India should do something for Rememberence Day

[Muloghonto]

Self-explanatory.

 

[Kaanda pav kilo milega]

Humko yaad karne ki zaroorat nahi babu, hum roz subah gali gali sabzi dene aate hai.

[sandeep]

On 11/10/2018 at 6:46 PM, Muloghonto said:

Self-explanatory.

 

Doesn't really jive with the national narrative, to start celebrating the soldiers who were willing and loyal servants of the Empire that enslaved us.  That's the problem.  

 

But agree - India's contribution to both WWs are immense. And under-appreciated.  Appreciation should begin at home. 

[cricketrulez]

Flag day.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_Flag_Day

 

spent 4 years in NCC. Raised funds every year.

[Muloghonto]

50 minutes ago, cricketrulez said:

Flag day.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_Flag_Day

 

spent 4 years in NCC. Raised funds every year.

I meant specifically Rememberance day - for our WWI and WWII fallen heroes. 

[cricketrulez]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

I meant specifically Rememberance day - for our WWI and WWII fallen heroes. 

not sure about that. next thing we will be saluting the law and order folks at jallianwala bagh.

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, cricketrulez said:

not sure about that. next thing we will be saluting the law and order folks at jallianwala bagh.

why not ?

Its clearly the best way to raise awareness of both our contributions to the two world wars as well as the suffering we went through for it. 

Are our troops not worthy of respect because they fought for the British ? I mean our own government thought that its okay for British employed troops to become Indian troops in 1947. We didn't fire the entire armed forces....so why cant we honor the fallen ones in service to the two pivotal wars of humankind ?

[cricketrulez]

On 11/12/2018 at 2:21 PM, Muloghonto said:

why not ?

Its clearly the best way to raise awareness of both our contributions to the two world wars as well as the suffering we went through for it. 

Are our troops not worthy of respect because they fought for the British ? I mean our own government thought that its okay for British employed troops to become Indian troops in 1947. We didn't fire the entire armed forces....so why cant we honor the fallen ones in service to the two pivotal wars of humankind ?

They did it as a job for an occupier and not worthy of recognition. If you cant see the difference then you can't see the difference between death penalty and murder.

[Muloghonto]

13 minutes ago, cricketrulez said:

They did it as a job for an occupier and not worthy of recognition. If you cant see the difference then you can't see the difference between death penalty and murder.

nonsense. 

The same ones who served the occupiers became our generals and soldiers and then got decorated for it. We need to recognize the sacrifices of ALL our soldiers, regardless of who the rulers were - they were representing India and Indians in world wars. That has to be recognized. 

[cricketrulez]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

nonsense. 

The same ones who served the occupiers became our generals and soldiers and then got decorated for it. We need to recognize the sacrifices of ALL our soldiers, regardless of who the rulers were - they were representing India and Indians in world wars. That has to be recognized. 

nope they were representing the british empire.  we are never going to eye to eye on this.

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, cricketrulez said:

nope they were representing the british empire.  we are never going to eye to eye on this.

irrelevant and incorrect. 
They were representing India ruled by the British. 
A patriot does not deny the sacrifices made on the battlefield, by the ancestors of his own people, while upholding the highest military conduct code of its times, simply because which political entity controlled the nation. 

The Indian army itself, tacitly, does not see eye to eye with you on this, as we have honored and allowed the sacrifices of the same ancestors, who served the british before serving free Rep. of India. 

 

You will never hear Canadians whine about 1812 war not being Canadian because of 'technically no Canada at that time', either. 
You don't see Poles stop honoring the Polish fighters who fought the German Empire under Russian Empire's banner, either. 

You disgrace yourself and your notions of nationalism/patriotism, by refusing to honor the fallen soldiers of our people, who held themselves to high degree of accountability and success in their missions, along with showing the expected professionalism of a true modern army. Its just that simple. These are not 'foreign invading turks fighting for a foreign power'. These are our people. Fighting foreigners (not our own people). Sacrificing themselves and fighting bravely against a war, in which they had every right to participate.

