Crunch Test Match in South Africa. Pick your bottom 5 of the XI

[express bowling]

6. Ashwin

7. Pandya

8. Saha

9. Bhuvi / Ishant

10. Shami

11. Bumrah / Umesh

 

 

--  I will pick Ashwin as the lone spinner as there is no other bowler or keeper who can bat at No.6

--  I will try Bumrah in the test series against SL at home and pick him over Umesh if he does well. Logic is that Bumrah bowls in better areas than Umesh at about the same pace.

-- 5 bowlers are a must as we need to keep our pacers fresh. They are not used to bowling too many overs a day.

-- I would prefer Bhuvi over Ishant unless the track is flat and a work-horse-type bowler is needed to bowl the extra overs on a flat track.

-- Pandya is a must in my team as, there maybe situations in SA when we are under pressure while batting and and a blistering 50 may change the complexion of a low-scoring match. Also, generally, 2 spinners are an overkill in SA>

 

[Jimmy Cliff]

The team that I'd like to see

 

VJ

Rahul

Pujara

Kohli

Rahane

A.N. Other

Saha

Bhuvi

Kuldeep

Shami

Umesh

 

TBH I wouldn't be comfortable with Saha, Ashwin or Pandya batting as high as no. 6 outside the subcontinent. Would prefer a specialist batsman (preferably NOT Rohit or Nair) at 6. If he can do a job as a 5th bowler (like Shankar) that'd be a bonus. Shami and Umesh would be the 1st choice seamers. Looking at the tracks Herath got in SA, I'd go for Kuldeep as the 1st choice spinner. Bhuvi ahead of Ishant as the 3rd seamer anyday + he strengthens the batting to an extent.

 

The problem is I don't think the team will go for a rookie batsman at no. 6 on a tour like this so someone like Rohit may sneak in at no.6 . In that case, I'd settle for Ashwin at 6.

 

VJ

Rahul

Pujara

Kohli

Rahane

Ashwin

Saha

Bhuvi

Kuldeep

Shami

Umesh

 

Which wouldn't be so bad. However, we'd probably end up with something like:

 

Dhawan

Rahul

Pujara

Kohli

Rahane

Ashwin

Saha

Pandya

Jadeja

Shami

Umesh

 

Dhawan would probably marmalize the hapless Lankans at home to cement his spot ahead of VJ. And Ashwin and Jadeja have just got too many wickets in recent times for them to be dropped if they're available for selection.

[kubrickian]

7 minutes ago, express bowling said:

6. Ashwin

7. Pandya

8. Saha

9. Bhuvi / Ishant

10. Shami

11. Bumrah / Umesh

 

 

--  I will pick Ashwin as the lone spinner as there is no other bowler or keeper who can bat at No.6

--  I will try Bumrah in the test series against SL at home and pick him over Umesh if he does well. Logic is that Bumrah bowls in better areas than Umesh at about the same pace.

-- 5 bowlers are a must as we need to keep our pacers fresh. They are not used to bowling too many overs a day.

-- I would prefer Bhuvi over Ishant unless the track is flat and a work-horse-type bowler is needed to bowl the extra overs on a flat track.

-- Pandya is a must in my team as, there maybe situations in SA when we are under pressure while batting and and a blistering 50 may change the complexion of a low-scoring match. Also, generally, 2 spinners are an overkill in SA>

 

Yeah I think they missed a trick by not selecting Bumrah in the test series in SL. Hopefully, he will get picked for the home series.

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, King Tendulkar said:

People selecting Kuldeep over years of superb service by ashwin , jeez really

 

The old toy might still be great.  But I want that new shiny thing.  It may be great or my be crap, or it may be just about OK, but its bright, shiny and new.  

[sandeep]

53 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Ashwin has to be first name among spinners until he proves he cannot take any wickets.He is goo enough to bat at no 6 , if pitch is not a green top  I would gamble jadeja over Pandya. Jadeja is making it incredibly hard to drop him anywhere, even in last test it was jadeja who picked up wickets in first innings.

Exactly.  Ashwin's batting quality and ability is proven, even against pace.  Hard to not play him as the 4th bowler.  The question really boils down to whether to play a 6th specialist batsman or Pandya to bolster the batting, or play Jadeja ahead of Pandya on the theory that the batting gap between them is offset by Jaddu's bowling utility.  

