( i don't have to choose that actually, since my parents are in Canada already and my wife is American). Edited March 19, 2017 by Muloghonto Book_Worm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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