 

You also do discredit to our soldiers, because in 1910s, India did not have a coherent independence movenent, in the first place. 

We had the congress side with Dadabhai Naoroji and officially position our demands as 'Dominion status'. Ie, we wanted to be what Canada/NZ/AUS were at that time - self ruling with foreign policy attachment to British Empire. The Lal-Bal-Pal triumvate worked for total independence, but this was never a coherently expressed, formalized issue till the end of WWI. 

So in essence, our ancestors who fought in WWI deserve the recognition for fighting for what is worth fighting for, with a large part of our own home-grown leaders wanting dominion status, thus making the struggle legitimate ( The triple alliance *was* the aggressor of WWI. Period)

[coffee_rules]

Yes, so much has been forgotten in world history,  that young Hollywood directors (Nolan) makes WW1 movies like Dunkirk, don't even passingly mention the role of Indian soldiers in that very same battle. It's all about poor Brits who died, thousands of Indians died in that bloody war. It's the fault of our commie historians and western racist historians that have whitewashed the role of Indians and their sacrifices in the world wars, just because they were slave soldiers of the Brits. The sacrifice of black soldiers in the civil war and even in WW (Red Tails etc.) is celebrated in movies. We should be making such movies and show to the world what our men went through instead of fluffy thugs of Hindustan like filth. Shashi Tharoor talks so eloquently about Brit reparations for colonial rule, we should be asking them for war memorials in London for Indian soldiers who fought their bloody wars.

[cricketrulez]

10 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

irrelevant and incorrect. 
They were representing India ruled by the British. 
A patriot does not deny the sacrifices made on the battlefield, by the ancestors of his own people, while upholding the highest military conduct code of its times, simply because which political entity controlled the nation. 

The Indian army itself, tacitly, does not see eye to eye with you on this, as we have honored and allowed the sacrifices of the same ancestors, who served the british before serving free Rep. of India. 

 

You will never hear Canadians whine about 1812 war not being Canadian because of 'technically no Canada at that time', either. 
You don't see Poles stop honoring the Polish fighters who fought the German Empire under Russian Empire's banner, either. 

You disgrace yourself and your notions of nationalism/patriotism, by refusing to honor the fallen soldiers of our people, who held themselves to high degree of accountability and success in their missions, along with showing the expected professionalism of a true modern army. Its just that simple. These are not 'foreign invading turks fighting for a foreign power'. These are our people. Fighting foreigners (not our own people). Sacrificing themselves and fighting bravely against a war, in which they had every right to participate.

 

You also do discredit to our soldiers, because in 1910s, India did not have a coherent independence movenent, in the first place. 

We had the congress side with Dadabhai Naoroji and officially position our demands as 'Dominion status'. Ie, we wanted to be what Canada/NZ/AUS were at that time - self ruling with foreign policy attachment to British Empire. The Lal-Bal-Pal triumvate worked for total independence, but this was never a coherently expressed, formalized issue till the end of WWI. 

So in essence, our ancestors who fought in WWI deserve the recognition for fighting for what is worth fighting for, with a large part of our own home-grown leaders wanting dominion status, thus making the struggle legitimate ( The triple alliance *was* the aggressor of WWI. Period)

that s a lot of word salad. I would have preferred if they had laid down their lives killing as many brits as possible. dont; care who wanted dominon status or who the aggressor was. The fight should have been dirty and merciless. including targetiing of women and children of the brits if need be.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by cricketrulez

[Clarke]

 

12 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

nonsense. 

The same ones who served the occupiers became our generals and soldiers and then got decorated for it. We need to recognize the sacrifices of ALL our soldiers, regardless of who the rulers were - they were representing India and Indians in world wars. That has to be recognized. 

You are missing something very simple here; the ones who served the English masters weren't "our soldiers". They were our soldiers only when they served India and not an arm of the British empire. 

[Clarke]

On 11/12/2018 at 11:19 PM, sandeep said:

Doesn't really jive with the national narrative, to start celebrating the soldiers who were willing and loyal servants of the Empire that enslaved us.  That's the problem.  