 

Our first choice pace trio is pretty much set in stone - Shami, Bhuvi and Umesh have done enough to edge Ishant to #4.   I can see arm-chair captains make the case for playing Hardik as the 3rd pace bowler - but in reality that is extremely far fetched and unrealistic.  

 

Another plausible scenario is to argue that the Pandya option makes Bhuvi's case for making the team a bit difficult.  But as a self-confessed Bhuvi fan, I will disagree on that.  

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Tibarn said:

We won't win test matches in SA based on our lower order batting, IMO. The last 5 should be selected on ability to take 20 wickets.  That means 4 out of: Shami/Umesh/Bhuvi/Pandya/Ishant 

and

1 out of Ashwin/Jadeja/Kuldeep/Jayant based on whoever is best suited to actually chip in wickets and maintain control at 1 end for the pacers to be rotated. 

 

You are contradicting yourself a bit there - You think Pandya is more likely to take wickets and/or bowl well to be selected ahead of Ash/Jaddu?   

[kubrickian]

Doing the same thing over and again and expecting different results is madness. When Ashwin and Jaddu were picked in overseas tours and didnt deliver (including ODIs), why would you want to pick them again ? Wouldnt you try out different options to see how they would fare ? This is the same thing which Dhoni was criticized for when he was captain but now when we have a seamer all arounder and a wrist spinner, both options we lacked last time around we still want to go in with Ash and Jaddu. Hard to understand this logic.

[sandeep]

17 minutes ago, express bowling said:

6. Ashwin

7. Pandya

8. Saha

9. Bhuvi / Ishant

10. Shami

11. Bumrah / Umesh

 

 

--  I will pick Ashwin as the lone spinner as there is no other bowler or keeper who can bat at No.6

--  I will try Bumrah in the test series against SL at home and pick him over Umesh if he does well. Logic is that Bumrah bowls in better areas than Umesh at about the same pace.

-- 5 bowlers are a must as we need to keep our pacers fresh. They are not used to bowling too many overs a day.

-- I would prefer Bhuvi over Ishant unless the track is flat and a work-horse-type bowler is needed to bowl the extra overs on a flat track.

-- Pandya is a must in my team as, there maybe situations in SA when we are under pressure while batting and and a blistering 50 may change the complexion of a low-scoring match. Also, generally, 2 spinners are an overkill in SA>

 

Pandya a Must?  That's strong words from you EB.  This is a guy who I argued with you back and forth about whether he deserved to be in ODI team!   

 

I have high hopes for Pandya, as you already know.  But I think to start with I still might pick Jaddu ahead of him - Jaddu's usefulness as a test bowler is really under-rated.  His ability to bowl big chunks of tight overs and that too with very little time, helps the rest of the bowling unit in a non-trivial way.  Sure Pandya the batsman > Jaddu with the bat, but Jaddu's bowling impact is more than just his figures, and that, to me, offsets the downgrade on the batting side vis-a-vis Pandya.   

 

Jaddu ahead of Pandya is not a set-in-stone kind of deal however - if Jaddu is rendered completely toothless by the overseas surface and the ball that's in use, or if the surface is an out and out green-top seamer friendly wicket, then its a different story.   

 

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, kubrickian said:

Doing the same thing over and again and expecting different results is madness. When Ashwin and Jaddu were picked in overseas tours and didnt deliver (including ODIs), why would you want to pick them again ? Wouldnt you try out different options to see how they would fare ? This is the same thing which Dhoni was criticized for when he was captain but now when we have a seamer all arounder and a wrist spinner, both options we lacked last time around we still want to go in with Ash and Jaddu. Hard to understand this logic.

 

Fair point on not wanting to play both ahead of Pandya/Cooldeep.  But to select neither is equally foolhardy.  Especially given Ash's proven and improved batting credentials.

[Laaloo]

54 minutes ago, velu said:

pandya

ash

bhuvi

shami

umesh

++

[putrevus]

7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Exactly.  Ashwin's batting quality and ability is proven, even against pace.  Hard to not play him as the 4th bowler.  The question really boils down to whether to play a 6th specialist batsman or Pandya to bolster the batting, or play Jadeja ahead of Pandya on the theory that the batting gap between them is offset by Jaddu's bowling utility.  