 

But agree - India's contribution to both WWs are immense. And under-appreciated.  Appreciation should begin at home. 

We would have to be very selective in that case, cannot honor those serving anti-Indian interests at all.

 

This war for humankind is a very Western narrative that OP has bought into; they conveniently inflicted tyranny & genocide upon Asia & Africa and talk about humanity the moment they found a competitor more dehumanizing than them at least in WWII.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Clarke

[Stradlater]

They were Indians and did their job which should be appreciated regardless of political and ideological leanings.

Going by that logic no Indian warrior before 1947 is worthy of respect since they were all fighting against one another for their petty vested interests.

[Singh bling]

1 hour ago, Stradlater said:

They were Indians and did their job which should be appreciated regardless of political and ideological leanings.

Going by that logic no Indian warrior before 1947 is worthy of respect since they were all fighting against one another for their petty vested interests.

This is not so simple.India maybe perhaps only country where Foreigners arrived , they had handful of their own soldiers and employed indians and won entire nation because of them. If I accept your logic then those Indians who fought against Indian rulers were also doing their jobs

[Muloghonto]

10 hours ago, cricketrulez said:

that s a lot of word salad. I would have preferred if they had laid down their lives killing as many brits as possible. dont; care who wanted dominon status or who the aggressor was. The fight should have been dirty and merciless. including targetiing of women and children of the brits if need be.

 

 

So our ancestors are not going to be honored by their descendants, for fighting a war, when their own people were not sure about wanting total independence at that time. What a brilliant piece of logic ! 

[Muloghonto]

10 hours ago, Clarke said:

 

You are missing something very simple here; the ones who served the English masters weren't "our soldiers". They were our soldiers only when they served India and not an arm of the British empire. 

they are our ancestors. 

They did not fight our people in this war. 

They fought for the British, when the dominant ideology of our own home-grown independence movement was that of Dominion status, not total independence. By dominion status, we'd still be committed to WWI as the British Empire would be running our foreign affairs, like they did with other dominons such as Australia, NZ and Canada. 

Why are our soldiers going to lose out based on hindsight, when in their day and time, their involvement was perfectly rational and just ?!?

 

As i said, you certainly dont find this lack of respect towards sacrifices of ancestors from other nations.

Polish people still respect the Polish battalions of the Russian Empire when they fought the German Empire in WWI. They dont whine that 'oh 50 years prior to that Russia invaded Poland, took over and so our ancestors were fighting for the Russkies, f*ck them'.

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

I will give a simple example of how dumb it is to say that since the Indians fought for Brits in WWI, they should not be honored.

 

In 1910s, the Lal-Bal-Pal alliance left the INC, because INC rejected their proposal of 'swarajya' and wanted dominion status, lead by Dadabhai Naoroji & Gopal Krishna Gokhale. 

Dominion status = London controls foreign policy, we control all internal policies. This had a precedent - Canada, Australia & New Zealand were all dominions in 1914. 

So apparently, the Indian army, seen through 2018 lens, was 'fighting for an oppressive power' and deserve no credit. 
Ok.

 

So lets say the Dravidian supremacists, who are all sidelined today, gain a decisive platform 20 years later (just like Lal-Bal-Pal were sidelined in the 1910s and gained traction later) and Tamil Nadu seceeds from India.

 

Then the Tamil nationalists can argue, that TN never voted to join India, Delhi was undermining dravidian culture via hindi impositions and such, TN has been ruled by a north Indian entity for the first time ever under the British (Mauryas, Guptas, Mughals- nobody based in the north has ever ruled entire Tamil Nadu till the British). therefore, the republic of Tamil Nadu, will declare all Tamil participation in Indo-Pak war as 'fighting for the oppressors' and reject their honors, medals etc. Cariappa will also be stripped of any recognition.

Would that be fair ? Because that EXACTLY what we are doing to our ancestors who fought in WWI.