 

Our first choice pace trio is pretty much set in stone - Shami, Bhuvi and Umesh have done enough to edge Ishant to #4.   I can see arm-chair captains make the case for playing Hardik as the 3rd pace bowler - but in reality that is extremely far fetched and unrealistic.  

 

Another plausible scenario is to argue that the Pandya option makes Bhuvi's case for making the team a bit difficult.  But as a self-confessed Bhuvi fan, I will disagree on that.  

Let us not turn Ashwin into Kallis but he is okay to bat at no6 atleast for couple of tests and take a call from there.Philander will be testing our top three so expect early wickets to fall..So it is imperative that lower order has to bat well to give scores which bowlers can defend.

 

Our batting has been incredibly fragile away from subcontinent.If Pandya is third seamer then you can kiss goodbye any chances of winning.Kuldeep is okay but he is not Jadeja or Ashwin.Ashwin if does well he will go down as one of the best spinners ever to have played this game.

[WeStMiDz]

10 minutes ago, kubrickian said:

Doing the same thing over and again and expecting different results is madness. When Ashwin and Jaddu were picked in overseas tours and didnt deliver (including ODIs), why would you want to pick them again ? Wouldnt you try out different options to see how they would fare ? This is the same thing which Dhoni was criticized for when he was captain but now when we have a seamer all arounder and a wrist spinner, both options we lacked last time around we still want to go in with Ash and Jaddu. Hard to understand this logic.

This is Indian selectors and team management we are talking about. They go to tried and trusted options time and again. No point giving fantasy scenarios like playing Kuldeep ahead of both Ashwin & Jadeja. Never going to happen. 

[putrevus]

Didn't Kohli play wrist spinner named Karn Sharma in his first test as a captain overlooking both Ashwin and Jadeja. We all know what happened there .Karn sharma vs Kuldeep Yadav in FC cricket are very comparable. Wrist spinner is no guarantee to succeed .

 

Yadav is playing odis now let us wait and see how he does before displacing a guy who has almost 300 test wickets faster than anyone in world.

 

[sandeep]

17 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Let us not turn Ashwin into Kallis but he is okay to bat at no6 atleast for couple of tests and take a call from there.Philander will be testing our top three so expect early wickets to fall..So it is imperative that lower order has to bat well to give scores which bowlers can defend.

 

Our batting has been incredibly fragile away from subcontinent.If Pandya is third seamer then you can kiss goodbye any chances of winning.Kuldeep is okay but he is not Jadeja or Ashwin.Ashwin if does well he will go down as one of the best spinners ever to have played this game.

Nobody's turning Ash into Kallis - that's why I said Fourth Bowler, not #6.     What I do want to see from our team, is a concerted effort to pick an attack that can take 20 wickets.   

[kubrickian]

19 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Let us not turn Ashwin into Kallis but he is okay to bat at no6 atleast for couple of tests and take a call from there.Philander will be testing our top three so expect early wickets to fall..So it is imperative that lower order has to bat well to give scores which bowlers can defend.

 

Our batting has been incredibly fragile away from subcontinent.If Pandya is third seamer then you can kiss goodbye any chances of winning.Kuldeep is okay but he is not Jadeja or Ashwin.Ashwin if does well he will go down as one of the best spinners ever to have played this game.

I'd like to disagree with this. I agree that batting has failed a few times but Vijay, Kohli, Rahane and Pujara have often delivered and have posted some big scores as a unit in Eng, Aus, NZ and SA. What failed Indian team(as always in overseas tours) is the bowling and inability to take 20 wickets.

[Tibarn]

43 minutes ago, sandeep said:

You are contradicting yourself a bit there - You think Pandya is more likely to take wickets and/or bowl well to be selected ahead of Ash/Jaddu?   

Pandya, IMO, is in competition with the other 4 pacers I mentioned. His domestic numbers suggest to me that he is a bowling allrounder more so than a batting allrounder. 

We have 5 potential pacers: Shami, Umesh, Bhuvi, Ishant, and Pandya. I think 4 of the 5 spots should go to pacers, so it would likely come down to Pandya vs Ishant. Pandya for his potential as a bowler (obviously we haven't seen him bowl in SA before) vs Ishant based on if the think tank thinks he is good enough to bowl. 

 

I don't think we can go with more than 1 spinner in South African conditions, so for the 5th spot it is Ash vs Jadeja vs Kuldeep. Ash and Jadeja already have a past record outside of usually helpful conditions, neither has been great, so if the team management picks one of them, it should be on the basis that they think that either of those two genuinely improved from our last overseas leg to SA/NZ/ENG/AUS. Kuldeep is the hot prospect right now, but who knows how well he would do if we try him outside of helpful conditions.  

Edited August 14, 2017 by Tibarn

[putrevus]

13 minutes ago, kubrickian said:

I'd like to disagree with this. I agree that batting has failed a few times but Vijay, Kohli, Rahane and Pujara have often delivered and have posted some big scores as a unit in Eng, Aus, NZ and SA. What failed Indian team(as always in overseas tours) is the bowling and inability to take 20 wickets.

yes they did but India would not be losing 2-0 to Aussies if our late order batting showed some spunk, they lost two unloseable games there.The collapses in two of the last three tests in England where matches were decided after first hour on day 1 you cannot blame bowlers there.

 

Aussies and England series loss I would put blame on batting rather than bowling. You cannot expect bowlers to take 20 wickets on those roads which Aussies series was played and how can you expect bowlers to do anything when your batting folds on first day for 150.

Only SA and NZ is where bowling failed to deliver.IMHO our bowling is never going to our strong point away from subcontinent batting has to make up some of deficiencies.

Edited August 14, 2017 by putrevus

[kubrickian]

37 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Fair point on not wanting to play both ahead of Pandya/Cooldeep.  But to select neither is equally foolhardy.  Especially given Ash's proven and improved batting credentials.

Which will not mount to much in South Africa. If he fails to take wickets, he cant picked for his batting alone. You are much better off picking bowlers who are more likely to pick you 20 wickets. 

[express bowling]

26 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Pandya a Must?  That's strong words from you EB.  This is a guy who I argued with you back and forth about whether he deserved to be in ODI team!   

 

I have high hopes for Pandya, as you already know.  But I think to start with I still might pick Jaddu ahead of him - Jaddu's usefulness as a test bowler is really under-rated.  His ability to bowl big chunks of tight overs and that too with very little time, helps the rest of the bowling unit in a non-trivial way.  Sure Pandya the batsman > Jaddu with the bat, but Jaddu's bowling impact is more than just his figures, and that, to me, offsets the downgrade on the batting side vis-a-vis Pandya.   

 

Jaddu ahead of Pandya is not a set-in-stone kind of deal however - if Jaddu is rendered completely toothless by the overseas surface and the ball that's in use, or if the surface is an out and out green-top seamer friendly wicket, then its a different story.   

 

 

Most surfaces in SA are not suitable for playing 2 spinners.  Since they are playing against India, it is even more unlikely that they would provide a pitch where our spin twins will prosper.

 

Despite all this, we could have played them both if they had done well outside Asia, but the way they bowled in CT17 does not inspire confidence. ( I know the format is different but they were not getting anything out of the pitches  ).

 

Sandeep....both of us wanted Pandya in the ODI side and the debate we had was regarding who would qualify as a true allrounder     : )

 

I feel that Pandya, the bowler, would add more value than Jaddu, the bowler,  in SA if Ashwin is in the team.  If we were to find a surface which may break on day 4 or day 3, then obviously Jaddu would play, although finding such a pitch is unlikely.

 

As I said earlier, a blistering 50+ in a low scoring game, may turn the match around, and I want to keep that option open.

 

Finally.... the way Kohli is impressed with Pandya and keeps praising him on every medium available, I don't see him missing out   : )

 

 

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, kubrickian said:

Which will not mount to much in South Africa. If he fails to take wickets, he cant picked for his batting alone. You are much better off picking bowlers who are more likely to pick you 20 wickets. 

You are spot on bowlers cannot be picked for their batting ability.Their primary job is to take wickets if they cannot do that job they are useless for the team.Batting is always a bonus for bowlers.Ashwin has to pick up wickets if he is the lone spinner. I don't think they are going to play both Ashwin and Jadeja atleast for first test.